1. #1
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    Default Pumping ops difference

    Normally I work on an engine with a manual throttle and pressure relief valve on a side mount pump. This is where I am comfortable at is on this type of set up. A week or so ago I was on a structure fire in the same county I volunteer in but my department wasn't assigned to. When I get there with the County Chief I'm told that I am to operate this departments pump. (Where the original driver/operator was is another debate in itself)
    This departments truck is a 2000 Pierce International Chassis 4-door, top mounted 1250 GPM waterous single stage pump. This truck was controlled electronically with no pressure relief valve.
    Much to my surprise it is a "RPM governed" pump. I had the damndest time trying to KEEP water in the lines! When one line shut off (when the pressure relief would normally kick in) it would bring the truck down to idle, thus killing water to all the other lines. It was like going to China and trying to find something. I was totally disoriented!
    Does anyone else have a pump control similar to this that may know what I'm talking about and help me out?

    *Mark
    Last edited by mark440; 10-31-2002 at 02:40 PM.
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  2. #2
    iceman4442
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    We have a '98 Pierce Saber with top mount panel & 1250 Waterous which is electronically controlled, but the one you referenced must be set up different than ours!

    Ours can be set up by the engineer to run either a constant output pressure or an RPM setting. We normally run ours set to a pressure, but if we do run it with a set RPM, ours does have a pressure relief.

    I'm trying to picture how you'd run the setup you described, but keep coming up with a monkey f*$@&^g a football!

    Find their missing engineer and ask him/her! (How to run the pump AND where the h&## they were!)

    GOOD LUCK!

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    Originally posted by iceman4442
    I'm trying to picture how you'd run the setup you described, but keep coming up with a monkey f*$@&^g a football!

    Find their missing engineer and ask him/her! (How to run the pump AND where the h&## they were!)

    GOOD LUCK!
    I kept seeing the same image all night long! Once I found the suspected engineer I offered him to the monkeys and allowed them to use him as a football...

    I don't know if this could be set to pressure or RPM...

    *Mark
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    It sure sounds like the pump was in "RPM" mode.

    In "Pressure" mode, it would maintain a given PSI whether you had 1 line or 5 lines operating. The pump would throttle up or down to maintain the reading on the master discharge pressure gauge. If a line is suddenly shut-down, the throttle is supposed to compensate for this, thereby preventing water hammer. It should also throttle down in x number of seconds if the pump begins to race/cavitate.



    On our truck, the Pressure sensor went bad last week. This means we can only run the truck in "RPM" which is quite frustrating because, like you said above, there is no manual relief valve. While planning the truck, I wanted to have a complete backup system of a manual throttle, and a manual relief valve. I saw pics of just such a setup recently. It was quite interesting.

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    So, how do you change from RPM to Pressure mode?

    Thanks!
    *Mark
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    Mark440 - nothing against you at all, you did as you were directed, but does anyone else have a bad feeling about someone not familiar with the equipment running it at a fire? Talk about a liability.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  7. #7
    iceman4442
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    Great point! - Goes back to my note to find the "missing" engineer and find out what was going on!

    Yes - having someone unfamiliar running the pump at a fire is NOT a safe way to operate!

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    Originally posted by Bones42
    Mark440 - nothing against you at all, you did as you were directed, but does anyone else have a bad feeling about someone not familiar with the equipment running it at a fire? Talk about a liability.
    Bones, I totally agree! This is what I was talking about earlier, where the engineer was, is a totally different debate though.
    I'm looking for advice on the pumping apparatus, not on legalities...

    Thanks!

    *Mark
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    Yeah I have problems with trucks being controled only be computers. They work really well when they work. But when they're broke, watch out. Unless there is a well designed manual backup, usually a person is up a creek. I don't know. As far as I'm concerned, electricity and water never went together well. This is the way things are going though. As far as working the pump, for future use, I'd try to find out what systems are on other area department trucks and have someone do a training with you and them. Its a little extra time, but I think it'd be worth it in the long run if this were to happen again.

    Good luck, and keep the rubber side down.

    The funny thing about firemen, night and day they're always firemen.

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    Originally posted by flmslayr2
    As far as working the pump, for future use, I'd try to find out what systems are on other area department trucks and have someone do a training with you and them. Its a little extra time, but I think it'd be worth it in the long run if this were to happen again.
    Thanks! That fire was on a Thursday and on Saturday I went to an ADO class being held and spent the whole day operating a pump identical as the one I suffered on. I spent nearly 10 hours that day learning. Funny thing is, the firefighters from those departments (there are 4 with the same trucks) couldn't answer my questions.
    Just this week my VFD was approved to purchase a Pierce with a 4-door Kenworth chasis, 1000 gallon tank, 1250 GPM with the Waterous pump and controls identical to these other engines except side mount. Hopefully the specs will include some training on the pumping systems of these apparatus....

    *Mark
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    Default backup controls

    Here's what I'm talking about. Check this out:

    grr apparently geocities won't let me insert pictures.

    Here is a link to the page.
    http://www.geocities.com/annavillefd/page3.html

    The pic I am referring to is the 11th pic down... the controls behind the door. Check 'em out.

    There are MANY nice touches on this truck. It's obvious a lot of thought went into it.

    http://www.geocities.com/annavillefd/
    Last edited by Resq14; 11-03-2002 at 01:51 AM.

