1. #1
    Junior Member

    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    1

    Angry TERC judging .... what gives??

    so we have been competing as a team for @ 5 - 6 years. and we feel we are a respected team (as any team should). we are a consistant team, and as all teams know everyone has good days and bad days. we make mistakes, thankfully we have an arena to practice them in, so we can give good care and knowledge to the people in the streets. the point im trying to make is the judging in the TERC competitions.

    we are very friendly with all the judges , first name basis with all of them. and this might be a good thing or bad, but when it comes to the critique, we get mostly praises, a few "helpful" hints. now scoring... thats a different ballgame. we get beat over the head... like i said before i feel we are a respected team.. but to score 3 -4's in some areas... there a problem with that. at a recent comp. in the unlimited senario we while speading the car (unknown to anyone there including the judges) was off the chassis. so we spread and the whole car moves @ 1'. not a problem the rest of the senario went ok. and when judged.. no one said a word about the auto moving. we thought maybe because it was unknown and not something that we did wrong they decided to pass on it. well they certainly did not pass on the scores. .. forward 2 -3 hours... in the limited senario while the medic was entering the car..(in the judges words) the car moved front to back @ 1 - 2 ""... side to side there was no movement. in the critique they stated there point about the car moving and we gave the reasons for us not cribbing the rear of the car. they heard us out and said... ok we did not look at it from that aspect. scores... 3 - 4 in those areas.

    now how can a car move a foot and another move an inch or 2 and receive the same scores????.

    this is one senario but there are others.. lets hear them and see if we can make changes so we can all be on the same playing field.

    same as the judge from florida in the internationals walking around in jeans and an old turnout coat,,, telling us about safety.. figure that one out...

  2. #2
    MembersZone Subscriber
    NB87JW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Washington
    Posts
    196

    Default

    LI,

    I hear ya. Seems like a gripe for the TERC site. I know there are many judges who come here too. Many of us have seen and heard these judgement call inconsistancies. Just keep up the good work in the field where consistancy counts the most.

    jW
    "Making Sense with Common Sense"
    Motor Vehicle Rescue Consultants
    ( MVRC@comcast.net) Jordan Sr.

  3. #3
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,686

    Default

    Just keep up the good work in the field where consistancy counts the most.
    Amen.

    Competition/judging = "bragging rights"

    Real life is what matters.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  4. #4
    FIGJAM
    lutan1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    I come from The Land Down Under!
    Posts
    1,833

    Default

    I've never been involved in a TERC competition, but in the past have been on a few compteting teams over here in Oz.

    One of the main reasons our team gave up on these comps was some of the unrealistic judging. We had judges that haven't been to an actual MVA call in numerous years judging us on techniques and things we were supposedly doing. We had similiar inconsistencies to what you mentioned also. The other big issue is the "show" stuff that was expected in terms of yelling out commands and instructions, etc. We saw teams turning up with tool belts all over them, knee pads on, extra PPE, etc., yet in reality how often do we see this stuff? WE DON'T!!!

    We came second one year, because we didn't cut enough metal! We moved and cut what we had to, but the judges deemed it insufficient! Go figure?! (We were the only team that year to fully remove a casualty from their scenrio- and we had time to spare!)

    It's what you do on the road that counts- not the comps! Don't loose sleep over it....
    Luke

  5. #5
    MembersZone Subscriber
    NB87JW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Washington
    Posts
    196

    Default

    I couldn't agree with you more Luke.

    But ya know that in Oz you could have clicked yer heals three times and you would have gone home in First Place.

    Some reasons I continue to "compete" in these things is because I make it a fun event, and our team gets to see new tools and some interesting techniques (good and NOT so good). Our last event didn't go so good (all because of judging inconsistancies). Just like yours Lutan we were the only ones to completely remove our patient in the time alotted. Two of the "judges" (who I know quite well) were called in on short notice and neither of them have cut more than two or three cars in their careers. I left smiling though.

    C-ya again.

    Fraternally,

    JW
    "Making Sense with Common Sense"
    Motor Vehicle Rescue Consultants
    ( MVRC@comcast.net) Jordan Sr.

