1. #1
    MembersZone Subscriber
    rmoore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1998
    Location
    Plano, Texas
    Posts
    815

    Default Impossible Roof Removal??

    Pickup truck rollover, people trapped. Let's say both doors are jammed and the roof is crushed. You're called mutual aid. This image is what you see when you arrive. The EMS crew states that they have decided that total roof removal is what they want to do. They ask you, "Can you do it?"

    Will you do it?
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Ron Moore, Forum Moderator
    www.universityofextrication.com

  2. #2
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    MD.
    Posts
    117

    Default

    Can I do it? Hell yes I can do it.

    Will I do it? I dont know, I haven't done a 360 yet.

    Also, I dont usually let the ems crew decide the best way for me to disentangle a patient, if there is a sound medical reason that they want me to extricate a certain way, then I will take that into consideration.

    Without the benefit of other pictures, unless a part of someones anatomy is under the roof, then once I had this vehicle stabilized I would remove the doors, and then access any further need for extrication from that point.

    If the roof had to be removed, then I would cut both A and B posts,and the seat belts, and slide it out.

    Stabilization would consist of cribbing in front of the A posts, and ResqJack system stabilizing the rear section.

  3. #3
    Forum Member
    Weruj1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    NW Ohio
    Posts
    7,857

    Default

    I have to go with the previous poster.........why do I need to remove the roof ?
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
    RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
    LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607
    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

  4. #4
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    540

    Default

    Not sure with all the junk in the back if I would even
    attempt it. We have trained in the situation and have learned
    if it needs to be done cut the B-posts then cut the roof in half.
    Works, takes a long time. I think I would stabalize and spread the
    door. If the window frame is a problem cut it.

  5. #5
    Member

    Join Date
    Apr 1999
    Location
    Spencer, NY
    Posts
    30

    Default

    I agree with KAPNKRNCH. I would apply the Res-Q-Jacks as shown below at the Houston Fire Dept. The standard procedure we teach is to place wedges in front of the A-posts and a jack stand at each rear fender with locking chain grabs, apply our universal chain wrap technique at the rear of the vehicle, attach base to base with 3300# strap. This method keeps the passenger compartment free from stabilization components to maximize access and extrication options. It also provides for a quick repeatable procedure which will work on any sedan, hatchback, SUV, pickup, etc I've come across without searching for purchase points or depending on shear strength of sheet metal,spot welds, etc. The vehicle must also be restricted from forward or rearward movement by tying off to a fixed object in the front and rear if necessary. At this point, the vehicle is stabilized. From here if I decide I want to do a roof removal or free a body part trapped under the roof rail, for example, I can wind the jacks to relieve pressure on the roof. Here I recommend placing a 3rd stand at the rear end as you can see in the picture. The straps from this base simply triangulate up to the front of the vehicle via the fender stand bases to avoid passenger compartment interference. With this done take the roof out. In the picture below, the team raised the rear enough to create clearance below the A-post to do an inverted dash displacement without ground interference. Once all your tools are out of the rig, roof should be gone in about 10 minutes.

    If you want more specific information on this procedure, just let me know.

    www.res-q-jack.com


  6. #6
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,681

    Default

    In my neck of the woods, EMS does dictate extrication procedures as they know condition of patient. My first thought was along the lines of Resqjack1, but as I look further at the picture, some concerns pop up. As for putting the jacks in the back, would they be stable enough sitting on a broken chain link fence laying on grass? If so, jack it, cut the posts and slide the roof towards the back and out of the way. Also need to block the front of vehicle by A post, for support once post is cut. If not, lots of cribbing in the back for stabilization, but I would not want to remove the roof then. I don't have enough faith in the cribbing to not tip over with the angle the truck is at.

    PS. Battery disconnection will be fun on this call to help with airbag safety.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  7. #7
    Forum Member
    TimatRescue42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 1999
    Location
    Chico, CA
    Posts
    84

    Default

    Bones42 (good number!),

    This is a piece of cake to us strut guys...

    Struts should be fine on fence as long as the fence is stable. Better solution would be to cut the fence away first, then stabilize.

    Find good metal for struts (use metal piercers if needed as shown below). If a plastic or fiberglass body, peel to find metal (other pic below) or saddle chain under truck and into chain slots. Note second car cut to avoid pretensioners and gas cylinders. If the vehicle is on a slope, you need to tie it off with straps, winch, pickets, etc. to prevent it from sliding away. Crib or strut front if needed. Everything else should be standard.

    Thanks to Sunnyvale, CA and Bridgeport, MI for the pics.