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    Resq14, THANK YOU BROTHER! Those are very nice and very helpfull! I wish these trucks had these options on them. It would have made the night much simpler, but live and learn!

    Thanks!

    *Mark
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    I would think that you were in PSI mode. In RPM it should have acted similar to what you would see with the old vernier throttle and a relief valve in the off position or set too high. Rather than dropping to idle it should had a slight pressure rise. Were you hooked up to a hydrant with relatively high intake pressure? The governer can usually be changed from psi to rpm mode by the push of a button.

  14. #14
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    look up class 1. they make the capt.control(black box ) &fire comander (detroit deisel) they have a video. it takes 3 to 5 sec. to adjust. just like some one said if the sender goes bad there is no relief valve. it herts.
    HAVE FUN.IF NOT DON'T DO IT 806

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    Originally posted by Resq14
    If a line is suddenly shut-down, the throttle is supposed to compensate for this, thereby preventing water hammer.
    Just in case one of our younger readers misunderstand what you are saying...

    There is only one thing which can "prevent" water hammer, the valve operator. If the man on the knob slams a valve shut while flowing water, the pump will experiance water hammer. The more water flowing, the bigger the hammer. There are devices which attempt to dissapate the damage caused by the hammer, but nothing on the pump can stop the hammer from reaching the pump. Water hammer travels back to the pump at an incredible speed (many hundreds of feet per second) and there is no way to drop the pressure in the pump fast enough to prevent it.

    Perhaps you meant to say was that the engine would throttle back to prevent higher pressures than desired being applied to other, flowing lines?

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    Originally posted by Fire304


    Perhaps you meant to say
    hehe sounds good to me.

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    We have a 2000 Freightliner/Pierce 1250 gpm top mount pump. Our truck has a manual throttle and pressure relief valve though. I'm glad our truck isn't like the one you had to pump. Only problem we've had so far is the pump going into gear too slow.
    "Bravery is the capacity to perform properly even when scared half to death."

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    MARK440

    I DISSAGREE WITH RESQ14, I BELEIVE THAT YOU WHERE IN THE PRESSURE MODE OR ELSE THE ENGINE WOULD NOT HAVE IDLED DOWN WHEN A LINE WAS CLOSED, UNLESS THE PUMP WENT INTO CAVITATION IN THIS CASE IT WOULD HAVE TAKEN APPROX. 5 SECONDS AND YOU WOULD HAVE HEARD THE ENGINE SPEED INCREASE (TRYING TO COMPENSATE FOR THE LOSS OF PRESSURE) JUST PRIOR TO GOING TO IDLE. THE ONLY OTHER REASON THE ENGINE WOULD IDLE DOWN (IN PRSSURE MODE) IS WHEN THE INTAKE VALVE IS OPENED AND THE PUMP USES INCOMING PRESSURE TO MAKE TOTAL PUMP PRESSURE. IN THE RPM MODE THE ENGINE SPEED SHOULD STAY AT THE PRESET RPM UNLESS YOU CHANGE IT. THE PRESSURE WOULD CHANGE NOT THE RPM, IF A LINE IS CLOSED OR OPENED. THESE SYSTEMS ARE DESIGNED TO START OUT IN THE RPM MODE WHEN THE PUMP IS ENGAGED.
    WERE YOU DRAFTING OR CONNECT TO A HYDRANT OR RELAY?

    AS TO WHY YOU LOST PRESSURE IN THE OTHER LINES I'M NOT SURE UNLESS THERE WAS AN ELECTRICAL MANFUCTION SOMEWHERE IN THE SYSTEM?
    Last edited by newt303; 11-29-2002 at 10:16 PM.

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    Originally posted by newt303
    MARK440

    I DISSAGREE WITH RESQ14

    AS TO WHY YOU LOST PRESSURE IN THE OTHER LINES I'M NOT SURE UNLESS THERE WAS AN ELECTRICAL MANFUCTION SOMEWHERE IN THE SYSTEM?
    This one's been bugging me and I'm glad someone else commented on it.

    This is what didn't make sense to me. If the throttle was operating in "RPM" mode and a line was shut-down, the truck's RPM's should stay constant and the pressure in the other lines should increase, not decrease. In "Pressure" mode, nothing should have changed (assuming there wasn't a problem).

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    I was connected as the attack pumper in the relay operation. The lay was 4000' long. If I had the intake open, getting 100 psi intake, the pressure going out into the 1.75" attack lines would bump damn near 200 psi at idle. So, being the only way to control it, beings how there was no relief valve, I'd have to fill the tank, close the intake, then operate from tank water until low enough to fill again from the supply. This coming Wednesday night I have some training schedule on this same pump, hopefully I'll know what I was doing wrong or what was happening...

    *Mark
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    try gating the discharge back a little and see if that helps.
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    I had the discharge gated almost closed and still putting out nearly 200 psi with outlet open...
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    then how could have your other lines go limp if you still had near 200 psi in the pump. How did your training go on Wed. night.

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    Newt, I don't know how that did what it did that night. The training this past Wednesday night went good. I now understand the pump and how to run it. It seems very simple. After training the other night, I belive I had to have been in RPM mode. There is really no other explanation, I guess.

    Thanks for everyones help!

    *Mark
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    I think the new electronic pressure control devices are great but, I think that people should be trained on the relief valve controls before they starts out on the new stuff. They will learn alot more from those systems and have a good understanding on how pressure systems work and how water acts under pressure.

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