1. #1
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    Default Extrication hose flows

    As a standard practice, our department lays out a charged hoseline on all accidents.

    Our pumper has the hose, water, and pump, but all of the cribbing, extrication equipment, and EMS gear is in two other trucks. There isn't enough room on the pumper to put it all on there. In a few instances, we have had 3 or 4 people available for accidents with extrication and each person took a truck (small volunteer department). Mutual aid is 10 to 15 minutes away. Traffic control is left to law enforcement. Staffing is always a concern but it would help us out a lot if we could get on scene with all personnel and equipment at the same time.

    We are currently putting together plans for a "crash truck" that will have extrication gear, ems equipment, hose, and a water supply. Are there any requirements or references that specify how much water supply should be available and what capacity the pump should be? I've looked for water requirements in NFPA and found nothing specific for extrication. Does anyone have an answer? Where else can I look? Any other ideas that might work? If someone has any other ideas let me know so we don't have to reinvent the wheel again and again.
    Thanx

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    We are in the process of putting together specs for a Rescue/Pumper. I am not aware of any "Standard" for a Fire Crash Rescue truck, but ours will have a 1250 pump and 500 gallons of water. The thoughts here are that the truck will be sufficiently equipped to give us some ISO credit on top of being the crash rig.
    Richard Nester
    Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.

    "People don't care what you know... until they know that you care." - Scott Bolleter

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    For MVA's - not fire fighting - just having a line nearby in case things hit the fan (which is a great idea) you should not need more than a single 13/4" line available with at most 500gals. There is an awful lot of fire fighting you can do on a car with that much water. Foam system? Get a foam eductor that can be attached to the discharge on the panel and some 5 gallon buckets. This will give you the most bang for your buck and keep the vehicle small enough and inexpensive enough to do the job. If, on the other hand, you need this vehicle to also be used for fire fighting at structures and such, see MetalMedics post.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    We don't pull a line on "all" MVA's. The "simple" extrication evolutions usually don't require it. When there is a "complex" extrication evolution then we pull a "charged" precautionary line. We have foam ( class A & B )plumbed in to our system. Bones is right you do get the most out of your water delivery when foam is applied. Bottom line on deploying a hose line is that it is "better to have it and NOT need it, than Need it and not have it".

    Quietone, it sounds like your pumper needs more extrication supplies. Something is better than nothing. If you don't have room for a Rescue Tool then maybe squeeze on a recip-saw, some cribbing/wedges, "irons" (Haligan and Axe), a tools box with a socket set. With these (and others) tools you could get a start or even complete an extrication evolution before the other "distant" unit arrives. Practice with what you have. Size-ups and set-ups are critical when YOYO (Your On Your Own) for a bit.

    Good luck!
    fraternally,

    JW
    Last edited by NB87JW; 10-10-2002 at 02:14 PM.
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    Our only requirements at any extrication is that there must be a Dry Chem Powder or Foam Extinguisher, or better again, one charged 38mmm line available and set up ready to go....

    WIthout fail this must happen. Even the "small" accidents have the potential for disaster when you start moving metal...
    Luke

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    Did a training class last night, in the rain, and what a wonderful spark show happened during the cutting of a hinge. Just goes to show, even when wet, sparks happen, so be prepared.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    You're spot on 100% correct Bones...


    JW- Your opening comment was-
    We don't pull a line on "all" MVA's. The "simple" extrication evolutions usually don't require it.
    You contradicted yourself JW- you then went on to say in the same paragraph-

    Bottom line on deploying a hose line is that it is "better to have it and NOT need it, than Need it and not have it".
    Even the simple evolutions can cause problems....

    Be safe- All the time!
    Luke

  8. #8
    iceman4442
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    We run heavy rescue for a three county area, and currently run a four seat dedicated heavy rescue truck, with one of our four seat "brush" trucks accompanying it to all rescue calls. Our SOP is to charge a 1 3/4" (about 44mm?) line at every rescue scene (the bruch rigs have 300 gallon tanks). Some of the guys bit*# about it, mainly due to having to re-load it each time, but as was mentioned above, it's better to have it and not need it than the alternative! The rescue truck and brush truck are also both equipped with extinguishers; our SOP also stipulates that there is to be a CO2 within reach of the actual extrication operation.

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    Question Co2

    our SOP also stipulates that there is to be a CO2 within reach of the actual extrication operation.
    Out of interest Iceman, why a CO2?

    A CO2 will have a limited affect on a solids type fire (plastics, timber, paper, etc) and due to the fact that it is a gas, can very quickly disperse due to wind and weather conditions, which in turn will compromise it's knockdown capabilities.

    The other issue is, if it is used in the cabin of a vehicle for example, it displaces oxygen making it very difficult breathe....
    Luke

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    lutan, the only reason i see right off the bat is a dry chem could cause inhalation and aspiration of the patient. that and dry chem wouldn't be good in open wounds.
    NREMT-P\ Reserve Volunteer Firefighter\Reserve Police Officer
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    We have a medium-duty rescue (due to be replaced soon) with 180 of water, a 300 pump, and one 1-3/4" line. Not what you'd WANT to fight fire with, but it still beats out an extinguisher if things get ugly before an engine is on-scene. We run an engine with the rescue truck automatically to calls dispatched as entrapment, but when manpower is short, the engine is sometimes several minutes behind. The rescue also has a Pro-Pak foam eductor (a self-contained foam container and eductor - http://www.tft.com/products/propak/extricat.htm) loaded with class B foam for fuel spills. With the medium-expansion nozzle, it makes nice, thick foam - great vapor suppression.

    Back to your original question, I also am unaware of any standards for how much firefighting capacity you should have at an MVA, but would agree with most of the above posts, i.e. 1-3/4" line, at least 300 of water, and foam if possible.
    R.A. Ricciuti
    Mt. Lebanon Fire Department

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    Not really sure that any extinguisher would be good for the pt. A CO2 extinguisher could be good for a vw just incase that class D (magnesium) engine were to catch. Not really sure on the likely hood of that but hey be prepared I guess
    Mike

  13. #13
    iceman4442
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    Lutan:

    The SOP regarding the extinguisher was in place before I started here, so I'm not 100% sure why CO2 is specified. A couple of our "crustier" guys were here when it was implemented, and they told me that they ruled out a dry chem. due to what RyanEMVFD mentioned above - causing problems for the patient. And yes, if used in a fairly intact interior space, the CO2 would likely displace the breathable air, which would also be a patient (and possibly rescuer) concern.

    The CO2 is usually brought out and sits there (never been used to my knowledge); we do always get the charged line ready, although we're discussing dropping the requirement to one of the 1" booster lines with a Foam Pro unit on it. Any thoughts there?

  14. #14
    iceman4442
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    Thumbs up

    drkblram:

    Thanks for the input - I was leaning toward keeping the 1 3/4" charged; there's nothing saying that we couldn't also pull the booster with the Pro Pak on it, the autowind on the reel keeps guys from having to re-load hose! We have used it to cover some fuel spills at scenes, and it works very well for that.

    I think our booster is supposed to flow 95 gpm, but a couple years back when I was goofing around with it, the best I could get was 85!

    Again - thanks for the input, it kind of reinforces what I thought already!

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