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  1. #1
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    Lightbulb Ladder truck w/pump+tank (pictures)

    I know you guys dont like this concept, but with
    funds getting tighter and more demands for service,
    I think we'll be seeing more of these. A truck
    company aka ladder with a tank and pump.

    I personally like the idea. Get a basic contents
    room fire or vehicle fire and you are making some
    progress vs. telling a "customer" aka citizen
    "We dont carry water, sorry."

    Anyways, heres the photos, sorry about the lighting.
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    Lightbulb Picture #2

    Picture #2, Please let me know what you think.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  3. #3
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    Here, I have an idea! Why don't we take 2 pieces of apparatus - an engine and a truck - sell them both, and buy one of these! Take 4 of the 8 guys who were on the original engine and truck, put them on this piece, make them do twice the work with half the people, and we'll fire the other four! That way, we'll save money on salaries, we won't have to raise taxes this year, and we can screw the firemen once again!

    Stay Safe

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    While I have to agree with PA Volunteer, that is a very nice looking truck!

    *Mark
    FTM-PTB-RFB-EGH

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    Thumbs down PA Volunteer...open your mind...

    Guess we have had different experiences or
    backgrounds in the quint area. I think you
    need to relax and open your mind.

    As far as I know (and this is only me) the
    truck companys aka "ladders" have ALWAYS
    been there and in service. Yes, no one has
    been fired.

    THE CONCEPT (not new either)- Just adding a
    pump and tank to an already existing, in-service
    truck. ANOTHER TOOL TO BE USED TO SERVE THE PUBLIC.

    This actual truck is the perfect example. The
    apparatus that was PREVIOUS to the new one was
    ALWAYS in service but just old and needed to be
    replaced. It was a typical ladder with NO pump.
    THEN it was replaced with a NEW truck and an extra
    bonus. Nothing changed except a new truck...Get it???

    I think you get the picture now. AGAIN, no one was
    fired, no taxes raised. You can remove foot from mouth.
    Last edited by CALFFBOU; 10-15-2002 at 04:25 PM.

  6. #6
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    Exclamation yep

    that is a very mean lookin truck, but i too must agree with PA. i do like the truck though!
    Matt G. Warminster Fire Dept. Station 90
    IAFF Local F-106

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    The bottom line here is you put water and a pump on a ladder truck and it becomes a quint. Now instead of dispatching 2 engines and a truck on a fire, you get an engine and a quint. Where I come from you go from having 9 people to having six (3 per unit). I would rather have a truck with no pump or water to keep the extra 3 guys on scene. I think that is what PA Volunteer is really getting at, not that the apparatus would be sold to purchase this quint.
    I still think it is a good looking rig.

    *Mark
    FTM-PTB-RFB-EGH

  8. #8
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    Default Hmmm....

    1. I am glad you guys like the truck. Since you do,
    I will try to make a special trip there again to
    get a better shot just for you. (I didnt plan on
    taking pics of the truck this trip, just their new
    engine..look for it in the apparatus section soon)

    2. PLEASE UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM SAYING. I think things
    are just different out here in the West Coast
    because Ladders having a pump and tank is NOT to
    "kill manpower, etc". It is just and enhancement to
    an existing apparatus.

    PLEASE TELL ME IF I AM NOT SAYING IT CORRECTLY.
    I DONT THINK YOU GUYS GET WHAT I AM TYPING. THANK YOU.

  9. #9
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    Hey Bouk - there is no need for me to remove any foot from any mouth. Furthermore, you are the one who needs to relax, my comments were not directed at you personally. I have no idea how that piece of apparatus is being used.

    The quint concept has been used over and over again to justify the downsizing of fire departments. That is what is wrong with the quint concept - and its application. If you disagree with that, you need to get out more.

    Used in the correct manner, I have nothing against the quint concept. The best fire departments have firemen dedicated to doing one task, while having skills that will enable them to do that task safely. A quint with 10 personnel has the ability to be a great piece - as long as you have 5 guys dedicated to doing engine work, and 5 guys dedicated to doing truck work.

    Almost exclusively, however, the quint is manned with 4 or 5 firemen, who have the task of doing whatever job is needed when they happen to arrive on scene. They end up doing a bunch of jobs pretty well, instead of excelling at one job. It waters down all the skills found on the fire scene. All too often, it forces firemen to do twice the work with half the personnel.

