Thread: Do YOU Know????

  1. #26
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    Default Just a point for clarity

    Christianity did not exist as a religion until the 1st. Century, AD. Much of the theology, morals, and ethics of Christianity are an outgrowth and updating of Judaism. The Old Testament, which contains the scriptures dealing with Adam and Eve, Noah, the deliverance of the Jewish people from the Egyptians, the stories of David, and the prophetic writings of Isiah, Jeremiah, and many other writings that laid the foundation for Christ's coming are part of Judaism, and have been adopted by Christianity.

    These teachings became part of Christianity when Jesus, himself living in the Judaic tradition, brought the "Good News" based on the spirit of the law of Moses, rather than the letter of the law of Moses, to the Jewish and Gentile people of the Roman Empire.

    I personally believe that the merciful God that all Christians worship allows many ways for people to come to him and it is not for us to make judgements as to who will be saved. For me, faith and religious beliefs are very personal things. I don't think a public forum such as this one is the appropriate place for such a discussion, but you certainly have the right to post what you want. People also have the right to respond to your postings as they see fit.
    Chris Minick, P.E., Firefighter II
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    Arguing this is pointless other than the fact it is a blast to argue. The existence of God is niether fact nor fallacy. Now here's that $40,000 Education kicking in...

    The point in brief using logic (the logic of philosophy) basically breaks it down this way:

    For those who do beleive in God, you have to agree that God is perfect, does not make mistakes, and is always right. Being that you beleive in God, you agree that God created humans. Humans contain some seemily useless organs, and what appears to be a tailbone. These are essentially proved by Darwin and used in his theory of Evolution. Now the tailbone and useless organs are one of two things. They are either a.) A product of Evolution or b.) Mistakes or Errors in Humans. If you say they are a product of evolution, then you are negating that god created humans, and going with Darwin who says we evolved. Thus proving that a god doesn't exist. If you go with the mistakes or errors argument you are saying that God made a mistake, and that goes against the definition of God. God can't make mistakes so therefore there is no God.

    Wait it gets better...

    Now using the above arguments disproving that God exists, we now prove that God must exist. For this you must agree that God doesn't exist. You still must beleive the above definition that God is all powerful and flawless. Billions of people beleive in God. We have proved God doesn't exist. So Billions of people beleive in something that does not exist. Billions having faith in nothing gives that nothing a power. And since an undying power in nothingwould make that nothing perfect. That nothing would also be all powerful as it doesn't exist, so it cannot command people to beleive in itself. Since it cannot command people to believe in it, and it is nothing, and therefore flawless, the nothing is perfect. By the last statements the nothing is God, because of out set agreed upon definition of God, God must exists.

    Yeah, I'm just as confused as you are, but when you think about it, it works. This basically boils God down to a personal belief and thats it. There is little point in arguing this as there is no way for anyone to win. There is only one way to prove God does or does not exist, and that is to die. You go first and tell us the answer...

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    you go first, and tell us the answer....

    Ummmm, there is one who already did....(Matt 27:50, then 59-60, then 28:9-10, then 18-20), I think that's what he's been trying to say.

    I could be wrong, but maybe he's just trying to help, guys....

    Peace
    Oklahoma Bound!

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    Question ??????????????

    ??????????? Well that certainly confused the crap out of me, but there was a valid point mentioned...the only 100% way to know for sure would be to die and to find out...the only problem would be that it would be too late then. Let's look at it this way though, the basis of MOST (Not all) religions is that you do good things, be a good person, basically works will get you to Heaven. Christians do not believe that, but let's say hypothetically that they are wrong, well since part of their faith is doing good works (not what gets them to Heaven, just proof of their relationship to God) they will be ok, and will go to wherever they say the good people go...Ok well let's say that the Christians are right, then what happens to the people that beleive otherwise??? Sounds like a gloomy day for them huh??? Either way Christians will be ok.

    -Exactly huff317, I am only trying to help...Thanks man
    Last edited by KParker; 11-13-2002 at 03:44 PM.

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    drkblram, I post this with great reverence towards all of my fallen brothers, whether they were lost on 9/11 or on any other date in the history of this great nation, or any other country in the world. I am very sorry that you were offended by what the firefighters said in the memorial service, I would tend to believe that they were just trying to help also. I believe that all who do not accept Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord will spend eternity in Hell. Now this is a very difficult concept, and I am afraid that I will draw quite a bit of heat for this, but this is the sad truth. It is this way because God is a just God, He is full of mercy, and allows all the opportunity to join Him in Paradise, but not all choose it, so in actuality they are choosing to be apart from Him, they may just don't understand what goes along with that choice. It is heartbreaking, but true, that is why I am doing what I am doing, I want to be with all of my brothers and sisters in Paradise, like anyone of ya'll reading this. Take this like I mean it, I am not demeaning the memories of our fallen brothers, that is sacred. The decision is there though, for our choosing.......

