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  1. #21
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    Or could it be that he is saying that there were screw ups, some of which may have contributed to the death of the Captain. While staffing may have contributed, every other possible deficiency is being ignored. Also that no one seems willing to acknowledge and address these deficiencies.

    I wasn't there so I will not armchair quarterback. He does however raise some interesting issues and questions


  2. #22
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    A lot of people are attacking noholds but no one has refuted, or even tried refuting what he/she has said.
    noholds, are these reports accessible on the internet?
    "When I was a child I spoke as a child, understood as a child, thought as a child, but when I became a man I put away childish things."

  3. #23
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    When you pin the five bugles on your chest, You take ultimate responsibility for the actions of your department.

  4. #24
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    Good point MIKEY
    Let's take this a step further though. What as a Chief would you do about a situation such as this IF everything he has posted here was correct? How would you deal with it?

    On the other side of the coin, as a Union steward what would you do IF this was the situation in your Department?

  5. #25
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    I have no opinion on this particular incident. I wasnt there. All that I REALLY know is that one of my brother firefighters didnt make it out of there. All the finger pointing in the world isnt going to change that sad fact.

  6. #26
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    It's not really what is being said as How it is being said. Most will agree that there is all ways more then one reason for a LODD...But the out right attacks and unwillingness to listen to others veiws is why I think A lot of people get upset
    "DON'T GO IN THERE!!! DON'T YOU KNOW THERE IS A FIRE IN THERE!!!!"

    "YOU'RE KILLING ME ROOK"

  7. #27
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    Default Chief IS ultimately responsible; however...

    Under normal circumstances, I would say that this is an internal matter for the Houston Fire Department, but the city AND the union have chosen to take it public.
    noholdsbared might have had some valid points had they not been lost in the "nya, nya, nya nya, nya" delivery. I was intrigued by the points that were raised, but the TONE of the post was very combative. Rubbing the faces of people who were on the fireground that day that they had an LODD and accusing some of cowardice was just wrong.
    Pulling at the widow the way they did doesn't improve my opinion much either.
    But to address an issue posed by LadyCapn; yes, the chief is ultimately responsible for the performance of the team. However, if SOGs were not followed, then it must be addressed. In a town Houston's size, I would believe that the Chief is mostly administrative. He has Asst. Chiefs, Battalion Chiefs or Deputy Chiefs, Captains and Lieutenants that he must rely upon to "run" the fireground. If it did not come off according to plan, then it needs to be addressed. If there were breakdowns and violations of policies and procedures, then it should be addressed. If the department lacks SOGs, then it is the job of this new chief to get it done.
    He is a new chief in a department that still uses fog for interior attack. He has bigger problems facing him right now. He has a union nipping at his butt and already calling for his ouster. The city, by coming to the new chief's defense has put them on the wrong side of the issue.
    I don't think, other than the NIOSH report, any meaningful report will come out because of all the posturing.
    I agree with Mikey 100%; we have a fallen brother who has left behind a family and fellow firefighters. Instead of making this a poster for dysfunction, they should be supporting each other and searching for ways to improve their department.
    Here's to the fallen.

  8. #28
    MembersZone Subscriber Duffman's Avatar
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    Who is this mystical Larry anyway?

  9. #29
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    Don't you remember... He is our worst nightmare..... He is a guy that can't cut it as a firefighter...You can tell that by the way he talks to other brothers...
    "DON'T GO IN THERE!!! DON'T YOU KNOW THERE IS A FIRE IN THERE!!!!"

    "YOU'RE KILLING ME ROOK"

  10. #30
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    I guess Chief what I was trying to get at was what would we do to change a situation like this? It is fine to say that the Chief is ultimately responsible Mikey, but if so, and if faced with these particular problems (I'm using a hypothetical, not singling out HFD)what can he do to address this?

    If SOP's and SOG's are in place, and they are disregarded and this disregard contributes to the death of a co-worker, is this grounds for dismissal? Would you support your Chief in this?

    What about as a Steward? Can you defend someone who has blatantly disregarded SOP's and SOG's and contributed to an LODD?

    I'm just trying to get some dialogue going here. We are quick to slam both sides, but how would we deal with it?

  11. #31
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    ...In the hypothetical.....

    Ladycapn,

    After every LODD or even evey near miss, you have to re-evaluate your procedures, both written and practiced (yes there is a difference).

    If the SOP's were violated, was this the first time....or is it a common occurence that has never been corrected. That would be a major factor in the whole termination discussion.

    How many times do we have problems on the fireground, but we refuse to address these issues? Even when they are brought to the attention of those in charge.

