1. #41
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    I just got back from the event in Houston. Much to my surprise the chief gave the Four Leaf presentation everyone has been talking about. I did not see anything wrong. I hear the union was out front handing out a flyer that was so grammaticly incorrect I could not get past anything else, this is a professional union right. I also heard they were given the oppertunity to make or add changes to the presentation but they refused. There is nothing left to say. Now I know the truth.

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    TO: noholdsbared

    I have read your post and if you are all so Firewalker then here is your chance to have a meaningful discussion with someone that was at the fire and has an open mind. So if you would like to talk about issues that you brought up, in a respectful and intelligent manner by all means let’s talk. I am not here to attack you or anyone else and would appreciate the same courtesy in return. Let’s keep it to the issues surrounding the fire. I'll be waiting to hear from you
    "DON'T GO IN THERE!!! DON'T YOU KNOW THERE IS A FIRE IN THERE!!!!"

    "YOU'RE KILLING ME ROOK"

  3. #43
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    Default Spelling and grammar counts!

    On the subject of grammar, let's take a look at your most recent post.
    There should be a comma after "surprise"(second sentence). You should insert the word "that" after "presentation in the third sentence. You never end a sentence with a preposition, as you did in the third sentence. "Hear" should be past tense(heard)in the fourth sentence. You spelled "grammatically" incorrectly in the fourth sentence. There should be a comma after "incorrect" in the fourth sentence. There should be a period(.) after "else" instead of a comma in the fourth sentence. Start new sentence "This is a professional union, right"?(Question mark after "right", since you are asking a question-fourth sentence)
    "Opportunity" is misspelled(oppertunity)in the fifth sentence. There should be a comma after "presentation" in the fifth sentence.
    I would suggest, that, in the future, if you are going to attack someone else's grammar, you should make certain that your's is correct.
    IMACOJ-spelling bee champ of 1961.

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    I wasn’t at the fire, I don’t claim to have been, and I don’t work for Houston Fire.

    I have, however, read all three reports, listened to the chief’s report, looked at the HFD’s equipment, rode calls, and spent some time talking to firefighters and officers from the department.

    One of my primary observations was that many (not all, but many) members of the department have clearly not read the reports they are commenting on and know very little of what went on the day of the fire. Much of it is all rumors. One firefighter told me that “The chief is trying to blame it all on us. It was staffing. The NIOSH report made three recommendations on Jay’s death: staffing, weather monitoring, and sprinklering of the building.”

    I have the report right here in front of me. They make eleven recommendations, and sprinklering isn’t even mentioned. In fact, the first recommendation that NIOSH makes is “Fire departments should ensure that the department’s high-rise Standard Operating Procedures (SOPs) are followed and refresher training is provided.” Obviously the firefighters think sprinklering is important, but it’s only listed in the internal and state fire marshal’s reports, both of which they seem to have already dismissed as inaccurate.

    With all due respect to the Houston firefighters (and the ones I was with are a great bunch of men and women), how can they say they have no confidence in the chief if many of them aren’t even informed on the situation?

    While I was down there the chief’s presentations seemed to be going across quite well, but that is only the first step. If the firefighters want to have a strong voice on the situation, it seems that they need to take responsibility in fully informing themselves.

  5. #45
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    Was staffing the cause of Captain Jahnke’s death? I won’t answer this directly, but how could anybody say that any one thing was the cause of a LODD like this?

    Could additional staffing have made a difference in the outcome of the fire? Of course. But we need to look at the big picture here. I am not convinced that staffing alone would have changed the outcome. Everybody would have still made mistakes, and Captain Jahnke could have still run out of air and been left on the fire floor.

    What if the call had been dispatched five minutes earlier, all crews were equipped with full one-hour bottles, and an imager was brought to the fire floor. Could that have made a difference? Of course.

    What about if the crew had a 2 ½” line? What if the line were withdrawn with the crew and the door shut? What if Engine 3 were sent to the right floor, or even notified command when they realized they were in the wrong place? What if E-2/L-28 had a search rope? What if the crews had notified command that they were leaving the fire floor? What if the entire building were sprinklered? What about if there had been a WORKING SMOKE DETECTOR in the condo?

    This is the same kind of stuff that has been killing firefighters for years! We were all taught to close doors behind us, protect stairwells and hallways, and notify our supervisors as to the current situation of our crews and the fire.

    We all know the data on sprinklers and smoke detectors. We all know what a major role air has to play in so many LODDs. We all know how valuable imagers are and what can happen when we leave our equipment behind.

    Weren’t there bigger causes to Jahnke’s death than staffing?

    Somebody stated that staffing is being downplayed by the administration. What about the fact that every other cause is being virtually ignored by the union? How could anybody listen to them when they single out the parts they like from three reports and put it all together to form a lie?

    Staffing has already been increased – maybe not as much as some would like it – but it has been increased. Don’t the firefighters think that some of the other issues should be addressed too?

    The biggest concern I gathered from the firefighters that had seen the chief’s report was they didn’t trust that the recommendations would be followed through. They are worried about things like training, sprinklers, proper equipment, and communications.

    Aren’t these the same kind of things that the chief has said he wants to change?

    If so, then why are the firefighters talking about voting “no confidence” in him? If these issues mean something to them, if they want to ensure that incidents like this don’t happen again, wouldn’t it be more effective for them to get behind the chief and support him? Wouldn’t the mayor be more likely to support the fire department if you firefighters were behind the chief? Or is he more likely to say “hey look, the chief wants new air packs, new imagers, new communications systems(etc, etc). The firefighters don’t support him. I guess I should give him the money.” A union and administration working against each other is just counterproductive.

    Some firefighters felt that things had been left out of the report. Maybe they have, maybe they haven’t. Either way, this indicates the need for better communications between the suppression personnel and the administration. Why would the chief want to talk to any of his firefighters if they do things like stage a walk-out at his presentation? That is ignorance.


    The firefighters need to admit that they made mistakes that morning. Nobody likes to do it, but they have to. Every time somebody mentions it they say “yes, there were mistakes made, but when was the last time you went to a fire that there weren’t mistakes made?” You have to answer “um, I don’t know…never?” But if we really made mistakes like that every time we fought fires, we would all be dead. Let’s face it: there were big mistakes made at the Four Leaf Tower fire. Why can’t the union just admit it?

