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  1. #61
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    You know the proof in the pudding here is the same after both fires, the department has a very tough time getting anyone to work with two particular
    Captains. Then they gave him a Purple Heart. You know the Captain who wasn’t short of air who with another Captain E-3 decided to simply walk away from a firefighter by their own words “just 10 feet away” of course E-2 Captain died. Neither Captain bothered to tell Command on the radio he was down. I wonder why no one wants to be on their crews. Has anyone asked how the Jahnke
    family feels about this guy? Or guys, they will tell you would you like her number?

    Of course no one wants to ride with the McDonalds captain either.

    OK, I’ll say it COWARDICE, yeah that is the word left out here. What happened to you go I go? To quote E-3 and L-28 Captains, “another crew will find them.” Sure did 25 minutes later. Oh well, not there fault he can’t hold his breath that long.


    Station 2

    xxxxOne sided arguments from information that was only seen by the priveleged few.

    TV news footage, is available to all.

    XXXX If it is so "damning" then allow all to see it.

    Ok let me figure out how to post the audi and video on here or provide a web link. YOu are sure you want the whole fire service to see how silly you are at work?

    xxxxI am speaking of your videotape footage with time stamping and audio tapes before they were coreographed to your side of the story.

    Hmm, three written reports all agree it is accurate, the sad thing is hearing the building occupants on tape say HFD doesn't know what they are doing.

    XXXThrow it all out there and let everyone hear and see it.

    Before the day is over I will.

    If you were any kind of firefighter Station 2 and your other HFD cronies you would be able to defend the actions takn that day, but the state of things on the street is so poor there is no defense. Nice boys club though!!!!


  2. #62
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    Your asking me if I want the whole world to see it? You have come on here and totally blasted the fire fighters on the rigs doing the job, the job itself and the people who have been lost doing the job and you ask me if I want it posted on here? You answered your own questions the other day when you came on here. At this point it can't get any worse. Well, my cronies & I just believe in doing our jobs and doing them to the best of our ability. If the "things on the street are so poor", ask yourself why? I mean really do some soul searching and ask yourself why it is? Again, I bid you farewell and have a great day.
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


    Larry

  3. #63
    EuroFirefighter.com PaulGRIMWOOD's Avatar
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    Firewalker - using the PPV analogy demonstrates you cannot possibly, in any way or form, comprehend what a high-rise 'blow-torch' efect is like! SFMO LODD Investigation # 02-50-10 Page 12 -

    Upon making entry to Unit 52 moderate smoke was observed initially, rapidly changing to heavy smoke and zero visibility within seconds. This may coincide with the failure of the windows in the master bedroom. Firefighters reported that the level of heat seemed to intensify right at the doorway of Unit 52. Firefighters reported the heat level significantly decreased by distance on either side of the
    opening.

    This intensification in heat may be due in part to the Venturi Effect. The gusty north winds entering the large opening created by the broken north and west windows would tend to accelerate as the air currents passed through the significantly smaller door opening into the corridor. The rate of wind acceleration is inversely proportional when comparing the speed of the wind passing through the large open windows to the speed of the wind passing through the small doorway opening. For example: Under laboratory conditions, a 30 mph wind passing through a 60 square foot opening into a confined area would tend to accelerate to 90 mph when passing through a 20 square foot opening at the other end of the confined area (30/60 à 90/20.) As the air moving through the doorway of Unit 52 into the corridor increased in velocity, the air at the doorway would decrease in pressure, causing even more heat, smoke, and fire gases to be pulled from
    the interior of the condominium and expelled into the corridor.

    I have seen firefighters become extremely disorientated under such conditions - to the extent where they have lost their partners - and exited of their own will and accord. Until YOU have been in that situation then the term 'cowardice' is inappropriate and so are your opinions of what occurred on the fire floor.

    The SFM report suggests video footage of pressurised smoke exiting at gradient level - what can push smoke and heat DOWN in a high-rise fire in such a way? What can cause heat to MELT hardened plastic two floors below a fire floor?

    With mutiple reports of firefighters becoming trapped on the fire floor where a fire is escalating out of control and not being fought, with pressurised smoke reportedly moving DOWNWARDS in the building - what is an IC to do? Regroup his forces? Thats what he appeared to do. I am not defending - I was not at the incident but I emphasise again, such conditions are likely to create havoc and totally de-stabilise the SOP.

  4. #64
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    What I find unbelievable is the RIT team was never established. When they were interviewed their reply was, “it was raining”. The news videos showed firefighters going up into the building that was on fire, with nothing in their hands (9 firefighters in one picture). If I remember correctly one of the big arguments to staffing was there were not enough firefighters to carry equipment. When this was first posted our Houston firefighters were more concerned about who was saying what rather than the information being factual. Now the responses from the Houston firefighters are few if any. Last Saturday the Valor committee made a hero out of the L-28 Captain who left the other captain behind. What a joke! There is still no response to the question “ Who would leave any firefighter who was described as being confused and excited? Houston has been very lucky only losing three firefighters in two years. I believe unless things change it is a matter of time before another firefighter is lost. I would be willing to bet the IAF will blame staffing. I am an IAF member and I am willing to accept my wrong and prevent it from happening again thats what professionals do. LEARN FROM OUR MISTAKES! Why can't the IAF do the same.