  6. #6
    Junior Member

    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Deerfield WI USA
    Posts
    17

    Default

    You have to look at the competitions as a learning or training experience. Wining is just a bonus. If they could figure a way to get teams to showup, without a scoring system that would be great.

    I think TERC has lost the goal of getting the patient out. Safety of firefighter and patient take first priority then time of removal. What else really matters.

  7. #7
    MembersZone Subscriber
    rmoore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1998
    Location
    Plano, Texas
    Posts
    815

    Default

    A Posting from Forum Moderator Ron Moore

    I observed many of the scenarios at the recent Internation TERC competition in Bloomington Minnesota. Comments made in this Forum are not wasted.

    The TERC committee has new blood in a new chairman and assistant. These individuals are dedicated to changing and improving the system. There is even a new organization called TERC USA chaired by a District Chief from Florida.

    I was asked to assist the new Management Team with a special assignment while I was there. I went into the Pit as a live person crawled inside a car during the scenario set up. This individual served as the 'inside judge' and is wired with a microphone and transmitter. The judges outside, who move around and watch the teams work, actually wore earpieces and were receiving and listening to all inside medic-patient conversation.

    I listened in as one team worked then followed that team through their judges critique. I agree with many of those who have commented; there are some problems with the judging and the judges. Inconsistencies did exist just between what I saw done in the pit, what the judges said to the teams and what the teams thought they did.

    I know that the 'new' TERC is aware of this and I foresee changes in the future. One will be the continuation of a live patient, called the interior judge, inside the vehicle in the limited pit. This person will be wired, they will be equipped with a mike, and they will be a judge who impacts your final score. Maybe that will shift the focus back onto the patient where it belongs.
    Last edited by rmoore; 10-21-2002 at 11:26 PM.
    Ron Moore, Forum Moderator
    www.universityofextrication.com

  8. #8
    Member

    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Puyallup, Wa.
    Posts
    69

    Default Another 2 cents

    Competitions, you either like them or you don't. This is our department's 2nd year competing, and I definitely have seen value in our competing as a training tool. Last year we participated in the International but placed near the bottom. Guess what, it didn't really matter to us. We all learned from being there, watching and playing. More importantly, guys who before may have just had a passing interest were now motivated to come back and do better. We've gotten some new equipment in service, new guys wanting to participate, and put a lot of drill time in covering the basics and learning how to better work together.
    This year we again went to the International and had a geat time. We placed better, but once again it's the people we're going to respond to this year that have really 'won' by us training/competing.

  9. #9
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    burlington fire department, ontario, canada
    Posts
    19

    Smile

    Thanks Ron Moore for your reply to this topic. At the 19th International Extrication Competition and Learning Symposium it was great to see you again and talk shop from outside the pit barricades.

    You know after all your years of being inside the pits for closeups, that 20' closer gives an entirely different perspective of what goes on in those 20 minutes. I always entice team members/captains to shadow judge ( whether they continue the process or not to judges' status). It is always an eye opener for them, and allows them the judges' perspective. This goes for all team members. Judges' are fellow rescuers and not a secret society! TERC has Judges Clinics in an effort to improve consistency.

    Instead of sitting in front of your computers and critisizing, join the organization(s) and have a say in the direction TERC Canada/TERC USA is taking. If you have the energy to sit and critisize a group for trying to expand knowledge in vehicle extrication to assist our communities, then use that energy to help us!


    Mike McNamara
    TERC Canada Chair
    Captain Burlington Fire Department
    Last edited by rescue61; 10-08-2002 at 06:24 PM.

  10. #10
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Feb 1999
    Location
    Cleveland, NY 13042-USA
    Posts
    128

    Default

    Hi Guys, I know I have been out of the Forum for most of the summer but this one was brought to my attention! We do not have a Gawd of Extrication, we have Gawds, If you take the time to read the texts that are out there you seen different perspective on our Job in each one. My Point, There is no One hard and fast rule for all things done! We are engaged in an ART and A SCIENCE! this means that there are tons of different opinions out there. While this does cause some problems in Judging let us not through the baby out with the bath water!The object of the competitions was not and is not to declare a winner! The competition is a vehicle that Drives the forum of Rescuers from a wide area coming together to see how the other guy does and figure out if they can do it better! While It is important for TERC (including TERC USA and TERC CANADA) to continue to devlop its Judges and Judeging standards to provide consistency. That should never be the SOLE goal of the organization. The Goal of Fair and consistant Judgeing is only important to keep those involved involved! TERC is working on this but the FORUM and NETWORKING is what is REALLY IMPORTANT!
    Rescue is the Art & Science of matching your tools, talents and tricks to needs of our customers!
    Carl D. Avery

