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  1. #21
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    Could it be the "OLD TESTAMENT" is true then? No matter what we belive it is a blessing that we can discuss this without being given a death sentence for not saying the (correct) party line.


  2. #22
    Forum Member 1835Wayne's Avatar
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    I took exception to your allegation that anyone who doesn't feel as you do will go to hell. These forums were not intended to be a place for religious retoric. It is my opinion that you should take this discussion to some other site, not Firehouse.
    Last edited by 1835Wayne; 11-13-2002 at 08:43 AM.
    I.A.C.O.J. Charter Member
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    "Not for fame or reward,Not for place or rank. Not lured by ambition or goaded by necessity. But in simple obedience to duty as they understood it. These men suffered,sacrificed,dared all, and died. Let us never forget our fallen friends."

  3. #23
    Member JuliaFire's Avatar
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    I'd rather be in hell - at least I'd be getting some action.

  4. #24
    Forum Member PFire23's Avatar
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    *sigh* there have been days where I have thought that I was already there
    To the world you might be one person, but to one person you just might be the world.

    IACOJ-WOT proud

    GO WHITE SOX!!!!!

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    Ok, sorry that it is so late before I could get on here and respond to a couple of things that were posted overnight, but I have been busy....anyways...

    Kiwi- Christianity has had the stoy of the Ark as part of their beliefs since nearly the beginning of time, at least since the very act happened...
    That comes back to Exceedingly Bad Taste
    I do not see how this is bad taste...sounds like a good thing to go to Heaven...

    1835Wayne- hmm...how to respond to this, all I can say is that I am sorry that you don't like what I said, but I have said nothing wrong, and I will not apologize for the truth. I understand that you may not think that this is a good discussion for this forum, but that is why I posted in the Off-Duty Discussion forum, it is a place where all could be posted, unless it is something that the webmaster dislikes to the point that he/she feels as though it should be removed.

    Julia, I sincerely hope that you are only kidding, do you realize how bad it will be in Hell? There is the saying that if firefighters went to Hell, they would only put it out, but that is only a saying. Hell will be a place of eternal torture, there will be no firefighting there, it will be like burning up in the biggest, hottest fire you have ever been in and not dying or the pain ever going away. Anyways, I think that you were just kidding, (I think) Ok, that is about all I have to add to this right now, I will be on periodically for the next several hours to check on any other additions.
    -Kris

  6. #26
    MembersZone Subscriber CJMinick390's Avatar
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    Default Just a point for clarity

    Christianity did not exist as a religion until the 1st. Century, AD. Much of the theology, morals, and ethics of Christianity are an outgrowth and updating of Judaism. The Old Testament, which contains the scriptures dealing with Adam and Eve, Noah, the deliverance of the Jewish people from the Egyptians, the stories of David, and the prophetic writings of Isiah, Jeremiah, and many other writings that laid the foundation for Christ's coming are part of Judaism, and have been adopted by Christianity.

    These teachings became part of Christianity when Jesus, himself living in the Judaic tradition, brought the "Good News" based on the spirit of the law of Moses, rather than the letter of the law of Moses, to the Jewish and Gentile people of the Roman Empire.

    I personally believe that the merciful God that all Christians worship allows many ways for people to come to him and it is not for us to make judgements as to who will be saved. For me, faith and religious beliefs are very personal things. I don't think a public forum such as this one is the appropriate place for such a discussion, but you certainly have the right to post what you want. People also have the right to respond to your postings as they see fit.
    Chris Minick, P.E., Firefighter II
    Structures Specialist, MD-TF 1

    These statements are mine and mine alone
    I.A.C.O.J. Building crust and proud of it

  7. #27
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    Arguing this is pointless other than the fact it is a blast to argue. The existence of God is niether fact nor fallacy. Now here's that $40,000 Education kicking in...

    The point in brief using logic (the logic of philosophy) basically breaks it down this way:

    For those who do beleive in God, you have to agree that God is perfect, does not make mistakes, and is always right. Being that you beleive in God, you agree that God created humans. Humans contain some seemily useless organs, and what appears to be a tailbone. These are essentially proved by Darwin and used in his theory of Evolution. Now the tailbone and useless organs are one of two things. They are either a.) A product of Evolution or b.) Mistakes or Errors in Humans. If you say they are a product of evolution, then you are negating that god created humans, and going with Darwin who says we evolved. Thus proving that a god doesn't exist. If you go with the mistakes or errors argument you are saying that God made a mistake, and that goes against the definition of God. God can't make mistakes so therefore there is no God.