  5. #65
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    Have to agree, have no choice but to agree with SPFD on Dal's quote.Hands down the best words spoken yet.

    I really hope nobody here thinks that manpower was the only and most important factor involved here. It was one, and might've been a crucial one.The very same can be said for operations and training.

    Dal I don't think that anybody had a problem with what you were saying-just so much as you're up there in CT.Those guys are obviously down south a 'bit. The point being that you are not one of them.I suspect that if I had lost some mates the very last thing that I would want to hear is statements about that very same incident coming from somebody hundreds of miles away-right or wrong.For what it's worth I agree with a majority of what you said. Being passionate is ok too-unfortunately geography and time seperates you from the actual incident. One cannot make a truly accurate assessment based on a , written two-dimensional report. The facts,maybe- percieved by individuals who weren't there and/or formed opinions on the testimony of others who were there. I will not put my faith into reports. Call me stupid, call me loopy diaper. Irregardless we still all have the responsibility to learn and improve. It not only benefits us as firefighters, but those we are sworn to protect.

    Firewalker1. If you aren't Larry Stevens you have got to be somewhere on the Stevens tree.. I am guessing somewhere down towards the bottom-like, in the dirt.Don't even try the"I am the root system-holding the rest of you pathetic firefighters up" parry either. Plenty of trees rot from the roots... SOP warrior. Got 'em in the fire service, got 'em in the military.The spirit and tradition of the fire service lends itself to all that we do. I will tell you that given the choice between SOP's and the knob I am going for the knob every time. SOP's are and should be apart of every department-and we should all follow them as closely as we can. There will come a time and a situation where the answer isn't gonna be in the book. That's where tradition, spirit- what makes us do what we do-kicks in.The military has got to be one of the most SOP, rule and reg heavy institutions I have worked for. Most of their SOP's are written in blood, after the fact. Even in peacetime, in training, just doing what they do-lives are lost. Is it acceptable?No.It is the price we pay.Mistakes happen- sometimes operator error, sometimes equipment malfunction, sometimes a GOD event.Another SOP is written if some unlucky soul dies in a way not covered by existing SOP. There isnt enough paper, pal. People die doing what we do. Is there room for improvement?Hell yes, until nobody loses thier life we can improve.Should we learn from every event? Hell yes, until our noggins' explode.

    This job is gonna kill firefighters until we no longer rely on air to breathe, until we can't be crushed, until our flesh does not burn....Course, guess we could just remove ourselves from that environment couldn't we? Then we'd be less like firefighters and more like Firewalker's!


    Stay Safe folks!
    Last edited by RSchmidt; 11-04-2002 at 01:22 PM.
    Rob

    "Well done is better than well said" - B. Franklin

  6. #66
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    Thump thump thump, the sound of Station 2 running away from the truth

    Station 2 and other HFD posters….

    One common tactic when you can’t support your position or claims is to attack the poster. Well, knock yourself out. Everyone else can read right through it. You’ll note, I post the citation of the report supported by video, interviews of the members and radio traffic log times. And you support your claims by saying you know the guys, or were there, or he’s a good guy.

    Who needs video time stamped. NIOSH says E-11 did not arrive until after the mayday which was a 5:09. E-11 says on radio they are on scene at 4:59. The next radio communication is Command asking them to get out of their truck and come to the lobby at 5:07. Gee who is RIT, those guys sitting in the cab of their truck afraid to get wet in the rain. The only excuse they had was it was raining we were delayed in our response.

    So support there actions

    How about E-3 rescuing a dog instead of providing back up to the attack as ordered.

    Support that …

    How about none of the crews taking spare bottles up.

    Supportthat

    Support not wearing gear

    Support not using 60 minute bottles.

    Support Command arguing with the request for back up

    Support Command not talking with the mayday firefighter

    Support why it took 25 minutes to find a guy who told you exactly where he was.

    Support why 189 firefighters cannot get water on the fire in less than 1 hour and 17 minutes.

    SUPPORT WALKING AWAY FROM A FIREFIGHTER LOW ON AIR WHEN YO AND YOUR BUDDY AREN’T LOW ON AIR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    THE WHOLE FIRE SERVICE, ALMOST 2000 READERS TO THIS POSTING SO FAR WANT TO HEAR YOUR LAME EXCUSES….

    COME ON….. THIS OUGHT TO BE GOOD!

    We all need a laugh give us a few more!

  7. #67
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    Thump, thump, thump... thats not me running away ace. Thats the door hitting you when you left suppression. You never told me, what division are you in? What capacity do you serve in on the Command Staff? TELL US. Your profile onece said Sr. Dipscther with 20 years of service. No you tell me and others here that you have 28 years, are a member of the Command Staff and you change your profile. Were you lying then or lying now? That is important because it builds or damages credibility.