    The chief/department is even willing to take responsibility for it all. Throughout the all the recommendations in the internal report, the only thing it says the firefighters must take responsibility for themselves is fitness (and it even states that the department should expand it’s physical fitness program). The rest of it says things like the department should ensure this, or make certain of that, or establish training, etc, etc. It doesn’t say “the department will terminate firefighters failing to follow SOPs”.

    Furthermore, how could anybody listen to them if they won’t even admit that “yeah, every company should be equipped with one-hour bottles”, “we should start using search ropes in high-rise fires”, “all high-rises should be fully sprinklered”, or “we need better training”?

    If the firefighters are really concerned for their own safety, they’ll acknowledge ALL of the causes of Captain Jahnke’s death. They owe it to him. I doubt he would have been satisfied with a union that wouldn’t admit to something that could have saved his life.

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    Station2:

    On the topic of rumors....I’m sure you consider yourself to be a well-informed member of the HFD.

    However, it doesn’t seem that CAFSystems are being retrofitted just for ISO. The HFD scored 97.01 points on their rating. 97.01 minus 1.5 equals what....95.51? Aren’t there other reasons that CAFS are being implemented? I understand that Houston has had quite a few apartment roof burn-offs. Couldn’t it be that out-of-shape firefighters who are dragging heavy hose lines around might work a bit better with piercing nozzles and lighter CAF lines??

    Isn’t your volunteer department buying CAFS on your new rig? Why?

    As far as the cracked body supports...

    I think we both know this is not true either. Aren’t all the new engines on bid going to have CAFS? The HFD was already awarded their Class 1, and ISO won’t be back for ten years. Why would they waste their money?

    Wasn’t there a pump module crack on one rig? Perhaps that could be where the rumors came from. But couldn’t that have something to do with running into an automobile? Or was it the CAF unit that hadn’t been installed yet? And aren’t the systems more like 630 lbs., not 950?

    At any rate, wouldn’t you agree that a department like Houston could have all kinds of rumors flying around in no time? Especially when the firefighters really want to believe in them?

    Chief Reason:

    An attack on grammar on an attack on grammar. Interesting... “Presentation” should have a quotation after the word. “I would suggest, that, in the future, if you are going to attack someone else's grammar, you should make certain that your's is correct.” There is not supposed to be a comma after suggest. Since when is “yours” spelled with a apostrophe?

    My point: Who cares if somebody screws up their grammar in a post on the FH forums? I’m sure you could find a million mistakes in my posts. The document handed out by the firefighters on the 17th was supposed to be (or at least should have been) a professional document. It made no sense. The whole idea was just out of ignorance. “Hi, we have no idea of what the chief is going to talk about. Please step outside so that you won’t either. We really don’t want you to know anything about the fire if we don’t.”

    Please feel free to email me if you would like to discuss anything.

    pgvfd1:

    “A lot of people are attacking noholds but no one has refuted, or even tried refuting what he/she has said. noholds, are these reports accessible on the internet?”

    If you’d like to read them, they’re at: http://www.ci.houston.tx.us/hfd/fltreport.html

    Download them fast - they will probably all disappear forever if the union and their lawyer have their way.

    MIKEYLIKESIT/Chief Reason

    “When you pin the five bugles on your chest, You take ultimate responsibility for the actions of your department.”

    “yes, the chief is ultimately responsible for the performance of the team.”

    Of course. Read the reports. Doesn’t it seem to you that that’s what he’s doing?

    “they should be supporting each other and searching for ways to improve their department.”

    It seems that many ways have already been found. The next step is to work together in implementing them.

    Oh, yes…
    “He is a new chief in a department that still uses fog for interior attack.”

    Why don’t you ask Station2 about this one. Owning a combination nozzle does not mean HFD uses fog to fight fire. I saw combi’s, smooth bores and vindicators while I was down there. I think the firefighters have their choice. As could be expected, I saw plenty of tip switching going on. However, it looked like most of attack lines and deck guns were equipped with TFT’s. This does not mean that anyone gets steamed, and does not mean that they have other bigger problems.

    Ok, I won’t turn this into a nozzle debate....but that would be fun...no...well...NO

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    As far as HFD and the preciously mentioned issues, I am not gonna bite and will only address some of the issues you mentioned.

    As for my volunteer department and CAFS, yes we are getting our next pumper with both CAFS and a tele-squrt. Both of those are for not only ISO credit but tactical advantages on the fireground. The ability to have a more effective knockdown and deliver that kind of a knockdown from an elevated device are just as important as ISO credit to the people we serve. The people who have a fire in their business at 02:00hrs are gonna appreciate a more rapid knockdown of the fire and the saving of more of their property than they are the saving of $400.00 a year on their insurance. In the end it is a win-win for our tax payers, the people we are tasked to protect.

    I have chosen not to reply to some of the "leading" comments directed at me, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I also will refrain from speaking on the topic of the FLT as enough has been said already on that topic and the trajic loss of Captain Jahnke.
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


    Larry

  8. #48
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    Default Well,well,well!

    HFDCLanger:
    Noholdsbared was attacking the grammar that was used in the presentation. He did so by displaying his own poor grammar. I was merely pointing that out. I do not take anyone to task in the forums over grammar or spelling unless challenged to do so.
    I did not put quotation marks around "presentation" because that may indicate sarcasm to some.
    I put a comma after "suggest" because I was taking a pause.
    I put an apostrophe in "yours" because I thought it was being used as a possessive pronoun. I saw nothing wrong with it.
    I don't pretend to be the grammar police, but I think that I am capable of stringing together a few properly constructed sentences.
    It is not an exact science.
    I am often amazed at how many want to break an argument down to a personal level and especially where the chief of department is involved. Some of you have all of the answers, but have never looked at it through the eyes of the white helmet. Some should quit their whining and try to find ways to help make their departments better, instead of always blaming the chief and trying to run his *** out of town. There are some good chiefs out there, if you'll give them even half a chance.
    How was my grammar this time? More importantly, who cares?

  9. #49
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    Originally posted by HFDCLanger
    I understand that Houston has had quite a few apartment roof burn-offs. Couldn’t it be that out-of-shape firefighters who are dragging heavy hose lines around might work a bit better with piercing nozzles and lighter CAF lines??
    I sure pose you have a young fit no out of shape firefighters in your department. If your going to make a statement like this I hope you can back it up. It leads me to believe one of two things. 1) You don't make a lot of fires in your town. Because if you had you would know you can't save them all. I guess you have never burnt the roof off anything. Oh ya, that's right you don't have any over weight lazy firemen do you? 2) Just because you came here doesn't mean you know the tactics of HFD. Do you have apartments where you have to lay 600' 4" from the pumper to the fire? Then another couple hundred feet of 1 3/4 to get to it before you can even think of putting water on it? Takes sometime.