    Tim
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    www.rescue42.com

  8. #8
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 1999
    Location
    Glen Rock, Pa
    Posts
    126

    Default

    Well I might as well jump in as another "strut guy". Been doing this one for years. Matter of fact, we just did it about 30 times in one weekend class in Alabama. The slowest time for any group setting it up using the Zmag system was about 1 minute and 15 seconds ( they really messed up, most did it in under a minute). It keeps getting harder for me to stand by my ethics standards and not turn educational boards into blantant sales pitches. Guess I need to change my ways. If any of you would like pictures or quotes on the system that started this whole trend for a whole lot less money, then simply send an email to zmagrescue@aol.com

    Zmag

  9. #9
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Mainz, Germany
    Posts
    44

    Default Windshield

    If you like to remove the roof on vehicles which lie on the roof, how do you get the windshieled out if it is glued into the windshield-frame (especially when you could not work from the interior of the car, I can imagine that both facts fits to the picture). I think If the roof of the pickup-truck on the picture is crushed (as Ron assumed) it is not possible to take it off. So I would answer that a "total roof removal" is not possible...
    Last edited by JoergHeck; 10-23-2002 at 10:21 AM.
    Jorg Heck
    Airbag&Co, Germany/Austria
    http://airbag.feuerwehr.org

  10. #10
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Feb 1999
    Location
    Cleveland, NY 13042-USA
    Posts
    128

    Default

    Just got to add this, Mike is right, the point here is not so much the tool (Brand wise, Yes you need some kind of strut system whether is is ZMAG, RESCUE 42, RESCUE LOGIC, Holmatro, Air Shores, RES-Q-Jack, or what ever) but the technique. There is no one answer here. I do agree that roof removal has to be decided based on all the factors but if that is the need then we have to be ready to act. As far as this being anything New, Well Mike Schmidt was demonstrating and teaching this technique In West Viginia more than 2 years ago at one of their Regional RESCUE SCHOOLS. and Just one more point, It does not need to be done with a Metal Strut! IT certainly can be as Res-Q-Jack and RESCUER 42's post show! But it can be done with systems Like ZMAG ground Pads and the Capa Bear Claw also!
    Rescue is the Art & Science of matching your tools, talents and tricks to needs of our customers!
    Carl D. Avery

  11. #11
    Forum Member
    Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    Well,Not having struts but having hydraulic towing equipment back up to the rear of the pickup,extend the boom and lift.Same result.As others have pointed out there is many ways to do it and is this the best option?I don't know,I wasn't there.Chain link fence stability is NOT an issue when using a tow truck(but a TRAINED operator is).T.C.

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Dalmatian90's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2000
    Posts
    3,120

    Default

    Hey, if German fire departments can own cranes, a few of these:

    could come in handy in the U.S.



    Not only good for grabbing hold and lifting up vehicles to a comfortable working height, think of the short work a wheeled-excavator with grapple hook would make of your next McDonalds.

  13. #13
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Mainz, Germany
    Posts
    44

    Default

    Hi! You're right, many german departments have cranes in the garage. Our crane respondes to every motor vehicle accident with reported entrappment. It's not as fast as the other cars, so I think it could reach every place within our city (Mainz, near Frankfurt) in 20 to 25 minutes!

    The problem is that the crane needs much space and that it also has some set up time, so I dont't think its good to use it in the situation described above.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Jorg Heck
    Airbag&Co, Germany/Austria
    http://airbag.feuerwehr.org

  14. #14
    Junior Member

    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Deerfield WI USA
    Posts
    17

    Default

    JoerHeck you said many fire departments have cranes. The cranes are fire department equipment? Is this only in large cities? If we need anything in the states we call dispatch and as part of emergency management they can get almost anything. True the response time is poor but how can you justify a crane on your department? How many times a year do you really use the crane?

  15. #15
    Forum Member
    Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    Jorg,Winshield glued?Use the great windshield "ungluer"the Sawsall, brand irrelevant.Makes short work of the tuffest windshield.T.C.

  16. #16
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Mainz, Germany
    Posts
    44

    Default

    Rescue101, I know that a lot of tools work on laminated and glued in windshields. But in this special situation, how would you get the access to the windshield you need? Imagine that the windshield could lie flat on the ground because the a-post is crushed.
    Jorg Heck
    Airbag&Co, Germany/Austria
    http://airbag.feuerwehr.org

  17. #17
    FIGJAM
    lutan1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    I come from The Land Down Under!
    Posts
    1,833

    Default No struts available....

    OK, for a solution from someone who has NO access to these struts, here's how I'd tackle it, thinking way outside the square....

    At POINT A, I'd cut away the roof/storage racks.

    At POINT B, on each side of the hood, I'd place a lifting airbag on dual controls so both can be operated simultaneously.

    At POINT C, on each side of the tub, I'd build up box cribs.

    I would then inflate both the airbags together, which will do two things- first is lift the front of the car up and also cause it to pivot back and sit on the box cribs placed at the rear.

    Using the "Pack-as-you-jack" rule, at POINT D, I would begin to build up a box crib.