    As for facts, your time stamps and time frames don't hold water. You have some things that say one time and somethings that say another. You forget one thing that never helps HFD times. Its a MAST (Or a poor mans MDT). That there will account for time discrepancies because the button is pushed and the mic not keyed for a minute, or vice versa. Is it right no. Does it happen yes. As for everything else...your on a rant. Your never concede to any points I or others put on here because your the almighty and all knowing. You tell us how it was and how it will be, but fail to build credibility before doing so. You rattle on about issues that need to be addressed in house and not in the public forum. You have used words like coward, you have said we "suck", you have mentioned that large groups of people should be fired, that we don't know our jobs, and the list goes on. If you have the overwhelming desire to prevent this from happening again, then use that drive for good. Not for libalous attacks here and against those that were there and know different. Take a Captains test and come out to the real world and be the one who has to make decisions and get it done right the first time. It is easy to hide behind a desk and tell everyone what they did was wrong and what they didn't do at all. Come on. Actually do what the patch on your shirt says WE DO. I say we speaking of the 3000+ of us that do. Not you and your cronies who know everything from sources unknown. Your the man, or say you say. Lets get together at the academy. Show me you can do what you say needs to be done. Lets set up a fire simulation and you be the IC. Then I'll go and we'll see who messes up more. Might make you feel not so perfect. Bottom line where mistakes made at FLT? Yes. Are there areas for improvement? Yes. Is it right for you to attack officers, fire fighters and whole companies here, in public? Absolutely not. There are ways to convey lessons learned to the outside world without dragging the integrity of the whole department down. Have you no shame? I know the answer to that. You probably came up in EMS, drove an Engine Co. for a little while, then took the Dispatchers test and stayed there. That gives you the right to slam the efforts of the very men and women who served side by side with you in your past. I say past, because your not with them anymore. There still doing the job and getting ridden by people like you in their glass toweres for mistakes they make. As soon as people downtown are perfect, then you can hold us all to that standard. Have a good day.
    Last edited by STATION2; 11-04-2002 at 12:12 PM.
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


    Larry

  8. #68
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    Thumbs down

    Originally posted by Firewalker1

    We all need a laugh give us a few more!
    No. What I really need is to learn. Pathetic. Are you sure you're in the right forum?
    Rob

    "Well done is better than well said" - B. Franklin

  9. #69
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    Thumbs down Come out and play firewalker1

    In response to Firewalker1, it is obvious that the only thing you know about firewalking is in your sign on name.

    Point 1 Fire coming from a 5th floor high-rise and you and the command staff blame the firefighters for not changing out to one-hour air bottle? You must have been one hell of a fire fighter. “Hold on people I have to get something before saving you” The question should be why doesn’t HFD have 1-hour air-packs ready to go? Oh I know “Money”

    Point 2 Thermal Imaging Cameras
    I do not know why the Sr. Capt did not immediately bring his thermal Imager with him but how about this novel idea….. Give all apparatus’s Thermal Imagers? Oh I know “MONEY”

    Let’s talk about crews and accountability- you are a fool if you think you can do a better job or even the same job with 3 firefighters verses four firefighters every “Professional” knows this it, is a given” to argue this point just shows your lack of knowledge or just plain ignorance.

    Again another idea that this administration is still fighting and holding against the men and women of the Houston Fire Dept is the fourth man. Oh I know why “MONEY”

    Our accountability system is stone-age - every Captain count you men – report to sector officer who reports this to operations who reports this to Incident command. Oh yea this is a quick and easy operation. That’s right and incident command is ONE PERSON!!!
    Again “MONEY”

    The only thing that has changed in HFD since Capt Jahnke’s death is the fourth man and that cost us Capt. Jahnke, all the other problems are still there. The Administration in Houston is aware of all of these problems stated here but you know what? ---- They are not responsible – The men and women of HFD are!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    All those we read this should have come to the same conclusion the life of a Houston Firefigher is CHEAP the cost is - Thermal imagers for every apparatus, one hour air packs ready to go (on their own harness), and a decent accountability system and Chief Aids to monitor it. But we all know the answer “MONEY”

    And last but not least

    If you are man enough to make accusations of cowardice, are you brave enough to identify yourself?

  10. #70
    Senior Member Dalmatian90's Avatar
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    Dal I don't think that anybody had a problem with what you were saying-just so much as you're up there in CT.

    Thanks Schmidt, and I agree. It may seem insensitive, but we have to balance sympathy with reason. Calling something black when it is white, will not make it black no many how times you say it. We may meet in the middle sometimes and decide something's really a shade of gray.


    K-12's: First used by FDNY Rescue Co. 02 on trials. Not widely used, fire service wide, until the '70's at the VERY earliest.

    I'll try and scan in the ads I have from 1967 for them. Sorry to blow out any myths, and the real point is we vented fires back then. You don't vent fires unless you're planning to work them from the inside, blowing out the myth of no aggressive interior attacks before thirty years ago.
    Besides, before small two cycle chainsaw engines became common, we always had an axe.