    Glad to hear that this piece was not used to consolidate an engine and a truck company. Hopefully, it will be used in the correct manner.

    Stay Safe

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    Default Ugh....

    Originally posted by PA Volunteer
    Hey Bouk - there is no need for me to remove any foot from any mouth. Furthermore, you are the one who needs to relax, my comments were not directed at you personally. I have no idea how that piece of apparatus is being used.
    Geez-I dont know how many more times I would need to type
    this. I have explained already how it was used, didnt
    you read? I will break it down for you more so you can
    understand. (grunt, grunt)

    Step #1- Both engine and OLD ladder (no pump) both
    in service, FULLY MANNED, good. (ugh, ugh)

    Step #2- Ladder truck broke, no workie. This Bad!

    Step #3- Department orders new Ladder with pump.
    (New toy- yeeeaa!! This make happy)

    Step #4- Again, both engine and NEW ladder (w/pump)
    in service, FULLY MANNED as before. (This is good,
    Fireman smile, do the "happy dance".)

    I think that is pretty clear, right? YES, I understand
    YOUR Chief/Bean-counter/fire the Firefighters concept.
    (That bad) But that didnt happen here AND IT IS NOT THE
    STANDARD FOR EVERY PLACE. (That good)

    Oh- I think the tractor was built by HME and the trailor was
    Westates. (happy dance again)

    Thanks...
    Last edited by CALFFBOU; 10-15-2002 at 05:36 PM.

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    Default

    (GRUNT)
    Mark understand, understood from first explanation...
    FTM-PTB-RFB-EGH

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Ugh....

    Originally posted by brettbouk
    I dont know how many more times I would need to type
    this. I have explained already how it was used, didnt
    you read. I will break it down for you more so you can
    understand. Geez...
    That is why I said this.
    Originally posted by PA Volunteer
    Glad to hear that this piece was not used to consolidate an engine and a truck company. Hopefully, it will be used in the correct manner.
    Want to explain it for us again?

    Stay Safe

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    Default Ugh again...

    Hopefully, it will be used in the correct manner.
    Always was used in correct manner. Now with a bonus!

    Bro- I think every one caught my point the first time around
    except you. I thought my explaination of the whole purchase
    was pretty clear.

    The bottom line- I like the concept (with no one fired). More
    often than not, the ladder might be the only unit to respond
    to working house fire and that little 200-300 gallon tank of
    water might be the difference in saving a life and thats
    why we (or atleast me) are here. (Grunt, me Fireman now stand,
    pick knuckes off of ground and cheer!)

    Ugh, ugh, me tired now. Knuckles dragging up from ground
    to type make Fire-Cave-Man hungry. Time to smoke peace
    pipe and hug......
    Last edited by CALFFBOU; 10-15-2002 at 05:32 PM.

  14. #14
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    My point was ...

    A lot of things start out as good ideas, with good intentions, are very innocent ... down the road, those intentions can be twisted, and when something powerful falls into evil hands, the safety of the free world is at stake (overdramatization for effect)!

    Hence ... Hopefully, it will be used in the correct manner.

    I understand what you are saying. Hopefully that will remain true for years to come. That is my point.

    Stay Safe

  15. #15
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    Angry Wait A Minute!

    brettbouk - Nice truck, nice photos, all Truck companies should have a pump, hose, and at least 300 gal. of water.

    PA Vol - I agree with you when it comes to a career department. In career departments, the apparatus should remain seperate. Never do away with a true Truck Company and replace it with a Quint, bad move!

    As for Mark440 - SUICIDE COMPANIES RIDE WITH (3) PERSONNEL! Engine Companies and Truck Companies should both be manned with a minimum of (4) personnel. There is a reason why fire apparatus comes with a minimum of (4) seats. My department rides with (6) on the Engine and (6) on the Truck. Three man companies should be illegal in the US!
    Chris Shields
    Lieutenant / EMT
    Haz-Mat Technician
    East Syracuse Fire Dept
    Onondaga County, NY

  16. #16
    Jolly Roger
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    Question Specifications

    How about more specifications on the truck?
    • How big is the stick?
    • How many of what size ground ladders does it have?
    • How much of what sizes of hose does it carry?
    • How big is the tank?
    • How big is the pump?
    • How is it staffed?
    • What other equipment does it have?