    Deflate the bags, place them on top of more cribbing at the same point and continue to lift the front and build up the front cribs until the vehicle was sitting roughly level.

    Before removing the bags on the final lift, I'd install extra cribbing adjacent to these points, then deflate and remove the bags.

    Ensure the stability of the vehcile then I'd move in and remove the roof of the vehicle using the jaws as per a normal evolution on a car on its wheels, excpet everything is inverted....

    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Luke

  18. #18
    IACOJ Agitator
    Adze39's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    In a van down by the CT River!
    Posts
    2,771

    Default

    Just to think differently...

    Do you necessarily have to cut the roof? What about cutting the floor of the pickup?


    The picture below is from an Advanced Extrication course I took. The Camero was placed in a car crusher then laid on its roof. The roof was totally crushed, when the car was on its roof the roof didn't lift up the car at all so it wasn't supporting any weight. The instructor had the group working on it cut the floor out from the car to get access to the passenger compartment.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    IACOJ Agitator
    Fightin' Da Man Since '78!

  19. #19
    IACOJ Agitator
    Adze39's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    In a van down by the CT River!
    Posts
    2,771

    Default

    Now for my removing the roof post...

    Can we do it? Yes.

    The first thing I would do obviously is stabilization.

    Then if the patients are on laying on the inside of the roof and are not entangled, I would cut the roof and slide it out from underneath the pickup truck. I might need to use airbags to lift the truck up a little further, depending on height needs.
    IACOJ Agitator
    Fightin' Da Man Since '78!

  20. #20
    Forum Member
    Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    Hehe Jorg,I think I'm being tested.I'm basing my actions on the scenerio as presented.As you know,you don't necessarily have to cut the bottom of the windshield.Here you could cut quite handily across the top of the windshield at the upper portion of the A posts,once the vehicle was properly stabilised.If the roof was flatter a different approach might be in order.T.C.

  21. #21
    MembersZone Subscriber
    MalahatTwo7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Loco madidus effercio in rutilus effercio.
    Posts
    12,837

    Default

    Adze, a question for you: What tools did you guys use to cut the floor pan out of the car? We tried a similar scenario a few months ago and had some success with it. It took the use of several different tools to achieve the effect we wanted, and we didn't cut the entire floor pan away.

    As always, looking for greater insight to achieving an end.
    If you don't do it RIGHT today, when will you have time to do it over? (Hall of Fame basketball player/coach John Wooden)

    "I may be slow, but my work is poor." Chief Dave Balding, MVFD

    "Its not Rocket Science. Just use a LITTLE imagination." (Me)

    Get it up. Get it on. Get it done!

    impossible solved cotidie. miracles postulo viginti - quattuor hora animadverto

    IACOJ member: Cheers, Play safe y'all.

  22. #22
    FIGJAM
    lutan1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    I come from The Land Down Under!
    Posts
    1,833

    Default

    Why not perform a "controlled rollover" using either winches, tirfors or the local tow company?

    They are easy to do. If done properly are extremely safe...

    Make it a hell of a lot easier to remove the roff and the casualty...
    Luke

  23. #23
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Feb 1999
    Location
    Cleveland, NY 13042-USA
    Posts
    128

    Default

    Originally posted by lutan1
    Why not perform a "controlled rollover" using either winches, tirfors or the local tow company?

    They are easy to do. If done properly are extremely safe...

    Make it a hell of a lot easier to remove the roff and the casualty...
    Luke, I am a member of the Fire Rescue Team at Watkins Glen International Race Track and have done this there with members of our team, and some exceptionally well trained wrecker crews that work with us virtually daily at the track from May till October. This was well done and with good results! But remember Our Drivers typically have on 4, 5, or 6 point harnesses and often wear neck collars. In the "REAL" world I would be very hesitant to do this enless I had an extremely close working and training relationship with the recovery crew (read Local tow company) Escpecially considering how relatively easy it is to do an inverted roof removal. I would never rule it out as an option. But enless you are capable of good C-spine imobilization during the "controlled rollover" process I would keep this as a LAST RESORT method.
    Rescue is the Art & Science of matching your tools, talents and tricks to needs of our customers!
    Carl D. Avery

  24. #24
    FIGJAM
    lutan1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    I come from The Land Down Under!
    Posts
    1,833

    Default

    Whilst talking controlled rollovers, don't forget that we can also do a half roll. A vehicle on its side will be easier to work with than on its roof for a full roof removal...

    But enless you are capable of good C-spine imobilization during the "controlled rollover" process I would keep this as a LAST RESORT method.
    Luke

  25. #25
    Forum Member
    fftrainer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 1999
    Location
    Northern, NJ
    Posts
    889

    Default

    Hey Dal... I want one of those toys you suggested. Yes they would be great for Extrication, but image the possibilities when PD blocks the address at a structure fire??????

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register