    IMS: Don't confuse a rank structure with an Incident Management System.
    Rank structure, by definition, is an incident managment system. I give you orders, you follow. Terms may vary, but the ideas like span of control and specialization are there. Maybe you called the ranking officer the Officer-in-Charge instead of Incident Commander (note, one indicates your responsible for your men & equipment and the actions they take, the other makes you think your a God who can control the incident by waving your vest around.). We had specialization -- I don't think there's a rural area that creates effective water supply without designating a Water Supply Officer. We had functional divisions -- Attack, Water Supply, Salvage & Overhaul. We had span of control -- no need for Lieutenants and Captains if you only had a Chief spewing orders.

    ICS, then IMS, came about in efforts to reinforce the basics and maybe make some improvements on the side.


    McDonalds: Presented like a BS fire. I am not advocating the belief that every fire is the same for I know better then that. I am saying many fires before had presented itself like that. Spin it to someone else who you can confuse.

    Uh oh, I just went myth-busting again.

    Station 2, I quote you, "The 1st arriving Engine Co. (E76) and 1st arriving Truck Co. (L76) arrived within seconds of each other. The initial IC (L76 Officer) decided that an offensive attack was in order given the conditions presenting upon his arrival. Contrary to what you believe, there was no HEAVY FIRE from the building."

    And that's what I based by response on. Silly me, today I actually went to check the NIOSH Report,
    http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/face200013.html

    Medic 73 was first to arrive on the scene, followed by Engine 76 (Captain, Fire Apparatus Operator (FAO), and two fire fighters (Victim #1 and Victim #2). Upon arrival, dispatch was notified by the two companies that there was visible fire emitting through the roof. The Captain on Engine 76 radioed dispatch reporting that he and his crew were going to complete a "fast attack" (enter the structure with a 1¾-inch hoseline and knock down the fire with the water from their engine). Approximately 2 minutes later, Ladder 76 (Captain, FAO, and one fire fighter) arrived on the scene and the Captain assumed Incident Command (IC).

    Let's see, so the Ladder & Engine didn't arrive together according to the reports, the Engine officer made the call on the fast attack, and 6' flames need a significant amount fuel -- whether it's grease or a lot of heat off-gassing the trusses. Grease fires we fight with dry chem extinguishers, so I think most of us can make an educated guess what the Captain thought was burning when he stretched an 1.75".

    0438 Medic 73 reports 6' flames venting from roof
    0439 (approx.) Engine 76 arrives
    0440 (approx.) Ladder 76 arrives
    (Remember you could have nearly 2 minutes go by like the report states and still have times looking only a minute apart)
    FAO & FF from Ladder 76 go to force entry (hey look, they did use the driver!), find the engine crew had already broken out a glass panel to do so.
    Soon after, the Captain from Engine 76 entered the building and stated that it was filled with thick, black smoke which had banked down to the floor. He also stated that there was very little heat and no visible fire.

    Sure this is a fire without heavy fire. Sure it is. Let people read the reports and figure out who is spinning and confusing here, Station2.

    I respect your opinions Larry (Station2), but they're just not jiving with multiple official reports.

    Matt

  11. #71
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    Captain 20
    You are way out of your league.
    First : refer to your own internal Bulletin dated November 1999 about Thermal Imagers.

    Second: Houston received a grant for $ 750 000. to purchase an accountability system. Check the council agenda its on there this week. I might add the test was skewed to make one particular system look better that the other, so Houston is buying obsolete equipment to begin with. No surprise there. That can be your next excuse for not doing your job.

    Third : The city is spending $ 120,00 a day in overtime to put 4 on a rig. The first thing out of every ones mouth is we want 5 & 6 now. So yes money is a problem. There is only so many tax dollars. The fire chief has no say over that. As firefighters we do with what we have to do it with. Ask volunteers how many show up at their scene. Who ever shows up they are properly utilized. Doesn’t it state that somewhere in NFPA about proper utilization of personnel on the fire ground.

    Fourth: Lets talk about crew accountability. The back up crew with 4 firefighters never completes their assignment, according to the report, the captain cannot account for his crew after the first bottle change. More disturbing was the I.C. was never notified of this. Could you have lost more firefighters? YES! And who would have known?

    Fifth: If the problems are still there why are you not doing anything to help change? You are an officer and just as responsible. Why is it the administrations fault? You are the one on the line. How much training do you do with your crew? HONESTLY? And how many fall a sleep while your giving a class. I will ask you:
    Do you allow your firefighters to exit the rig with nothing in there hand?
    When you ride the ladder, do you take the thermal imager in to a structure fire?
    Would you leave a behind a firefighter who you describe as confused and excited?

    The Four Leaf fire should have been the greatest rescue effort by a fire department, but as stated many times a lot of things went wrong which took a great firefighters life.

    Ask yourself what can I do to keep this from happening to my crew?

    You are way out of you league. Next time arm yourself before replying

  12. #72
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    Gee Schmidt, the whistle blowers, truth tellers are always unpopular but remember this whole thread is about the International Union saying NISOH singled out staffing as the cause of the firefighters death. That is simply untrue, NIOSH didn’t single out squat!