  11. #11
    Junior Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    1

    Smile

    Carl is right, the main goal of the competitions is to learn from each other better ways to extricate. I had a Chief ask me after we attended a competition one year why we did'nt return with a trophy? I told him we did! the trophy was the education we recieved and the teamwork we achieved by working hard, practicing everyday for the event. The real winners are the communities that we serve. I know who you feel about the judging. I have competed both regionals and at the Internationals since 1993.Many improvements have been made in the area of judging and there will be more to come. TERC Canada has been working very hard at this and with the formation of TERC U.S.A. I hope we can improve in this area very soon. You can get involved by joining TERC U.S.A. and help us make the changes.

    Daryl Newport Chair, TERC U.S.A.
    Last edited by rmoore; 10-21-2002 at 11:26 PM.

  12. #12
    Junior Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Sarnia, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    1

    Default TERC

    Having read all of the postings I feel that a reply is in order. TERC is aware of the concerns with judging at competitions. Being the Chair of TERC let me state that we aware of inconsistancies with our judges. This is being addressed by running judges training sessions at the International and some Regional Competitons. The sessions are comitted to improving our judges. What is interesting though is the fact at this year's International, the session was very poorly attended. Why is this? Is it a lack of interest? Is it a lack of time (Not wanting to give 10 hours a day for two or more days)? Concern of critism. I don't know. I certainly hope for more interest. The firefighters who compete are our source for judges. We need interested people, who want to help. The one thing that makes our organization so interesting is the diverse personalities of our members. These are the people who have made the changes over the past 19 years. On another note TERC USA and TERC Canada are trying to recruit new members, please contact the committees if you would like to help, become a judge or give us input. TERC will be conducting educational seminars and hopefully in the near future a major learning symposium. Anyways I felt it was nesecary to make a comment that TERC is working on making organizational changes and providing a better service to the field of extrication. We welcome people who want to help. Thanks to Ron Moore for providing an update on how we are changing the competitions.

    Richard Boyes, TERC Chair
    RDB TERC Chair

  13. #13
    Junior Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    1

    Default

    LI Cutter:
    I know from were you speak my friend. I have been competing for 12 years now. I have been on the tools, the IC and have Judged a few as well. Our team also is I believe is respected by others including the Judges. Our team has done very well over the years at times, but we have also screwed up and were penialised for it. At our last competition the team was give 3 3's by the Judges in the Unlimited Pit for path for patient egress. During our critique, as the IC I actually questioned one of the Judges regarding his opinion as to the proper path for patient egress to see if I was on the same page as them. This is were the confussion started. He replied "real low" I said huh?. Now I took this as since the car was on its side he wanted us to take the patient out from the lower side of the car as we tried to do. He was actually telling me that we were scored real low in this area. Go figure.

    Anyways to make a long story longer. I belive that I have seen enough accidents in real life and at the competitons to have a pretty good idea as to were the patient is best accessed and removed from a vehicle. So when a judge says you are totally wrong and all three of them give you 3's what are you supposed to think. Well I figure you can either reject it and complain away or you can remember what I see from all this. That is. To know that over 65% of all our personnal both full and part-time have been involved with the Extrication Team and have developed real skills that can be relied upon on at a real incident. As well as help teach others in the department what we have learnt. When my Chief comes up to me and says that he has witnessed first hand other departments who are not as actively involved in auto extrication as us, look like they are disorganised our struggling at an incident and that if he is so proud of way as a department has progressed as a whole, that's enough for me.

    We all feel at one time or another that the Judges are wrong. But you have to believe that what your doing or did at a competition or on the scene was the right thing to do. You have to trust in yourself and your team. Don't let anyone take that away from you. I know in my heart that the new TERC's both in Canada and the US are still growing and learning like we as team members are. I belive that the right people are now in place to make the required changes needed to satisfy everyone who goes to the competitions with both education and scoring.