    Originally posted by HFDCLanger
    At any rate, wouldn’t you agree that a department like Houston could have all kinds of rumors flying around in no time? Especially when the firefighters really want to believe in them?
    I will admit that the rumor mill in HFD like everywhere else is strong, but to blame it on just the union or just downtown would be wrong. It stems from both places. Neither our chief nor the union does a good job when it comes to informing the membership. But I guess you have a perfect department and know everything.

    Originally posted by HFDCLanger
    “A lot of people are attacking noholds but no one has refuted, or even tried refuting what he/she has said. noholds, are these reports accessible on the internet?”
    I guess you didn't bother to read my earlier posts were I stated not only was I at the fire. I offered an open discussion with noholds. Funny he never responded to me...hmmmm wonder why?

    Originally posted by HFDCLanger


    “When you pin the five bugles on your chest, you take ultimate responsibility for the actions of your department.”
    “Yes, the chief is ultimately responsible for the performance of the team.”
    Of course. Read the reports. Doesn’t it seem to you that that’s what he’s doing?
    I had to laugh. How long were you in Houston for. Did you talk to the chief? Did you talk to the mayor? Who did you talk to? You have fallen for one of the best smoke screens I’ve seen courtesy of the chief and mayor. Reading 3 reports on the Internet does not give the whole story. So much more happens on both sides that doesn't make the papers or is heard from outsiders. Things that the chief, mayor and the union say. So unless you are here to hear everything. It is easy for people to make judgments that are not accurate based off of 3 reports. That would be like me looking at your web site and judging your whole department off of what I saw on the site.

    Originally posted by HFDCLanger
    Oh, yes…
    “He is a new chief in a department that still uses fog for interior attack.”
    Again if you don't want to use fog nozzles in fires don't come to Houston. My district uses them for all most every fire and till this date I have yet to see any one burned from it and Love using them. I used to be a smooth bore preacher. Now i just preach one thing. Use what you want to get the job done.

    HFDCLanger I was glad that you came to Houston and hoped you enjoyed it. I wish I had the chance to meet you and show you around. Maybe next time. If the above sounds like I’m attacking you sorry, but reading your post to me just bothered me.

    And to Noholds......I'M STILL WAITING!!!!!
    Last edited by hfd838; 12-03-2002 at 02:00 PM.
    "DON'T GO IN THERE!!! DON'T YOU KNOW THERE IS A FIRE IN THERE!!!!"

    "YOU'RE KILLING ME ROOK"

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    Posted by HFD838, answering to HFDCLanger...

    I sure pose you have a young fit no out of shape firefighters in your department. If you going to make a statement like this I hope you can back it up. It leads me to believe one of two things. 1) You don't make a lot of fires in your town. Because if you had you would know you can't save them all. I guess you have never burnt the roof off anything thing. Oh ya, that's right you don't have any over weight lazy firemen do you? 2) Just because you came here doesn't mean you know the tactics of HFD. Do you have apartments where you have to lay 600' 4" from the pumper to the fire? Then another couple hundred feet of 1 3/4 to get to it before you can even think of putting water on it? Takes sometime.
    HFD838....

    for the record, HFDCLanger's department had a grand total of 8 reported fires in 2000...the data comes from the Department of Fire Services 2000 annual fire report. Here's the web address of the report to see for yourself!

    http://www.state.ma.us/dfs/firedata/...nualreport.pdf
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Captain Gonzo
    Thank you for that link. It was very interesting looking at what the state is up to. GO PATS...

    ps what does "ftm-ptb-rfb-egh-ktf!" stand for?
    "DON'T GO IN THERE!!! DON'T YOU KNOW THERE IS A FIRE IN THERE!!!!"

    "YOU'RE KILLING ME ROOK"

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    The Explanation

    There you go hfd....

    Dave

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    Were you really “there” like you say! What rig were you on?

    HFD 46C, were you there? Station 46 didn’t make it until the 5th alarm. Dang, an hour into the fire, you were in time to get the first line on the fire. That is fast!

    Well the Chief today finished his17th station today with the audio visual report and just 70 more to go.

    Why did District 5 (the fire floor chief) have to order guys to leave because there were so many guys on the fire floor clogging the stairs. Doesn’t sound like a staffing problem to me is it just too many guys?

    I wonder why the Safety officer couldn’t remember until showed the video of the fire that he in fact did know the fire was on the 5th floor? Opps,

    Hey HFD members, It isn’t the chiefs job to get you a raise. He is an advocate isn’t it the Unions job to get the raise and contract? You walked away from the table when 17 year union president was chief that you ran off. That isn’t the current chiefs problem. The Union leadership decided not the chief to run against the sitting Mayor and lost. It is the Union presidents choice that up until a few weeks ago he did not met with the city since what April? I guess these contracts just invent themselves. Hey the contract that was walked away from is on line in this group go read it, Shouldn’t Stevie have given you a chance to vote on it?

    OK, HFD you want to debate? I’m sorry I haven’t posted for a while, I have a real life. So please indulge me for a moment as I catch up on all the posts. So you want to debate Houston tactics with the world? Ok, make your case on the following FLT events:

    1. Captains telling chiefs crews are on the fire floor when they are not.
    2. Jay not checking his air pack alarm for proper operation at the beginning of the shift.
    3. Jay not filling his air bottle at the beginning of the shift.
    4. Jay using an out of hydro bottle.
    5. Jay allowing his crew to make the fire floor in street clothes of an obviously working fire that he has already called a second alarm on.
    6. Not using 1/3 of your crew.
    7. Engine and ladder crews not informing command that they are leaving the fire floor with 2 firefighters.
    8. Firefighters not telling their own crew they are leaving.
    9. Captains and command not asking for or giving updates.
    10. Captains with out air supply problems leaving a disoriented Captain low on air.
    11. Captains losing 3 of the 4 members of his crew.
    12. Crews waiting in the cab of their rig and not performing their assigned tasks and not telling command.
    13. RIT teams not performing their assigned task and not telling command.
    14. Crews on the above the fire crew choosing what assignments they want to do and what ones they don’t want to do.
    15. Captains not insuring their crew takes up the required gear.
    16. Taking 2 hours and 179 firefighters to apply water on the fire.
    17. Your support for the International President lying about what the NIOSH report didn’t say.
    18. Why does it take 20 minutes to get to Jay when two of your Captains know exactly where he was because they left him and you have 59 guys onscene?
    19. Companies equipped with 60 minute bottles not wearing them.
    20. Companies entering a building, yeah the first 6 to be exact not carrying spare bottles.
    21. Sure companies with crews of 3 can have excuses but what about all the crews of four not doing their job and what about all the crews of three only using 2 guys care to comment?
    22. At 5 am, non of the ambulances in any of the affected companies were out on calls. If you had the report of confirmed working fire in an occupied 42 story high rise burning would you leave the 17 guys behind at the stations to sleep? Or would you say get your tails out of bed?
    23. You saw the videos and heard safety tell the RIT team and show him five fingers and say by name the fire is on the fifth floor his entire crew heard it too, so how is it they end up on the street watching the fire not being their for Jay? Maybe he had too many guys on his crew too? Why didn’t he take his ambulance crew with him?
    24. Why is it at anytime are 50% of all the responding members of the first alarm seen hanging around the lobby versus doing their assignments? Are you sure it is a staffing problem?
    25. Why does the resource crew with four times the time needed to reach the resource floor than the crews who proceeded them never make their assignment?
    26. With all of the above facts, how can you a member of HFD and a Union member want to work with these guys?
    27. Are you proud of command that does not take command of a fire? Officers that will not look out for their crews? Firefighters and officers who endlessly freelance?

    You could always share the facts, like. A vote of no confidence? Really, you mean 50 guys from the district that 3 reports crucify for their poor performance at the Union hall said we ought to have a vote of no confidence. Yeah 50 guys out of 3600!!!!!

    HoustonFD46C


    xxxxxMeet the Chief
    Well as ironic and unexpected as it was, Chief C & Mike H & Assistant Chief T, visited District 46's on the C Shift for a District wide meeting to primarily cover FLT.

    Ironic, all the assistant and district chiefs had their meetings so who is next in line? Yeah all the stations in those districts. Do you suppose it would be better to have the meeting before all three reports were published?

    xxxxTalk to anyone from 25's, 35's, 46's, or 55's and they will give you all the details.

    Why don’t you tell us all the details. Like why guys say certain members at the scene were cowards. Why members want charges brought against certain members.

    xxxx But in a nutshell: Powerpoint presentation, time lines, Video, Dispatch experts, and the opportunity to ask any and all questions.

    So tell us are all three reports a fraud? Are all the videos fakes? Did you get your questions answered? Isn’t saving a dog more important that saving your own?

    xxxxWith everything going on with the Postings on FH.com; and the Pending Vote of No Confidence from Local 341; and the implementation of CAFs... it couldn't have been timed any better, don't ya think?

    Every now and then there is an incredible post on firehouse the above is one of those.
    Facts are facts, they heard them and 25, 35, 46 and 55 all know the truth and they are not buying the IAFF international argument about staffing. Your stations had a presentation on the Four Leaf Tower Fire, with video, with all the facts. The crews at the station wanted to know and used the word cowardice, yes they wanted to know why some of these guys were not charged. There were guys who wanted to know why they had to work with these nuts! Yeah they want to know why Jay was abandoned!

    Timed better? Seeing as how all the district chiefs had there presentations, do you think it is time to tell the troops as well, once all three reports were out? CAFS implementation? You suppose in the city system that just in one or two weeks, the chief went to council, to bid, ordered 21 sets of CAFS gear, got them in already, installed them, just for this??? How about one year ago this all started! You live in a dream world HFD!

    HFD’s own crews know that the crews that day augured in and should be held responsible.

    District by district the chief is taking the facts to the stations and the guys are saying we screwed up!

    It was not staffing that killed Jay that day. And your own crews say so.


    xxxxxA lot of people are attacking no holds but no one has refuted, or even tried refuting what he/she has said.
    noholds, are these reports accessible on the internet?
    ]
    http://www.ci.houston.tx.us/hfd/fltreport.html

    Download them fast, odds are they will all disappear forever if the Union and their lawyer has their way. You’ll find all three reports there.

    xxxx When you pin the five bugles on your chest, You take ultimate responsibility for the actions of your department.

    So the best thing for the new chief to do is leave or fix the mess? Seeing as how this is the second chief in three LODD fires.

    Xxxx Or could it be that he is saying that there were screw ups, some of which may have contributed to the death of the Captain. While staffing may have contributed, every other possible deficiency is being ignored. Also that no one seems willing to acknowledge and address these deficiencies.

    The only conclusion anyone can come to reading any of the these reports is Staffing was a minor issue but the Union wanted it to be the only issue when they went public and political with their press releases. You are right though, stand up HFD and either defend the actions or demand the Union do the right thing!

    Xxxx My guess would be that he feels even if they put 6 guys on every engine and 8 guys on every truck, they would still make the same mistakes, just more guys making them. At least, that's my take on his arguement.

    No doubt about it! Even parachutes on the engines and ladders would have just been left behind like the spare bottles, turnout gear, imagers, etc….

    Xxxxx Has anyone ever said that staffing was the ONLY reason for this tragedy? No, because it wasn't. Did it affect the outcome? Absolutely. So, what is the issue, and w/ whom are you arguing, noholdsbaird / firewalker1?

    Actually yes, the Union says it is and said NIOSH singled it out when they did not!

    So does anyone actually want to debate?

    Here are some topics:

    How important is staffing if no one follows their assignments?

    Why does everyone attack the whistle blower?

    Do you trust the IAFF over the facts no matter what?

    At what point does the Union and the membership need to have some responsibility for their own actions?

    Isn’t it time to say goodbye to Stevie Williams? Let me see 4 years without a contract or a raise. He doesn’t really speak for the membership. The Union telling HFD and other firefighters not to attend conferences where the topic at hand is HFD firefighters dying in the line of duty again. His wanting to hide all three reports on these LODD’s. His unwillingness to stand up at the conference and make the Unions case, after being offered his own block of time. His unwillingness to sit through the presentation at the stations.

    Do you really think just one of the reports is a WHITEWASH as the IAFF says when it says essentially the same thing as the other two independent reports? Hey you saw and heard them facts. Tell us where the books are cooked.