    But as you can clearly see, NIOSH made 11 recommendations and a few errors and left out a few things. The city report made 27 recommendations and the State 32. Like the state report said improper utilization of staffing is as bad as insufficient staffing. Who made up the state report a whole mess of fire officers from around the state. Apparently, people in Texas like what they and the city write because since the reports publish date both have been asked to critically review other LODD deaths in the state.

    HFD members didn’t learn a thing from McD’s except the montra, staffing killed them. HFD members haven’t learned a thing after FLT either except to chant staffing killed Jay.

    The lessons are simple, we have cowards among us! In our midst. We have a selection of incompetent company officers and district chiefs. We have a lot of unsafe members. We have officers who will not follow rules.




    xxxxYour asking me if I want the whole world to see it?
    You suggested it so I’m simply complying with your request, thanks for the great idea.
    xxxxYou have come on here and totally blasted the fire fighters on the rigs doing the job,
    Not really I simply posted citations from three written reports that are accepted as fact, and where there was an obvious error pointed it out with supporting data. If telling the truth, posting a report is blasting, I’m sorry. I posted the facts with references.
    xxxxthe job itself and the people who have been lost doing the job and you ask me if I want it posted on here?
    You suggested posting it! You are right all the facts need to come out for all the world to see. It should make you real popular at the fire station.
    xxxx At this point it can't get any worse.
    Sure it can, right now everyone has their own visual picture of what happened it will be replaced with the raw truth.
    xxxxWell, my cronies & I just believe in doing our jobs and doing them to the best of our ability.
    Which isn’t too awfully professional. Three fires and four deaths and four very near misses. Seems like a habit is forming. And everyone is pointing to Staffing and anything else ion Monday morning quarterbacking.
    XXXX If the "things on the street are so poor", ask yourself why?
    You have cowards in charge of some crews, you have members who won’t follow the rules from wearing gear to using a radio. Etc. You have people at work doing their 7 days a month and not focusing on the job and most are focused on retirement.
    How else do you explain firefighters falling asleep while driving a fire truck code 3 to a call totaling the rig? EMS units with a severely injured stabbing patient in the back stopping for donuts on the way to the hospital? Medics stopping their unit on the highway and beating the tar out of each other requiring an EMS response? EMS units turning down transport on a baby for mosquito bites who dies from them in hours? !0 minute dispatch times to structure fires. Posting racist information on department computers? Firefighters creating anthrax calls. EMS units not transporting injured children in severe pain who die within hours? Deaf guys assigned to dispatch sending ambulances 16 blocks the wrong direction? Firefighters abandoning their fellow firefighters. Captains afraid to go inside with their crews. Captains at fires not letting command know 15 minutes after an evacuation that he can’t find his crew. Chiefs arguing with officers asking for help. Crews that won’t get out of the truck because it is raining at a working fire with crews trapped. A company forgetting to bring their thermal imager out of the building. Company officers forgetting one of the members of his own crew in a fire.
    You’ve got excellent Union leadership, they walked away from the table on a 16% raise. Haven’t got you a raise in 4 years will be at least 5 now. And won’t even post the name of a firefighter who died in the line of duty just four years ago on the firefighter memorial statue BECAUSE HE WAS A VOLUNTEER!
    You get the kind of Union leadership you deserve and elect and it seems as ragged as your fire ground operations.
    xxxxxThats the door hitting you when you left suppression.
    Ge I never left, I bet I’ve made more fires than you this year and certainly 20 times more than your entire career, but that is just me spewing more facts.