    Wait it gets better...

    Now using the above arguments disproving that God exists, we now prove that God must exist. For this you must agree that God doesn't exist. You still must beleive the above definition that God is all powerful and flawless. Billions of people beleive in God. We have proved God doesn't exist. So Billions of people beleive in something that does not exist. Billions having faith in nothing gives that nothing a power. And since an undying power in nothingwould make that nothing perfect. That nothing would also be all powerful as it doesn't exist, so it cannot command people to beleive in itself. Since it cannot command people to believe in it, and it is nothing, and therefore flawless, the nothing is perfect. By the last statements the nothing is God, because of out set agreed upon definition of God, God must exists.

    Yeah, I'm just as confused as you are, but when you think about it, it works. This basically boils God down to a personal belief and thats it. There is little point in arguing this as there is no way for anyone to win. There is only one way to prove God does or does not exist, and that is to die. You go first and tell us the answer...

  8. #28
    Senior Member huff317's Avatar
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    you go first, and tell us the answer....

    Ummmm, there is one who already did....(Matt 27:50, then 59-60, then 28:9-10, then 18-20), I think that's what he's been trying to say.

    I could be wrong, but maybe he's just trying to help, guys....

    Peace
    Oklahoma Bound!

  9. #29
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    Question ??????????????

    ??????????? Well that certainly confused the crap out of me, but there was a valid point mentioned...the only 100% way to know for sure would be to die and to find out...the only problem would be that it would be too late then. Let's look at it this way though, the basis of MOST (Not all) religions is that you do good things, be a good person, basically works will get you to Heaven. Christians do not believe that, but let's say hypothetically that they are wrong, well since part of their faith is doing good works (not what gets them to Heaven, just proof of their relationship to God) they will be ok, and will go to wherever they say the good people go...Ok well let's say that the Christians are right, then what happens to the people that beleive otherwise??? Sounds like a gloomy day for them huh??? Either way Christians will be ok.

    -Exactly huff317, I am only trying to help...Thanks man
    Last edited by KParker; 11-13-2002 at 03:44 PM.

  10. #30
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    drkblram, I post this with great reverence towards all of my fallen brothers, whether they were lost on 9/11 or on any other date in the history of this great nation, or any other country in the world. I am very sorry that you were offended by what the firefighters said in the memorial service, I would tend to believe that they were just trying to help also. I believe that all who do not accept Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord will spend eternity in Hell. Now this is a very difficult concept, and I am afraid that I will draw quite a bit of heat for this, but this is the sad truth. It is this way because God is a just God, He is full of mercy, and allows all the opportunity to join Him in Paradise, but not all choose it, so in actuality they are choosing to be apart from Him, they may just don't understand what goes along with that choice. It is heartbreaking, but true, that is why I am doing what I am doing, I want to be with all of my brothers and sisters in Paradise, like anyone of ya'll reading this. Take this like I mean it, I am not demeaning the memories of our fallen brothers, that is sacred. The decision is there though, for our choosing.......

  11. #31
    IACOJ BOD FlyingKiwi's Avatar
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    Kris.

    the basis of MOST (Not all) religions is that you do good things, be a good person
    Take your statement one step further. The basis of all societies since mankind first decided to live in communal groups is to advance the group. This is done on a base level by 4 instinctive behaviours, reffered to as the "4 F's".

    Fighting.
    This skill provided food and protection for the group, as well as sorting out the "pecking order."

    Feeding.
    Obvious.

    Fear.
    A necessary skill to recognise danger in time to work out the "Fight or Flight" response.

    Reproduction. ( )
    Gaurantee continuance of the species.

    Now once we started living in groups we started making decisions about what was socially acceptable to the group and what wasn't. People that did not follow the rules were punished in some way or removed from the group.

    Once the societies became larger the rules became more complex and we were well on our way to the messed up shambles we have today.

    If you want an example of messed up then have a look at the book you keep reffering to. It has been added to, deleted from, and translated from translations for 2 centuries. Each time picking up the sentiments and knowledge of the time and place it was translated in.