    Should the international hide the reports with an injunction, sweep them under the rug?

    Should you go after members that obviously are lying about what they really did?

    Looking at the front page of firehouse.com, I see the IAFF is up to their post on Friday so administration can't reply. They make a bunch of charges again. I looked up each of the issues in the HFD Report the IAFF and HFD local say the city report does not cover. Contrary to their press release, they are all clearly covered. What is the deal? Why is the Union not telling the truth? First they say NIOSH said something NIOSH says they didn’t say now this front page story is full of baloney too. Can’t anyone else see the Union is just lying?

    What the Union doesn't want to talk about in public is the deal they made saying no one would get in trouble it they cooperated in the City Report. Those days might just be over. With all the public criticism of the Mayor and his administration, action is demanded and action is what you’ll see!

    You’ll soon see the DA’s office open the investigation and interview the firefighters. Unlike the original investigation, when a firefighter is caught lying you’ll see charges this time. There is something about being giving notice and taking an oath and thinking about making something up to cover someone else when it might cost you your job and home. Will see soon how quickly the story becomes straight and true. There are too many time stamped videos of crews doing one thing saying they were doing something else. The Union made a huge mistake trying this thing in the public eye.

    The Mayor has no intent of saying good-bye to his chief, in fact he is thrilled the guys are not happy about this report. A day of reckoning is what the Union has asked for and the Mayor is about to give it to them.

    Wouldn’t a strong Union want their cowards ousted? Wouldn’t and shouldn’t they demand the unsafe acts of their members stop?

    Stand by for news.


    BF443

    You want meaningful debate? First you need to write in a way someone can understand you.

    What did you mean when you said, "If this guy wanted to engage in a meaningful debate maybe we could have learned something or nothing at all." Is that supposed to mean something?

    Seems to me the earlier poster took every IAFF claim and addressed them with facts. Speaking of meaning debate, did he or didn't he address the points adequately?

    2nd You need to post a topic to discuss, why put if off to someone else?

    3rd, when you said, "This only supports the unions claim of the City report being Whitewash!" If no one knows what "this" means and we can't understand your writing, how is anyone supposed to know what you are posting? Now tell us meaningfully where the report or reports whitewash anything. Like most poster when asked a question of FH.com you'll probably run away and not address the topic. I guess will see.

    4th making charges like. "Spinless cowards really bother me." How so and why? You don't post your name, your FD and you didn't contribute anything to this debate certainly nothing meaningful by calling names and speaking gibberish!

    All anyone can take out of this debate so far is the IAFF posts press release claims that are not true. And, the IAFF supports unsafe acts from their membership by ignoring what really occurred. And so far, has made no effort to improve firefighter safety in Houston. Is that meaningful enough?

    So nothing will bring him back? That is what they said after LODD number one in this string of three, And after LODD 2 and 3 iin the string, now we are at NUMBER 4, suppose something ought to change now?????

    Nah, it ain't the Union guys, three chiefs later they are still operating the same way covering up for Union guys who are killing other Union guys and Gals!

    No suggestions, no opinions,not a single thought?

    xxxI have no opinion on this particular incident.

    Just tough luck huh?

    xxxx that one of my brother firefighters didnt make it out of there.

    He didn't make it out or was left? We have words of two officers that he was left. "No Opinion" of being left? Abandoned? No opinion of not setting up a RIT with 55 stinking guys onscene? No opinion of leaving 33% of your crew behind? No opinion of showing up on the fire floor in street clothes? No opinion of not using 60 minutes bottles or filling your 30's beyond 66%? No opinion, none????

    Dang! All these topics and no one wants to talk about real safety and real responsibility of individual firefighters and their officers.

    Chief reason

    xxxx the union have chosen to take it public.
    noholdsbared might have had some valid points had they not been lost in the "nya, nya, nya nya, nya" delivery. I was intrigued by the points that were raised, but the TONE of the post was very combative.


    So if someone doesn’t say something right it is not valid????

    xxx He is a new chief in a department that still uses fog for interior attack.

    Sir, owning a combination nozzle does not mean HFD uses fog to fight fire. Owning and equipping 99% of all attack lines and deckguns with fog tips like Houston does not mean anyone get steamed, does not mean that have other bigger problems. HFD has access to any and every nozzle made and simply chooses to use TFT almost exclusively! Let’s see all rigs have 7 TFT’s, some have 1 vindicator in a compartment, and all have at least one smooth bore.

    xxxv I don't think, other than the NIOSH report, any meaningful report will come out because of all the posturing.

    What? The State report doesn’t count?? What will make a report meaningful other than telling the truth?

    NIOSH’s was the weakest of the reports! 11 recommendations versus 32? Good grief!

    Station2
    xxx I believe however, that manpower is being downplayed by him and others in the administration.

    Well the crews at 46’s yesterday don’t support you now they have seen for themselves the acts of that day!!! Now you’ve heard and seen the report you still think it was staffing even though Jay chose not to use his entire crew nor did 28’s?? Sure it wasn’t a bunch of guys not following SOPs that resulted in a death and a bunch of near misses? Make your case boy! You sure were quiet at the presentation at your station. IN your case you mouthed off on FH . Com and the chief was in your face the next day. Well, you had your chance and chose not to speak so boldly when faced with the facts.

    xxx I doubt it. If anyone has ever made a fire of any kind you know that true perfection on the fire ground is the excepti

    How about simply making a real effort to complete an assignment, or wearing your gear or telling the truth is that perfection? No one is asking for perfection just some sort of professionalism in the basics would be nice.

    vvvv The rub, at least for me, has been the way in which he airs the laundry here and with such disdain and contempt.

    Didn’t the Union take all of this public long before these forums were posted?? No disdain for them? Was the city just to sit back and allow the union to keep lying without response publicly? They threw the first stone and now you are having the facts shoved down your throats.

    Laundry? Let’s see, did you brig up McDonalds and get laughed off the boards? Only 28 guys, yeah that is really poor first alarm staffing. You said fire was not through the roof. It was. You said they handle these fire this way all the time. Al the FS text books say it is wrong.

    xxxx Was this the first time that SOP's were violated?

    Who cares? That means, AC’s, DC;s seniors, capts and engineers are not enforcing the rules and firefighters aren’t either. Is everything the chiefs fault or do the in betweens have any responsibility to do as they were taught and trained? You want to work with guys who will not do their jobs and have a Two LODD fire trend of leaving behind members?

    zzzz The general moral is pretty poor because of a complete, total and all around lack of faith in the experience, plans, ideas, capabilitites and intentions of the leader of the department.