    XXXXAs for facts, your time stamps and time frames don't hold water.
    Tell you what, ask a specific question to what doesn’t hold water and I will get you the exact data to support any claim I’ve made. Fair enough?
    xxxYour never concede to any points I or others put on here because your the almighty and all knowing.
    And what points have you conceded?
    XXXXXYou tell us how it was and how it will be, but fail to build credibility before doing so.
    I see unless the reported is a firefighter with more experience than you they don’t have credibility??
    XXXYou rattle on about issues that need to be addressed in house and not in the public forum.
    Sorry son, you are a member of the Union your union went public, I’m simply refuting their false charges.
    xxxx You have used words like coward, you have said we "suck", you have mentioned that large groups of people If you have the overwhelming desire to prevent this from happening again,
    Oh I see, no consequences for your actions what a concept, no that is how we go this far.
    xxxxNot for libalous attacks here and against those that were there and know different.
    Well put up, name one thing I said is not correct and make me prove it.
    XXXX Take a Captains test and come out to the real world and be the one who has to make decisions and get it done right the first time.
    Dang that was 13 years ago. I thought you noted I was a rank higher than that.
    xxxxActually do what the patch on your shirt says WE DO. I say we speaking of the 3000+ of us that do.
    Coming from a guy who just said if you aren’t on the floor your words don’t count.
    xxxxYour the man, or say you say. Lets get together at the academy. Show me you can do what you say needs to be done. Lets set up a fire simulation and you be the IC. Then I'll go and we'll see who messes up more.
    So that will brings these guys and gal back then???
    XXXXIs it right for you to attack officers, fire fighters and whole companies here, in public? Absolutely not.
    But it is OK for your Union to do it without any response to the truth?
    xxxxThere are ways to convey lessons learned to the outside world without dragging the integrity of the whole department down.
    Yeah I noticed your Union simply lies! Let’s all lie, will feel better about the gallant deaths of our firefighters. God meant it to happen so who are we to question anything? Let the coward Captains continue their careers and hope they don’t knock off a few more.
    If you are really into FD history, what Captain has had two LODD fires where he has lost members of his crew?
    XXXXHave you no shame?
    Can’t say I do, not until some of these jerks are let go and the Union and the Union membership say they won’t support these continued transgressions of their membership.
    Hey Larry, the Mayor hasn’t cut loose yet. What happens if you falsify a report??
    xxxxThere still doing the job and getting ridden by people like you in their glass toweres for mistakes they make.
    Yes we are all good people and just because this guy or that guy abandoned his fellow firefighters isn’t enough reason to get rid of them. They should be relocated, because the chance of being in that position again isn’t likely. Even though 2 of the last 3 LODD events involve the same reassigned company officer. And heck anyone can forget to wear his gear up to the fire floor, street clothes look better. And hey, everyone falls a sleep diving a ladder truck code 3 once in a while. And hey, so the crew didn’t like their assignment, why should they have to complete it? Everyone from time to time needs an excuse not to go up and work so taking that dog down was a great idea so a guy died, at least the dog that wasn’t in danger is in the lobby. And us modern fire fighters can’t be expected to wear those heavy 60 minute bottles they weight the same as the 30 minute jobs I fought fire in 10 years before you ever squirted water on a fire. Sure make your rules up as you go, work you 7 days a month and nothing will be expected of you!

    xxxxxPoint 1 Fire coming from a 5th floor high-rise and you and the command staff blame the firefighters for not changing out to one-hour air bottle? You must have been one hell of a fire fighter. “Hold on people I have to get something before saving you” The question should be why doesn’t HFD have 1-hour air-packs ready to go? Oh I know “Money”

    Nice post, here are the facts 50 engines, all have four extra air packs with 60 minute bottles. It is in the HIGHRISE compartment. That is where the HIGHRISE hose packs are stored. That is where you get your HIGH RISE gear. Only 16 of the20 some odd engines there had 60 minute air packs. Not money now is it?

    Every ladder, haz mat and rescue in the city has 60’s. Any company that wants more bottles or 60’s can simply fill out a form and get all they need. We currently own 1200 and have 1000 more coming. HFD’’S officers inability to follow the rules has resulted in all air packs being bottled with 60’s, the days of 30 are over.

    xxxxPoint 2 Thermal Imaging Cameras
    I do not know why the Sr. Capt did not immediately bring his thermal Imager with him but how about this novel idea….. Give all apparatus’s Thermal Imagers? Oh I know “MONEY”

    The city of Houston at the time of the fire had more Imagers than any other fire department in the WORLD! They are and were on all ladders, haz mat, rescues and command van. Here let me give you the quote from L-28 on why he didn’t bring his from the NIOSH, State and City report: “he forgot to bring it” His solution, send someone else down to do his job. You can verify all of this it is in all three reports.

    XXXXLet’s talk about crews and accountability- you are a fool if you think you can do a better job or even the same job with 3 firefighters verses four firefighters every “Professional” knows this it, is a given” to argue this point just shows your lack of knowledge or just plain ignorance.

    Well of course I can. Here is how you do it. One if there are three on your crew take all three! If you have a crew of three have all three dress out! The first two crews decided not to do that. Thus they reduced staffing by 33%. The next in rig had FOUR, but he lost half his crew, so he only had 50% to work with. E-11 had 4 he wouldn’t let the crew out of the rig to do their job thus a 100% reduction in crew strength.

    So let’s do the math. Four crews, two with 4 two with 3. The 3’s beat the 4’s. Of course this is based upon actual fire events not some book crap. Like the state report said, misuse of staffing is as bad or worse as lack of staffing.

    But heck, we’re all friends here, lets say you’ve got three on your rig and you get a dispatch for a high rise with confirmed fire. You are the Captain or Senior Captian just reach over to the EMS crew next to your bed and say get you lazy axes up and go. Now your 3 man crew is 5 or 6! Or you could just let them sleep like all the officers did in this case. There were plenty of guys just lousy utilization of them. 56 onscene, 74 who could have been there and only two on the fire floor. SFAFFING PROBLEM EH???

    xxxxin another idea that this administration is still fighting and holding against the men and women of the Houston Fire Dept is the fourth man. Oh I know why “MONEY”

    Sir, you must not be from around here! Every company in the city has been running four for 13 months! There is no NFPA requirement for 4 on an engine or ladder.

    xxxxOur accountability system is stone-age - every Captain count you men – report to sector officer who reports this to operations who reports this to Incident command. Oh yea this is a quick and easy operation. That’s right and incident command is ONE PERSON!!!