    I'd like to see more pictures if you have time.
    Thanks,
    Ken

  17. #17
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    Default

    Well put.

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    I think it is a good idea to have a pump with the truck. For this reason--

    You all know the day will come when you have an engine company on a box alarm in the next district/town and you have a couple of emergenices of your own. Well guess who can do some work now? The truck can put out fire! YAYAYAY

    But seriously, this just opens the options for 'Just in Case' circumstanes
    Not necessarily the views of my dept., village, nor residents.

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    Default Wow...

    All I wanted to do was just share these photos with
    you guys, not stir up the hornets nest. To Jolly Roger-
    here is their website- http://fire.ucdavis.edu . I will
    try to get more pictures for you and everyone else!

    Also, I think the Huntington Beach, CA Fire Dept. was
    the first to add a tank to a tiller ladder truck.
    (I might be wrong) They might be able to give you some
    insight as well.

    Thanks, Brett

    PS- I am with Mark on the issue. I dont know why/where
    there has to be 4 people on a truck. 3 Firefighters
    work just fine. And Marky, I like RED too, but I am
    not a Chief yet either.
    Last edited by CALFFBOU; 10-16-2002 at 04:21 PM.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Wait A Minute!

    Originally posted by SIGNAL99.COM
    As for Mark440 - SUICIDE COMPANIES RIDE WITH (3) PERSONNEL! Engine Companies and Truck Companies should both be manned with a minimum of (4) personnel. There is a reason why fire apparatus comes with a minimum of (4) seats. My department rides with (6) on the Engine and (6) on the Truck. Three man companies should be illegal in the US!
    When you grow up and become my Chief, you can feel free to lecture me on stuff that is plainly obvious everyday I go to work! But until then have a "Spoonfull 'O shut the hell up". You don't think I know what I ride isn't safe? Thanks for stating the obvious! You'll make a great Chief someday, but why don't you break the mold and kindly show me (and the rest of my department and every other department in this country) how to put 4 men on a company with the finances we already have. You think I'm getting paid extra to ride short? Maybe you think my Chief is keeping that extra 4 mens' salaries' for himself. Hmmm, maybe next year he will hire you to run our website with the money he is saving by only running 3 man companies.

    I still think the truck in the picture is good looking, be better if it was RED.

    -----> I have to add one last thing, if "there is a reason fire apparatus comes with a minimum of (4) seats" then please tell me, Mr. 99 Fire Chief wannabe, how come you can order a two door commercial chasis fire apparatus with only (Hold onto your keyboards here) THREE (3) seats? Whats up with that? I wonder if the apparatus makers know you aren't approving of this concept! But wait, who cares what you think?

    Thanks Brett!

    *Mark
    Last edited by mark440; 10-16-2002 at 07:51 PM.
    FTM-PTB-RFB-EGH

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    Default Mark...

    Look up at the bottom of my last post...Thanks!

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    Default

    Questions as I read this thread...

    1. What is a "True" truck company? What is a false one? Is a quint that carries EXACTLY the same equipment as a dry ladder, plus engine equipment, somehow less of a truck? How?

    2. Why is a tower ladder never called a quint? I think we better stop doing that right now if there is a good reason. Where did you get these definitions, NFPA 1901 is pretty silent on your definitions.

    3. Why is the more versatile piece good for volunteers, but career guys should get the more limited piece?

    4. Why would you reduce manpower to a run when you go to a quint? The 2 big examples of the quint concept (St Louis and Richmond) in the US INCREASED the number of FF on a box when they went to quints, they reduced overall firefighters though.

    5. Speaking of things starting out as good idea and falling into the wrong hands... Could the same argument be made for SCBA, large diameter hose, thermal imagers? Didn't all those things make our job more efficient too? Possibly allow for less men? Do you just reject the more versatile truck cause someone could misuse it?

    Seems to me if that is the case why would you trust your politicians to believe that you even had to maintain a stick if you can't show them why the quint doesn't decrease necessary manpower. Manning is geting cut all over the US.. it sucks, but not even 9/11 has done anything to reverse the trend. But if its going to happen, why not make sure you have the piece that can be the most use?