    Your not helping it any lying about all these items. Doesn’t the personnel rules of HFD hold you in insubordination for that statement, even on the internet? Moral? Is it you supported the wrong mayor? No contract and a general I wish we could cover up what the union exposed to the world the real moral problem? Yesterday a D46, the crews supported the CITY report! As they rest of the audience this weekend.

    xxxx Being the largest accredited fire department in the world means what to the guys and girls on the rigs?

    No one will ever accuse an HFD member or pride, bitching and moaning about anything and everything especially what they brought on them selves yes, but pride? Heck no! Gee you are working almost 7 days a month, no one forced you to take the job.

    xxxx They feel as though they are another stepping stone for the admin as they elevate themselves.

    So where is the chief elevating himself? Only three FD’s are larger. Your chief isn’t going anywhere. Is he in this for money? Looks to me he isn’t running away from this fight! What is in it for him, he walks today he makes 84K for life. You’re not making any sense. Care to support your case?

    xxxx It does however mean retrofitting 21 or so Engine Co.'s with an aftermarket, all in one CAFS system in a back, transverse compartment. The same system that weighs in at about 950lbs. and that the rig was NEVER designed to carry.

    Would you like me to post a weight statement (630 pounds) and warranty statement on the unit proving you don’t have a clue what you are talking about? Are you afraid of new technology? You think the rigs will holdup for the two year design life? Doesn’t the 7 year bumper to bumper no questions asked fleet wide defect warranty cover everything at no cost to the city??? First you didn’t do McDonalds revisionist history right now you are attacking CAFS!!!

    xxx Why is it being done? ISO, plain and simple.

    Really, HFD scored 97.01 points, if CAFS has a maximum weight of 1.5 how did that make any difference? Come on tell us expert!

    Could it be the once a week HFD burns off the roof apartment fires for 2 years straight is the reason for CAFS??? Could it be the old, fat out of shape firefighters who are dragging heavy hose lines around might work a bit better with piercing nozzles and lighter lines?? ISO is the reason huh?

    xxx The 1st Engine Co. to get one has already cracked body supports because of the weight. Just an example of the situation.

    Well you know for a fact their aren’t any cracked body supports due to CAFS installation, admin sent the dealer to make sure you knew that! Didn’t they? He talked to you within 8 hours of your post. How responsive do you want admin to be, you won’t talk in public so they have to read Firehouse to refute all your silly bogus DIRTY LAUNDRY claims that you are so upset others are posting. You are two faced Larry! Why is it the other 135 engines on bid will have CAFS as well? The ISO Class 1 is already in the bag they aren’t coming back in 10 years? So why spend the money if it is just for ISO??? See, you are not making any sense! Chief T is not in upper management, he isn’t trying to elevate himself is he? He did the specs. What are you talking about?

    SO LARRY WHY DON’T YOU TELL THE TRUTH, THE FD SENT THE DEALER TO YOU AND HE ALSO EXPLAINED THEIR WEREN’T ANY CRAcKS, THERE AREN’T ANY CRACKS, YOU NEVER SAW ANY CRACKS, YOU HEARD THERE WERE CRACKS or so you say, AND YOU AREN’T MAN ENOUGH TO POST THE TRUTH ON THIS BOARD EITHER!!! You once again slam an innocent vendor. THAT IS BECAUSE THERE AREN’T ANY CRAKCS YOU KNOW IT TO BE TRUE NOW!!!! NO ONE IN THE SHOPS CAN VERIFY YOUR CLAIMS EITHER AFTER SPENDING THE AFTERNOON ALL OVER THE RIG, THANKS FOR WASTING OUR TIME AGAIN, NEXT RUMOR PLEASE LARRY. Now there was a pump module crack, I wonder if running into an automobile and the crack has some relationship??? Nah, it must have been the CAF unit that hadn’t even been installed at the time of the crash!

    Bones42
    xxx Station2 - it sounds like the HFD members are making the best with what they can. Can't offer any great solution, best of luck to them.

    Yeah it really does, walking away from downed members, not filling their bottles, captain not with their crews, not following SOPs, lying, not figuring out how to use their radios, not wearing their gear, yep,,,,doing the best they can!!!!!!!!!!!!! No HFD is far from ding the best with what they can. If you ever drop in a station you can hear a bunch of old women whine about their pay, work conditions and make up stories like Larry.

    xxxxBest of luck,

    that is all they have violating all the above and three times they’d run out of it with four LODDS

    xxx Very well said.... Sometimes its not what you say, but how you say it...

    Yeah, too bad none of it is based upon facts again!!!!!!! Three reports read them and just try to justify the actions. Go read McDonalds report it is a joke as well. So, ever member of HFD has a portable radio except the two members in McDonalds because their officers is out side taking a stroll.

    Station2

    xxx District 46 "C" is not the only district to see the presentation. District 82 "A", my district, was called together for the same presentation yesterday afternoon. The topic was the FLT fire and we are the 2nd district to see it. We were told by the Fire Chief that all 21 districts on all 4 shifts will be seeing it.

    Seeing as how you were broadcasting to the world a pack of lies as usual Larry the Chief thought he’d bring it to you! Still want to keep lying about CAFS, ISO and fire trucks falling apart. You know the truth but won’t admit it!

    xxxx here is your chance to have a meaningful discussion with someone that was at the fire and has an open mind.

    Ok, want to refute what was in the three reports, in the videos, the interviews of your own members?

    Why is it the Union didn’t want there chance to refute the presentation a couple weekends ago? Why did they stop the presentation at the IAFC? It was pride is why they don’t and still don’t want the facts out do they?

    xxxxxxSo if you would like to talk about issues that you brought up, in a respectful and intelligent manner by all means let’s talk.

    Why is it, 28’s and 3’s Captains left Jay?

    Why is it 11’s doesn’t bother to get out of the cab?

    Why is it there never was a RIT at this fire?

    Why is it 2’s and 28’s don’t use their whole crews? If they won’t use their own crews why should we second guess staffing if they saw no need for extra staffing.

    Why does it take two hours to get water on the fire?

    Here is an easy one, true or false, the National Union IAFF lied about the NIOSH report singling out staffing.

    Make your case.

    ONCE AGAIN, A lot of people are attacking noholds but no one has refuted, or even tried refuting what he/she has said.