  6. #31
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    Kris.

    the basis of MOST (Not all) religions is that you do good things, be a good person
    Take your statement one step further. The basis of all societies since mankind first decided to live in communal groups is to advance the group. This is done on a base level by 4 instinctive behaviours, reffered to as the "4 F's".

    Fighting.
    This skill provided food and protection for the group, as well as sorting out the "pecking order."

    Feeding.
    Obvious.

    Fear.
    A necessary skill to recognise danger in time to work out the "Fight or Flight" response.

    Reproduction. ( )
    Gaurantee continuance of the species.

    Now once we started living in groups we started making decisions about what was socially acceptable to the group and what wasn't. People that did not follow the rules were punished in some way or removed from the group.

    Once the societies became larger the rules became more complex and we were well on our way to the messed up shambles we have today.

    If you want an example of messed up then have a look at the book you keep reffering to. It has been added to, deleted from, and translated from translations for 2 centuries. Each time picking up the sentiments and knowledge of the time and place it was translated in.

    Christians can not even agree on its contents, eg, check an Anglican Bible with a Catholic Bible, there are parts in either not in the other.

    I want to be with all of my brothers and sisters in Paradise
    Funny that, you would probably get the same comment from a Muslim.

    Now one simple question for you. How the heck can YOU say who goes to heaven or not.
    Psychiatrists state 1 in 4 people has a mental illness.
    Look at three of your friends, if they are ok, your it.

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    Tell y'all what, though......He (KParker) sure has got a lot of y'all thinking about some pretty profound subjects. Maybe that cause some to be uncomfortable. Maybe some are really and truly taking an objective look inwardly.
    Maybe that's what he intended all along....

    BTW, keep this going. This is good.

    Peace
    Oklahoma Bound!

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    I believe in God, however I do think that religion has been a contributing factor in many problems experienced in the world. I ave faith not religion. DFDRev, perhaps you can state this better than I ever could. Faith is the belief in God as a being, faith is belief in heaven. Religion is an organized system of beliefs that often causes the exclusion of those that do not share the same beliefs. I only need to look to Ireland for proof, the protestants and the catholics have faith in the same god, however their religions are what cause them to disagree.

    I have faith in this statement - "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends."John 15:13.

    I have faith that since our brothers who have laid down their lives for another, have the greatest love according to the book of John, they are in heaven.

    This is the way that I feel.
    Shawn M. Cecula
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    Default KPARKER

    I reiterate:'Judge not lest you be judged' and 'vengence is mine saith the Lord' so how do you explain your stance in this regard??

    There is a term for your behavior: HYPOCRICY
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    Well I usually do not get on at night, but I knew there would be a few posts that probably needed responding to, so I decided to "bite the bullet" and just put up with my slow internet. Ok so here goes nothing,

    Lewiston2Capt- I would have to agree with you on one of the things that you said, I prefer not to say that I have a religion, because so many people see a "religion" as a negative thing, I prefer to say that I have a relationship. I have a relationship with God, and that goes beyond any religion, or any man's attempt of description.

    DFDRev, I wish that you would throw in your two cents worth, I wonder what it is that you are thinking about all of this, and what you have to say.



    I reiterate:'Judge not lest you be judged' and 'vengence is mine saith the Lord' so how do you explain your stance in this regard??
    Well actually that's pretty simple 1835Wayne, I am not judging anybody, I am not raining down vengeneance on anybody so this is still not applicable to what is going on here. 1835Wayne I am not trying to be negative about all of this, Jesus has offered hope, and I am just sharing that hope. I am not being hypocritical, just honest.

    I have faith in this statement - "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends."John 15:13.
    Lewiston2Capt that is one of the most powerful verses in the Bible, and this is the greatest love, and Jesus himself exemplified this love by dying on the cross and bearing our sin burden. However, Jesus himself said (I know I already said this once, but think it deserves mentioning again) that "I am THE WAY, AND THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE, and NOBODY gets to the Father except through ME. (emphasis mine- John 14:6) This verse makes it very simple, if you don't go through Jesus, you don't get to the Father that is in Heaven. Period. No matter who you are. (Read earlier post for more info. on this)