    Christians can not even agree on its contents, eg, check an Anglican Bible with a Catholic Bible, there are parts in either not in the other.

    I want to be with all of my brothers and sisters in Paradise
    Funny that, you would probably get the same comment from a Muslim.

    Now one simple question for you. How the heck can YOU say who goes to heaven or not.
    Psychiatrists state 1 in 4 people has a mental illness.
    Look at three of your friends, if they are ok, your it.

  12. #32
    Senior Member huff317's Avatar
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    Tell y'all what, though......He (KParker) sure has got a lot of y'all thinking about some pretty profound subjects. Maybe that cause some to be uncomfortable. Maybe some are really and truly taking an objective look inwardly.
    Maybe that's what he intended all along....

    BTW, keep this going. This is good.

    Peace
    Oklahoma Bound!

  13. #33
    Forum Member Lewiston2FF's Avatar
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    I believe in God, however I do think that religion has been a contributing factor in many problems experienced in the world. I ave faith not religion. DFDRev, perhaps you can state this better than I ever could. Faith is the belief in God as a being, faith is belief in heaven. Religion is an organized system of beliefs that often causes the exclusion of those that do not share the same beliefs. I only need to look to Ireland for proof, the protestants and the catholics have faith in the same god, however their religions are what cause them to disagree.

    I have faith in this statement - "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends."John 15:13.

    I have faith that since our brothers who have laid down their lives for another, have the greatest love according to the book of John, they are in heaven.

    This is the way that I feel.
    Shawn M. Cecula
    Firefighter
    IACOJ Division of Fire and EMS

  14. #34
    Forum Member 1835Wayne's Avatar
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    Default KPARKER

    I reiterate:'Judge not lest you be judged' and 'vengence is mine saith the Lord' so how do you explain your stance in this regard??

    There is a term for your behavior: HYPOCRICY
    I.A.C.O.J. Charter Member
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    "Not for fame or reward,Not for place or rank. Not lured by ambition or goaded by necessity. But in simple obedience to duty as they understood it. These men suffered,sacrificed,dared all, and died. Let us never forget our fallen friends."

  15. #35
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    Well I usually do not get on at night, but I knew there would be a few posts that probably needed responding to, so I decided to "bite the bullet" and just put up with my slow internet. Ok so here goes nothing,

    Lewiston2Capt- I would have to agree with you on one of the things that you said, I prefer not to say that I have a religion, because so many people see a "religion" as a negative thing, I prefer to say that I have a relationship. I have a relationship with God, and that goes beyond any religion, or any man's attempt of description.

    DFDRev, I wish that you would throw in your two cents worth, I wonder what it is that you are thinking about all of this, and what you have to say.



    I reiterate:'Judge not lest you be judged' and 'vengence is mine saith the Lord' so how do you explain your stance in this regard??
    Well actually that's pretty simple 1835Wayne, I am not judging anybody, I am not raining down vengeneance on anybody so this is still not applicable to what is going on here. 1835Wayne I am not trying to be negative about all of this, Jesus has offered hope, and I am just sharing that hope. I am not being hypocritical, just honest.

    I have faith in this statement - "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends."John 15:13.
    Lewiston2Capt that is one of the most powerful verses in the Bible, and this is the greatest love, and Jesus himself exemplified this love by dying on the cross and bearing our sin burden. However, Jesus himself said (I know I already said this once, but think it deserves mentioning again) that "I am THE WAY, AND THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE, and NOBODY gets to the Father except through ME. (emphasis mine- John 14:6) This verse makes it very simple, if you don't go through Jesus, you don't get to the Father that is in Heaven. Period. No matter who you are. (Read earlier post for more info. on this)

    Ahh I almost forgot something else I wanted to add- Kiwi,
    How the heck can YOU say who goes to heaven or not.
    I am not saying who goes to Heaven or not, God is, and ultimately each person makes that decision for themself by either rejecting or accepting Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord. And about the Bible, I do not have an exact answer about why the Catholics have the 12 extra books in their bible, and I am certainly not saying that those books are true historically, because they are mentioned in the Bible. As far as the different traslations goes, that does not mean that the Bible has been changed, if you look at the ancient Greek and Hebrew text you will find that they are the same as the Scripture that we have today. The translations (not paraphrases) are the exact same verses with emphasis added to make them readable to the average joe. After all how many people off of the street would pick up the Old King James Version and go to reading. Besides just because it is old does not make it better. The New American Standard Bible had been proved to be the most accurate translation that is available. The KJV was done by King James (who would have thunk that) because that is what his people wanted, not necessarily him. They have not been added to and deleted from. Alot of prayer, time, and consideration went into any translation that is available today. The Bible has been proven over and over by historians, archaelogists, and scientists, it is true, it is valid. It is still good stuff, life changing stuff.