    So refute, make yor case, you've got four pages of posts and three written reports.

    Try defending any of the major points.

    xxxxJust because you came here doesn't mean you know the tactics of HFD. Do you have apartments where you have to lay 600' 4" from the pumper to the fire? Then another couple hundred feet of 1 3/4 to get to it before you can even think of putting water on it?


    The purpose for the 4 reports was the poor tactics displayed in three LODD fires. So I doubt yo really want to talk abot tactics, do you? Station 2 tried to tell us how hard it was to fight a 3000 square foot unoccupied McDonalds with 28 guys without killing two firefighters at 2 am.

    We read about and hear your own members state they do not do their jobs or keep track of their crews. Heck they won't even fill their air bottles. Tactics? Not having 50% of the crews attempt their assignments? Taking 2 hours and 170 guys to apply water to a fire. Nah you don't want to discuss tactics.

    xxxxhfd838 i'VE POSTED A TON OF STUFF, SO DEBATE THE FACTS

    Station 2 according to the chief you were very quite when he came to your station and your comment about. "all this dirty laundry being aired" must mean that it is all true! No one wants to debate the facts, attack the messenger, the style of the message, etc, but never the facts of the day.

    xxxCAFS system that weighs in at about 950lbs.

    WRONG

    xxxand that the rig was NEVER designed to carry.

    WRONG

    xxxWhy is it being done? ISO, plain and simple.

    WRONG

    xxxThe 1st Engine Co. to get one has already cracked body supports because of the weight.

    AN ABSOLUTE LIE!

    xxxWhy is it Jay's family has such low regard for the two Captains that left him? Why doesn't the Union tell the truth that only 50 guys were in the Union meeting to ask for a vote of no confidence, in a department of 3600 members. Why was the room full of only guys who the report was critical of at the fire? Why is it the Union wouldn't take the 20 minutes offered two weeks ago to give their side of the story if all three reports are lies?

    Clanger,

    Only 8 fire calls, that is more than some Houston engine and ladder companies respond to according to Tri-Data and HFD response records. Of course with a four shift system in Houston those stations and companies would need to run 38 fires to equal your volunteer system, so actually you are busier. As usual, anyone like you who reads the reports knows they are valid. If the reports are false it is because HFD members lied in their testimony. Or that videos and radio traffic was some how altered. Clanger you are the messenger, they don’t like the truth message so thy have to attack you. It doesn’t matter if you run 8 or 8000 calls, you can read, you are correct in your points, and you’ve caught several posters lying. Good job.

    xxxxDo you have apartments where you have to lay 600' 4" from the pumper to the fire? That is hard for you as professional firefighters? Gee we lay miles of hose on apartment fires.

    I guess HFD doesn’t know you have 2800 foot and more hose lays to a draft point for your apartments, That you don’t have any hydrants and 200 foot 1 ¾ hose lays and longer isn’t a big deal. HFD figures his 1000 foot 4 inch hose bed is a lot when your rig carries 4000 feet of 4 inch hose. Gosh, it must be hard to be an HFD firefighter. And your VOLUNTEER ISO Class 5 is better than Houston’s rural grade of a Class 9 and 10. Good thing you didn’t die in the line of duty while you rode with us, you wouldn’t be eligible for the 3 story high monument for firefighter LODD’s due to your volunteer status. See here even when one of our own volunteers is left behind by his paid brethren in a house fire and found during overhaul and never missed by his crew of four his name was not posted on the monument either. Volunteers aren’t good enough for HFD! Opps sorry for the facts I know how you all hate those.


    xxxxxI am not here to attack you or anyone else and would appreciate the same courtesy in return. Let’s keep it to the issues surrounding the fire. I'll be waiting to hear from you

    HFD So I’m waiting for your response to the above, by the did you attend the Class on the fire at Union Hall?

    Hey Gonzo, I gather by your comments to Clanger that You support the abandonment of downed low on air firefighters, not following policy, not fulfilling assignments, losing control of your crew, not filling your bottles before a fire, and leaving 1/3 of your crew and wearing street clothes on the fire floor of high rise fires.

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    Noholdsbarred,

    First off, don't call me boy.

    FLT Presentation by the Fire Chief: It brought forth alot of information that was not known previously to the rank and file, atleast me, who were not at the fire. It, atleast in my opionion, had some valid points that I had not given consideration too before.

    The Fire Chief being in my face: The Fire Chief was never in my face. He shook my hand and addressed me by my name and I by his rank in a professional manner. We, as group, respected the Fire Chief during the presentation. Whether you like it or not, the entire presentation and question and answer period afterwards was civil, professional, and respectfull in both directions.

    Me being quiet during the presentation: Yes, I was paying attention to the information.

    The lies I spread, as you put it, about the cracks: Hey, I got the info from a man who works on the rigs. I never claimed to have seen them myself. Same place I got the weight figure from.

    Trashing the innocent dealer: I think not, the local E-One dealer I have no problem with at all. I think the owner is an above board and straight shooting person. I have never attacked him or his dealership. I have no problem, personally or professionaly, with him.

    E-One products: If you have any knowledge of me, either personally or on these forums, you know I have always supported the E-One line. For years I have tauted their entire line, production innovations, capabilities, safety, strength, etc.

    Overall, I think the presentations being given by the Fire Chief are a good thing. The viewing of all information gathered on this issue can only help and hopefully keep these things from repeating themselves.
    Last edited by STATION2; 12-03-2002 at 10:47 PM.
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


    Larry

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    posted by the new incarnation of noholdsbard
    Hey Gonzo, I gather by your comments to Clanger that You support the abandonment of downed low on air firefighters, not following policy, not fulfilling assignments, losing control of your crew, not filling your bottles before a fire, and leaving 1/3 of your crew and wearing street clothes on the fire floor of high rise fires.
    no...I do not...I have a problem with people making assinine comments..Clanger is obviously a clone of yours... and a little research on his FD and some info sent to me by a friend of mine, ie.,

    There ain't many Langers in Hubbardston, but some search engine work found a kid with the right initials who would've turned 18 about when HFD_CLanger first showed up...

    so..an 18 year old kid who probably just turned old enough to do interior ops in a small town in Central Massachusetts (I know where Hubba Hubba Hubbardston is..it's just outside of Gardner) is qualified to make statements about a city's fire ops by just being in town for a day or two?

    You still haven't answered the obvious questions...



    Were you there?