    6. If the BEST departments have dedicated personnel to one job, do they never cross the floor to work overtime or fill in? Don't all firefighters have to be proficient at engine and truck work? Do only engine firefighters work engine OT? I think you do a diservice to the job when you imply that cross training and cross responsibilities somehow result in poor results.

    Every single argument made here is a people one, not an apparatus one.

  23. #23
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    Talking nice ride

    Nice ride but a little on the light colored side I think

    no need to get the color argument going.

    nice ride
    wsfiremn
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  24. #24
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    heh, when I posted before I forgot to mention something, in my town, we have been running a truck with pump since 1980. It is a Mack with a single stage pump (I forget the stats) and a Pirsch ariel 100' ladder.
    Not necessarily the views of my dept., village, nor residents.

  25. #25
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    Originally posted by Halligan84
    1. What is a "True" truck company? What is a false one? Is a quint that carries EXACTLY the same equipment as a dry ladder, plus engine equipment, somehow less of a truck? How?
    It's not the equipment you carry, it is how you use it.
    Originally posted by Halligan84
    2. Why is a tower ladder never called a quint? I think we better stop doing that right now if there is a good reason. Where did you get these definitions, NFPA 1901 is pretty silent on your definitions.
    I'm sure I'm technically incorrect on this, but I call any truck/tower/aerial with a tank/pump a quint. For me, it just means a truck/tower/aerial w/ a tank/pump.
    Originally posted by Halligan84
    3. Why is the more versatile piece good for volunteers, but career guys should get the more limited piece?
    I'm not sure. To me, volunteer or paid, it makes no difference. The goal is still the same.
    Originally posted by Halligan84
    4. Why would you reduce manpower to a run when you go to a quint? The 2 big examples of the quint concept (St Louis and Richmond) in the US INCREASED the number of FF on a box when they went to quints, they reduced overall firefighters though.
    Exactly, they use it to reduce the department's manpower. They use it as a cost cutting measure. They simply call more pieces to the scene. It still ends up with someone without a job, and more work with less firemen.
    Originally posted by Halligan84
    5. Speaking of things starting out as good idea and falling into the wrong hands... Could the same argument be made for SCBA, large diameter hose, thermal imagers? Didn't all those things make our job more efficient too? Possibly allow for less men? Do you just reject the more versatile truck cause someone could misuse it?
    No. It is the same argument for both (as it is for anything). Used in the incorrect manner, it (whatever you want "it" to be) sucks. Used in the correct manner, it could be great. Furthermore, it is not the "its" fault, it is the person's fault who is using it.
    Originally posted by Halligan84
    Seems to me if that is the case why would you trust your politicians to believe that you even had to maintain a stick if you can't show them why the quint doesn't decrease necessary manpower. Manning is geting cut all over the US.. it sucks, but not even 9/11 has done anything to reverse the trend. But if its going to happen, why not make sure you have the piece that can be the most use?
    So we should just sit around and let them unemploy more firemen and leave areas more stripped than ever? That's not my way of doing things, and hopefully it isn't yours.
    Originally posted by Halligan84
    6. If the BEST departments have dedicated personnel to one job, do they never cross the floor to work overtime or fill in? Don't all firefighters have to be proficient at engine and truck work? Do only engine firefighters work engine OT? I think you do a diservice to the job when you imply that cross training and cross responsibilities somehow result in poor results.
    If I do one job 9 out of 10 times I go to a fire, I'm going to be the best at that one job. Just like if someone else does another job 9 out of every 10 fires, they will be the best at that one job. If we are both the best at our jobs, the fire goes out quicker, and everything is done more safely. No one ever said we can't do more than one job, and along those lines, it would be retarded to not be good at multiple jobs. Obviously, everyone needs to know how to do everything. However, if everyone can be excellent at their one assignment, and everyone knows their assignments, that has the potential to be an incredibly well-oiled machine.
    Originally posted by Halligan84
    Every single argument made here is a people one, not an apparatus one.
    Exactly, a tool is only a tool. It is up to the person to use it correctly.

    Stay Safe

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