    Dave

  12. #32
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    Is Larry Stevens a hired consultant for HFD? Yes. The last Fire Chief brought him in for the then upcoming ISO evaluation. The current Fire Chief has kept him. Does he have valid points about the fire? Yes. I believe however, that manpower is being downplayed by him and others in the administration. Did everyone do exactly what he/she should have and at the exact moment they should have? I doubt it. If anyone has ever made a fire of any kind you know that true perfection on the fire ground is the exception rather than the norm. You adapt, overcome and move on while still doing your job. The rub, atleast for me, has been the way in which he airs the laundry here and with such disdain and contempt. The over all "I've got this video and this time stamp" attitude adds up to alienate rather than educate. Pass on the facts as they are and leave the personal opinions, attacks and over all superiority kick at home in Nevada. Was this the first time that SOP's were violated? I don't know that they were because I wasn't there and either was he. I do know we now have ANOTHER revised high rise policy that is even more vague and general than the last. It leaves alot of flexibility for the District Chief in charge. Is this for the betterment of Incident Mangement OR so if something goes wrong they can go after him? The general moral is pretty poor because of a complete, total and all around lack of faith in the experience, plans, ideas, capabilitites and intentions of the leader of the department. Being the largest acredited fire department in the world means what to the guys and girls on the rigs? Nothing because they don't feel like they are part of the plan. They feel as though they are another stepping stone for the admin as they elevate themselves. Being an ISO Class 2 means what? Nothing to they guys and girls on the rigs. It does however mean retrofitting 21 or so Engine Co.'s with an aftermarket, all in one CAFS system in a back, transverse compartment. The same system that weighs in at about 950lbs. and that the rig was NEVER designed to carry. Why is it being done? ISO, plain and simple. The 1st Engine Co. to get one has already cracked body supports because of the weight. Just an example of the situation.
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


    Larry

  13. #33
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Station2 - it sounds like the HFD members are making the best with what they can. Can't offer any great solution, best of luck to them.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  14. #34
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    Larry,

    Very well said....

    Sometimes its not what you say, but how you say it...

    Dave

  15. #35
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    Default Meet the Chief

    Well as ironic and unexpected as it was, Chief C & Mike H & Assistant Chief T, visited District 46's on the C Shift for a District wide meeting to primarily cover FLT. Talk to anyone from 25's, 35's, 46's, or 55's and they will give you all the details. But in a nutshell: Powerpoint presentation, time lines, Video, Dispatch excerts, and the opportunity to ask any and all questions.

    With everything going on with the Postings on FH.com; and the Pending Vote of No Confidence from Local 341; and the implementation of CAFs... it couldn't have been timed any better, don't ya think?

  16. #36
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    Sorry, I've been away for a few days. Nice to see some rational responses. HoustonFD46C, how do you feel after the presentation? Does it seem that some meaningful dialogue has been initiated?

  17. #37
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    Default An Opinion

    In my personal opinion, I think the "unexpected and unscheduled" meeting with Chief & Company at the District Houst came about three weeks too late....

    This is due, to what most of us "Houston Firefighters" (aka Classified Suppression Personnel) and "avid" FH.com Forum Readers found about three weeks ago...

    A very abrasive, long winded, detailed, laundry airing, and opinionated post from firewalker on a topic that he did not experience "IN THE TRENCHES" with the Suppression Crews of Four Leaf Towers (FLT).

    It seems as though the perceived "issues and items" aired on FH.com FIRST.....and then miraculously three weeks LATER an "unexpected and unscheduled" meeting with Chief & Company primarily highlighting items which coincidentally aired online (and originated from firewalker).

    Whether the perceived "issues and items" are "unsubstantiated or substantiated" it seems our Leaders would have chosen to handle this within the RANK and FILE within Houston FD FIRST rather than displaying a "knee-jerk-crisis-management style" of handling a FH.com posting on FLT.

    We can all agree that we can "monday morning quarterback" FLT many more times, but that the only opinions and observations that have any real merit are from those Suppression Crews that were at FLT (and not the opinions or comments circulating from Dispatchers or Non-shift Personnel).

    Like I said before, this is my personal opinion, and in no way represents my crews, units, districts, departments or unions opinion.

    46C
    "Bring 'em Out Alive"

  18. #38
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    HoustonFD46C

    Why do you think they picked your shift and district to show this to??? out of what 21 districts 88 stations and 4 shifts. Just wondering...I would have liked to have seen it. Sorry to hear about your Sr, Captain leaving.
    "DON'T GO IN THERE!!! DON'T YOU KNOW THERE IS A FIRE IN THERE!!!!"

    "YOU'RE KILLING ME ROOK"

  19. #39
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    District 46 "C" is not the only district to see the presentation. District 82 "A", my district, was called together for the same presentation yesterday afternoon. The topic was the FLT fire and we are the 2nd district to see it. We were told by the Fire Chief that all 21 districts on all 4 shifts will be seeing it.
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


    Larry

  20. #40
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    Larry
    i was told the samething about 30 minutes after i wrote that post. hope it doesn't take to long to get around to me.
    "DON'T GO IN THERE!!! DON'T YOU KNOW THERE IS A FIRE IN THERE!!!!"

    "YOU'RE KILLING ME ROOK"

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