    Sorry sport you had three in command positions and three support staff at this call before the apartment door was opened. Your own L-38 officer mis-informed command about crew locations. Shame shame. I t is all in the all three reports.

    xxxxThe only thing that has changed in HFD since Capt Jahnke’s death is the fourth man and that cost us Capt. Jahnke, all the other problems are still there.

    So last week at the high rise job why did everyone wear 60’s? Why did the crews respond as per SOP to their areas and not freelance if nothing has changed??? You just lied!

    XxxxxxThe Administration in Houston is aware of all of these problems stated here but you know what? ---- They are not responsible – The men and women of HFD are!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    That’s right it is administrations job to make sure L-38 doesn’t lie to command. To make sure you carry your imager and not forget it. It is admins job to show yo the high rise compartment. To read you the SOPS, to dress you, to hand carry you to your assignments, to keep your crew together, to teach you to count to five by ones, to baby sit your every action.

    xxxxAll those we read this should have come to the same conclusion the life of a Houston Firefigher is CHEAP the cost is - Thermal imagers for every apparatus, one hour air packs ready to go (on their own harness), and a decent accountability system and Chief Aids to monitor it. But we all know the answer “MONEY”

    Imager for every rig? That won’t save lives, of the first 9 ladders only one imager was carried a lot! Ownership doesn’t insure use, you’all proved that!!!! Damn boy!

    60 minute pack per member, we own enough for every member to wear two at once, see ownership isn’t enough you have to put it on! How do you explain no one carrying a spare bottle in with them?

    Yeah admin those horrible guys had ordered the worlds best accountability system before the fire, your own firefighters safety committee suggested dog tags. Now they want the worst system on earth. There were plenty of bottles before the fire. And every rig will have imagers a lot of good that will do if no one remembers to bring it. Makes you wonder why we pay the big dollars to officers to not be able to remember.

    XXXXIf you are man enough to make accusations of cowardice, are you brave enough to identify yourself?

    You aren’t curious at all if there is any truth to that? What do you call it when you leave your PARTNER when you are not short of air and he is??? Who was Jay paired up with? What did his firefighter say to L-28 Captain before he left? “Approximately three minutes have elapsed since the windows were blown out. The E-2 firefighter closed his nozzle; handed it to the L-28 captain. He explained to this captain that he is running out of air and that he needs to get out. The E-2 firefighter twice asked this captain as follows: “You have got E-2 captain, right?” After an affirmative response from the L-28 captain, E-2 firefighter leaves the apartment. The L-28 firefighter volunteers to take the E-2 firefighter to the stairwell “ Amazing you guys wear 3 minute air packs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Hey don’t take my word it is all in writing in three reports!! Dang you guys are horrible out there….

    Shame on you MATT, for pointing out the truth, what are your qualifications to read that report? How many reports have you read? Come down here and take the captains test, meet me at the academy and see if it reads differently! Dang Dalmation90, anyone can clearly see it is a UNION staffing issue which is totally different than not having enough guys to do the job!! See they don’t want to do the job, they want excuses and staffing is the excuse. The Union supported the wrong mayorial candidate for the third time.

  13. #73
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    Default

    Just for the rest of the world to know that is reading this. Not all of HFD is as messed up as it sounds....we do have a lot of great firemen in our department that are committed to there jobs and the people we serve.

    Like I stated before. There where a lot of problems on this fire. I was there and saw first hand. To say there wasn't would be a dishonor to Jay. I could only imagine some of the things he would have said to his men after the fire if he had lived.
    I got off the engine and this is what I had with me. A 60 minute bottle on my back. A spare 60 minute bottle on my shoulder. A halligan bar and a flat head axe. That’s what I had. Oh and a flash light strapped around me. So to say everyone at the fire was not prepared is wrong. But at the same time I did see a lot of firemen standing around doing nothing.
    I know what I am about to say is going to fuel the fire more but like I said I was there in the building and if you weren't then I really don't think you know what it was like, but where forgetting something and that is the date. Yes the date was only just a month after 9/11 and I tell you I saw a lot of firefighters that I know to be aggressive just standing outside. Where they afraid to go in, yes I think some might have been. So close after 9/11. I saw a captain on the inside. a guy that I would trust my life with freeze up on the inside stair well, because like he said "I can't get the towers out of my head" is he a bad guy NO is he a bad firefighter No I’m just saying it's one more piece to this messed up fire. Does it make it right, No. So much went wrong and ALL parties have to be honest. Does Houston have a staffing problem YES. Does Houston have problems with SOP YES. Does Houston have other problems YES. So I’m asking you what we should do about it. I'm not a captain or a chief. I'm just a firefighter you know the one that goes in there and does the grunt work. So could I just walk into the union and say, hey you guys are screwing up or could I get the chief and mayor to listen to my ideas hell No, because I don't have 30 years in and haven't taken any tests I must be a dumb ***** well maybe I am, maybe I don't have a clue and only because I have only fought 300+ fires and not the 1000's you all have seem to, but it's getting to the point now that no one in this department wants to look at the truth. Everyone on here has good and bad points...right and wrong views...So my question to all you HFD brothers out there is what do we do about it. Firewalker I would be more then happy to write a list of things I think we should do, but again I’m not a captain so who would even listen.
    Last edited by hfd838; 11-04-2002 at 02:24 PM.
    "DON'T GO IN THERE!!! DON'T YOU KNOW THERE IS A FIRE IN THERE!!!!"