    Are you a Houston firefighter or are you the infamous author of the "tumbleweed conflagration" ?
    Last edited by CaptainGonzo; 12-03-2002 at 11:38 PM.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    As posted by STATION2:
    Overall, I think the presentations being given by the Fire Chief are a good thing. The viewing of all information gathered on this issue can only help and hopefully keep these things from repeating themselves.
    Setting aside the rumor, hearsay, personal attacks, Monday morning quaterbacking, and ect., this is the most important statement to date...
    Sometimes the truth and facts hurt, but if they are never brought to light, how do we keep from killing ourselves.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
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    during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788
    Elevator Rescue Information

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    Default noholdsbard or noholdsbared; which is it?

    noholdsbard;
    I didn't say it wasn't valid. I said that there may have been more buy in, if he hadn't displayed the attitude.
    The fog pattern comment is from a poster in another thread that claimed to be from HFD and said that they use fog on initial attack. If you don't believe me, go to the "FDNY and the Vindicator" thread and read it for yourself. The only reason that I mentioned it was because I thought that HFD was a progressive department. We got away from fog on interior attacks years ago.
    I downloaded all of the reports. I am in the process of reading them. I will have more to say later.
    Gonzo: were we sucked in by an 18 year old snot nose?
    Jeez!

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    NOHOLDSBARD...

    What parts of my post did you not understand? I never implied or stated in any way shape or form that myself, crew, unit, or district (46 on the "C" Shift) responded to FLT... and any Houston Firefighter would know that FLT was not a "C" shift fire.

    For clarification, I said I "attended" the ever famous "Meet the Chief" Meeting. And encouraging anyone to contact 25's, 35's, 46's, 55's C Shift crews for opinions reflected from the presentation.

    As for you commenting that the WHOLE shift at 46 C supported the material presented... get real, all it did is raise more questions.

    The comment regarding "cowardness" was by 2 members of the district (Simple math is 2 out of 35 members in District 46 C Shift for those not familiar with how many were actually at the meeting at one time). When did 2 reflect the majority... get real!

    Now after reading the level of detail and explicit interest you have displayed on this topic; I do have a few questions for you, considering you made statements as if you were at that meeting.

    Why would Chief C, Mike H, or Chief T, have any need or reason for video taping and tape recording the meeting?

    And if you were there (since you are obviously not a 46 C Shifter) would this surveillance be in line with the new Video and Photography Surveillance Program (aka Quality Assurance) that is aggressively in place now at working structure fires?

    Bring 'em Out Alive

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    Default Man, my head hurts . . .

    after reading the 300 some postings related to the FLT fire.

    Any line-of-duty death creates tremendous emotions in all of the people surrounded by the event. Like ripples from a pebble dropped in a pond, these emotions affect wider and wider circles.

    Larry, if it really is you making these long, fact-filled posts I am saddened that you feel the need to express yourself in such a hurtful manner. It detracts from the important points you are trying to make. Unfortunately, I detected a similar tone in the Houston internal FLT report . . . not very employee supportive.

    Compare the word choices and the phrases used in the Houston report and the Phoenix report on Bret Tarver's LODD. PFD made mistakes, and they also have people with strong opinions, but their discussions are not found in a public forum like this.

    A total of three company officers and three firefighters have died operating in residential highrise fires since 1984. They all came from the first-in company.

    I spent most of my eight years on the streets as a career company officer with first due residential, hospital and commercial highrises. I still have a personal interest in what kills firefighters during highrise fires.

    Many of the issues that have come from the FLT reports are the same issues that came from the Regis Towers fire that killed Memphis Engine 7 Lieutenant Michael Mathis and Private William Bridges on April 11, 1994.

    There was no NIOSH firefighter fatality program then, and the US Fire Academy did not perform an investigation. There were four firefighters on the fire floor without an attack line. MFD high-rise procedures were not followed, leaving the balance of the first alarm sleepily awaiting for Engine 7 to release them . . .it would have been the 30th false alarm for that building in six months.

    A flame front running down the corridor blasts Lt. Mathis, damaging his exhalation valve and portable radio. His hands may have been ungloved. He never got a mayday out. Private Bridges was with the Lieutenant, but stopped to adjust his SCBA and does not get blasted. He is tangled in the cable TV wires that fell from the ceiling after the flame over. They both died of asphyxia, with PASS devices that were turned off. There are other procedural issues with this event. One result of the internal investigation was the early retirement of the division chief and battalion commander that handled the fire, to avoid facing departmental charges.

    The inside team of FDNY Ladder 170 died on December 18, 1998 while attempting to rescue an elderly resident in a five year old, city owned residential highrise. Lieutenant Joseph Cavalieri, Firefighters Christopher Bopp and James Bohan were on the fire floor of the Vandalia Houses, awaiting for Engines 290 and 257 to hook up their attack lines. The sprinkler system was shut down (apparently since 1995) and the engine companies were having trouble hooking up due to the insulation blocking the connections. A 26 mile-per-hour wind gust pushed a fireball into the hallway, incinerating Ladder 170's crew.

    Instead of seeing who is smarter or the most correct, we need to learn from every bad outcome event. Unfortunately, as an industry we seem to have trouble learning from our tragedies. We repeat the little mistakes in procedures and practices that add up to a department funeral.

    1) Follow the department SOPs. If they are too complex or too vague, change them.
    2) Practice like you play. Los Angeles City, Philadelphia, Memphis, New York, Louisville, Phoenix AND Houston have changed high-rise procedures after reviewing bad/surprising outcome events. It is how we move forward.

    The meet-the-chief presentations are an important part of the recovery process in Houston. Phoenix had every fire company from every shift visit the Southwest Supermarket scene so they could get a feel for what happened that afternoon.

    Finally, we gotta take care of the ones left behind. Both the Jahnke family and the extended fire department family are still in the recovery process.

    Larry, you always have the right to express your opinion, in the manner and form you select. My opinion is that you have been insensitive and inappropriate . . . but that is just MY opinion.

    Mike

    Look for an article about residential high rise fires in the February 2003 Fire-Rescue Magazine.
    Last edited by Mike Ward; 12-12-2002 at 10:30 PM.

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    Question One Quick Question

    I was wondering if there was any explanation of why it took so long to dispatch the call? Why did it take 5 minutes from the time of the first 911 call to the initial dispatch to the first units? Amidst all the other screaming this important issue seems to have been overlooked.

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