    -huff317 Thanks for the encouragement, I think some stuff is going on here that all may not like, but it is still good stuff, because it is God's stuff!

    Guys, there are alot of you that may find what I have to say offensive, especially as it refers to our brother firefighters, but that does not make it any less true. It would be wrong for me to sugarcoat the Gospel, and try to make it all pretty and nice, but sometimes it is not. I would rather someone tell me the truth that was not pretty, than tell me a lie that was all nice, because the truth may hurt right now, but in the end it will prove to be a much greater help than any lie. I am going to bed now, ya'll stay safe wherever you are, my prayers are with you. God Bless!
    -Kris

  16. #36
    Senior Member DFDRev's Avatar
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    Default I'm here...

    Don't worry, folks - I haven't gone anywhere. I am choosing to remain on the sidelines for a little bit longer. This is a discussion that, certainly as a Christian minister, I have my opinions/beliefs/etc. But I think the discussion is going very well without my input for the time.

    Carry on.


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  17. #37
    Forum Member EastKyFF's Avatar
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    Folks, let's ease off of KParker.

    What I see is people who are not interested in KParker's religious ideas and who are consequently insinuating that there is no God, that Christianity is hypocritical, that KParker can't tell you who will and won't go to heaven.

    Meantime you turn around and assert your own belief that if you die, God will have mercy on you and you'll be just fine, thankyaverymuch.

    If KParker doesn't know who will and won't go to heaven, how do YOU know?

    As a Christian, KParker feels an obligation (instructed by the Bible) to share what he believes, which is that without God, your soul is doomed.

    If you disagree, stop reading this thread, because nothing you post will change his mind. Just be respectful and tolerant, and do not ridicule him or Christianity.

    Earlier I pointed out to KParker why I thought this thread would probably not be effective, but I respect his pluck in attempting.
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.”
    --General James Mattis, USMC


  18. #38
    Forum Member 1835Wayne's Avatar
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    I have no problem with his staements or beliefs except his statement that if you do not agree with his way, you are going to hell. I find it offensive that this thread has been allowed to continue and have asked the WT THREE TIMES to do something with it. Do we really need to discuss this here? Is this not a personall question that each person has to decide for themselves??

    Is the divisiveness that is starting to emerge in this thread a good thing?? I think not. WT end this now before it becomes more of a problem than it already is.
    I.A.C.O.J. Charter Member
    "Chet, get an inch and a half on that!"

    "Not for fame or reward,Not for place or rank. Not lured by ambition or goaded by necessity. But in simple obedience to duty as they understood it. These men suffered,sacrificed,dared all, and died. Let us never forget our fallen friends."

  19. #39
    Forum Member EastKyFF's Avatar
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    "I have no problem with his staements or beliefs except his statement that if you do not agree with his way, you are going to hell."

    Exactly my point! How is KParker wrong to post these beliefs while others are right to post their beliefs that God will spare them?
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.”
    --General James Mattis, USMC


  20. #40
    Senior Member DFDRev's Avatar
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    I can honestly see no reason to end this thread. In fact, it seems more civil than some of the other ones! The discussion is raising some very key issues on both sides that I think need to go a little bit further. And the issues that I am referring to have nothing to do with going to heaven or hell.

    I have been following the thread very closely. At this time I have chosen not to throw in my two cents. I promise you, however, that I will be posting to this thread at some point.

    I would encourage everyone to read past the attitudes - on both sides. You will begin to discover some keys to understanding each other (please notice I didn't say "agree with each other"). Without this understanding we can never truly be a "brotherhood."

    This thread is about more than just religion.
    www.cafepress.com/firerev

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