    "YOU'RE KILLING ME ROOK"

  14. #74
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    Default Last chance

    Again you do not identify yourself? Are you really an employee of HFD, or just some yahoo who wants to trash the men and women of the Houston Fire Department, because the half-truths and out right lies you have posted no longer deserve our attention!!
    STAND UP AND SIGN YOUR NEXT POSTING!!

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    xxxxsome yahoo who wants to trash the men and women of the Houston Fire Department, because the half-truths and out right lies you have posted no longer deserve our attention!!

    Well as before, please single out the outright lies. The half truths and I’ll be happy to support my data. As usual, you guys care more about who is saying things than what is being said. SO put up, you say there is a lie a half truth, identify it support your claims.

    I’vwe posted great deal to support everything I’ve said, and you have not!

    Note that Station 2 went down in flames on McD’s so you care too as well?

    SO PUT UP OR SHUT UP!!!!!!!!! There appears to be a ton of data supporting my posts!!!!

  16. #76
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    Angry

    I am also a veteran of the HFD and feel that the dirty laundry being spread for the whole world to see is not appropriate. I think everyone who has responded agrees there are problems with every fire service organization. But, to try and sit here and sway people reading this that are not in Houston is absolutely unconscionable. Firewalker1, if you believe the facts speak for themselve, why are you so adimate about pointing fingers at certain people. If you are on the command staff, you yourself should be held accountable for what happened by not enforcing the SOP's. You can place the blame on every officer in the fire department, but it still falls back on the fire chief and his "staff". If you think this is an unfair statement then you should think twice before questioning the judgements made by officers on the scene.

    Secondly, I know you think you are the smartest and all knowing, so why are you so afaid to identify yourself. I can honestly say that you have nobody's respect or admiration as of now anyway because you are on the command staff and back our (and I say this lightly) fire chief.

    Mike
    HFD 6

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    I wouldn't call it going down in flames. Your of the mindset that your right, we are all wrong, and nothing can change that opinion you have built up in your head. I am going to sit back and wait for the inevitable implosion that know-it-alls suffer. Next multiple in a high-rise, check your mouth at the door and meet the fire fighters on the fire floor.
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


    Larry

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    The first thing I have heard during this entire argument that I can agree with. Not all of the HFD personnel are incompetent. Wouldn’t you like to at least get the ones who are not up to par up to your level or out on retirement so you can go home to your family at the end of a tour? I asked some very basic questions which individuals are side stepping. If you think you know who the source is go to the source and get an education, if you can handle it. I will remind you everything is public information. The main reason I am so defensive is contrary to belief I do have a lot of friends in HFD that feel the way I do but under peer pressure will not speak out. I want every firefighter to go home at the end of the day, healthy! Read my posting from 12 noon and answer the questions. You are either part of the problem or part of the solution. I choose to be part of the solution and you throw stones

  19. #79
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    Default Video Tape Request

    Many posts have mentioned a video tape of this fire with a corresponding copy of the radio traffic. Is there any way I could get a copy of this controversial fire? I can be contacted via email at bscott@cityofevanston.org.

    Thank You
    FF Brian Scott
    Evanston (IL) Fire Department

  20. #80
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    xxx feel that the dirty laundry being spread for the whole world to see is not appropriate.

    Yeah it is best to hide what is going on so no one else can learn from it.

    HFD 6 huh? So you get out of the cab walk to the drivers side rear compartment and waalla four 60 minute air packs in the high rise compartment.

    XXXX I think everyone who has responded agrees there are problems with every fire service organization.

    Are the others killing guys at the rate you are, too?

    xxxx if you believe the facts speak for themselve, why are you so adimate about pointing fingers at certain people.

    Well the Union pointed the first finger, I just thought I’d spell it out for all of you what really happened.!

    xxxx If you are on the command staff, you yourself should be held accountable for what happened by not enforcing the SOP's.

    Well, you know the FD is being sued so the top brass can’t speak, how nice for the UNION to then make up the NIOSH singles out staffing story. Hate to see one side of the story and a death politicized. Of course company officers, aren’t to blame, individuals firefighters, safety or the district chiefs right? Seems to be top to bottom doesn’t it.

    xxxxx You can place the blame on every officer in the fire department, but it still falls back on the fire chief and his "staff".

    Yeah it is his fault you don’t wear your gear, don’t where your 60’s, don’t follow the rules, violate SOPs, and abandon a fire officer low on air!

    So let’s sweep all of this under a run and continue to whine poor me, admin is horrible, everyone hates us, 27 or 56 guys aren’t enough to safely fight a fire and we are entering are 5th year without a raise.

    If it is so bad QUIT!

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