    Good luck and don't lose faith.
    Kyle Hoag
    Ajax Fire Department

  14. #14
    FIGJAM
    lutan1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    I come from The Land Down Under!
    Posts
    1,833

    Default

    At our last competition the team was give 3 3's by the Judges in the Unlimited Pit for path for patient egress. During our critique, as the IC I actually questioned one of the Judges regarding his opinion as to the proper path for patient egress to see if I was on the same page as them. This is were the confussion started. He replied "real low" I said huh?. Now I took this as since the car was on its side he wanted us to take the patient out from the lower side of the car as we tried to do. He was actually telling me that we were scored real low in this area. Go figure.
    Khoag, there in lies my issues with competitions. The judges are judging you on what they beleive is the correct egress path for the csualty. They should in fact be judging you on the path you took and how you performed it. If you chose that path, then fine, accept it and lets look at how you did it.

    Did you stabilise the vehicle adequately?
    Did you perform glass management safely?
    Did you perform metal movement safely and efficiently?
    Did you perform patient care correctly?
    Did you remove the casualty safely?

    At no time should a judge be judging you on what they beleived was the correct choice to make. Judge the team on what they did....

    Does that make sense? Anyway, I know what I'm trying to say!

    Just like I said in my previous post:
    We came second one year, because we didn't cut enough metal! We moved and cut what we had to, but the judges deemed it insufficient!
    Luke

  15. #15
    Junior Member

    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Deerfield WI USA
    Posts
    17

    Default

    Lutan you hit the nail on the head. The judges are there during the building of the scenario and can see exactly how the patient is positioned and develop a strategy before the team shows up. The team has 2-5 minutes during stabilization to develop a plan with very little patient and scenario detail.

    I totally agree the team should be judged on what they did. If there choice of extrication methods resulted in a longer extrication time then that is where points will be deducted. If there choice resulted in patient spine movement or safety related issues points will be deducted.

    There are 100 ways to do everything. But it all comes down to safety, patient care and time to extricate.

  16. #16
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Feb 1999
    Location
    Cleveland, NY 13042-USA
    Posts
    128

    Default

    [QUOTE]Originally posted by lutan (Edited)
    [B]


    At no time should a judge be judging you on what they beleived was the correct choice to make. Judge the team on what they did....

    [I]Does that make sense?

    To answer your question Lutan(IMHO), YES! I will say it that is a much harder task than it sounds though. It is very difficult as a RESCUER not to look at a scenario/challenge and not develop an Plan "A" (so to speak) But you are correct, We are not there to Judge how they would do compared to "our" standards but to JUDGE them as to safety, RESULTS and organization.

    To speak to the path(s) of egress I go back to the old axiom of "NOSE, TOES and BELLY BUTTON " in line! if you are doing that (meaning you are not cork screwing someone out of a wreck) you are on the target, now if you do it with safety and the minimum amount of time you are nearing a bullseye! Through in a thorough knowledge of tools and operations and good organization and you are there!
    Last edited by Carl Avery; 10-14-2002 at 03:24 PM.
    Rescue is the Art & Science of matching your tools, talents and tricks to needs of our customers!
    Carl D. Avery

  17. #17
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    burlington fire department, ontario, canada
    Posts
    19

    Smile Judging!

    Lutan, you are pretty progressive with what a judge is looking for. You must be experienced in this field. You must know all the definitions on the work sheets (all 13 categories and their defininitions), and where marks fit in. You must have done this before, maybe?

    mike

  18. #18
    FIGJAM
    lutan1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    I come from The Land Down Under!
    Posts
    1,833

    Default

    Mike, have competed in comps numerous times but as I said earlier, I got frustrated by the judging. (THis is in Oz, so we don't have TERC...)

    Comps are an incredible learning ground for techniques and more importantly- TEAMWORK! I support them whole-heartedly from that perspective.

    BUT- and there's always a but! Judge me on what we did in front of you, not what you beleive we should have done....

    If you want to share further thoughts, drop me an email...
    Luke

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register