    Ahh I almost forgot something else I wanted to add- Kiwi,
    How the heck can YOU say who goes to heaven or not.
    I am not saying who goes to Heaven or not, God is, and ultimately each person makes that decision for themself by either rejecting or accepting Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord. And about the Bible, I do not have an exact answer about why the Catholics have the 12 extra books in their bible, and I am certainly not saying that those books are true historically, because they are mentioned in the Bible. As far as the different traslations goes, that does not mean that the Bible has been changed, if you look at the ancient Greek and Hebrew text you will find that they are the same as the Scripture that we have today. The translations (not paraphrases) are the exact same verses with emphasis added to make them readable to the average joe. After all how many people off of the street would pick up the Old King James Version and go to reading. Besides just because it is old does not make it better. The New American Standard Bible had been proved to be the most accurate translation that is available. The KJV was done by King James (who would have thunk that) because that is what his people wanted, not necessarily him. They have not been added to and deleted from. Alot of prayer, time, and consideration went into any translation that is available today. The Bible has been proven over and over by historians, archaelogists, and scientists, it is true, it is valid. It is still good stuff, life changing stuff.

    -huff317 Thanks for the encouragement, I think some stuff is going on here that all may not like, but it is still good stuff, because it is God's stuff!

    Guys, there are alot of you that may find what I have to say offensive, especially as it refers to our brother firefighters, but that does not make it any less true. It would be wrong for me to sugarcoat the Gospel, and try to make it all pretty and nice, but sometimes it is not. I would rather someone tell me the truth that was not pretty, than tell me a lie that was all nice, because the truth may hurt right now, but in the end it will prove to be a much greater help than any lie. I am going to bed now, ya'll stay safe wherever you are, my prayers are with you. God Bless!
    -Kris

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    Default I'm here...

    Don't worry, folks - I haven't gone anywhere. I am choosing to remain on the sidelines for a little bit longer. This is a discussion that, certainly as a Christian minister, I have my opinions/beliefs/etc. But I think the discussion is going very well without my input for the time.

    Carry on.


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    Folks, let's ease off of KParker.

    What I see is people who are not interested in KParker's religious ideas and who are consequently insinuating that there is no God, that Christianity is hypocritical, that KParker can't tell you who will and won't go to heaven.

    Meantime you turn around and assert your own belief that if you die, God will have mercy on you and you'll be just fine, thankyaverymuch.

    If KParker doesn't know who will and won't go to heaven, how do YOU know?

    As a Christian, KParker feels an obligation (instructed by the Bible) to share what he believes, which is that without God, your soul is doomed.

    If you disagree, stop reading this thread, because nothing you post will change his mind. Just be respectful and tolerant, and do not ridicule him or Christianity.

    Earlier I pointed out to KParker why I thought this thread would probably not be effective, but I respect his pluck in attempting.
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.
    --General James Mattis, USMC


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    I have no problem with his staements or beliefs except his statement that if you do not agree with his way, you are going to hell. I find it offensive that this thread has been allowed to continue and have asked the WT THREE TIMES to do something with it. Do we really need to discuss this here? Is this not a personall question that each person has to decide for themselves??

    Is the divisiveness that is starting to emerge in this thread a good thing?? I think not. WT end this now before it becomes more of a problem than it already is.
    I.A.C.O.J. Charter Member
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    "Not for fame or reward,Not for place or rank. Not lured by ambition or goaded by necessity. But in simple obedience to duty as they understood it. These men suffered,sacrificed,dared all, and died. Let us never forget our fallen friends."

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    "I have no problem with his staements or beliefs except his statement that if you do not agree with his way, you are going to hell."

    Exactly my point! How is KParker wrong to post these beliefs while others are right to post their beliefs that God will spare them?
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.
    --General James Mattis, USMC


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    I can honestly see no reason to end this thread. In fact, it seems more civil than some of the other ones! The discussion is raising some very key issues on both sides that I think need to go a little bit further. And the issues that I am referring to have nothing to do with going to heaven or hell.

    I have been following the thread very closely. At this time I have chosen not to throw in my two cents. I promise you, however, that I will be posting to this thread at some point.

    I would encourage everyone to read past the attitudes - on both sides. You will begin to discover some keys to understanding each other (please notice I didn't say "agree with each other"). Without this understanding we can never truly be a "brotherhood."

    This thread is about more than just religion.
    www.cafepress.com/firerev

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    Thanks Rev. for keeping things in perspective.

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    Wink Family Ties

    Four things that family member should not do and expect not
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    Buy or sell to one another

    Work in the same barn ( LOL )



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    EastKyFF

    You're right it is completely with his perogative to post that anyone that does not believe as he does is going to hell. I'm assuming from your posts that you agree, and that's fine.


    KParker

    I am not saying who goes to Heaven or not, God is, and ultimately each person makes that decision for themself by either rejecting or accepting Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord.
    That is according to the doctrine that you have been taught. Let's just take that a little step further shall we....salvation according to your doctrine is not a one time thing as you have implied. It is an ongoing process, requiring the blood of Calvary to continually flow.


    And about the Bible, I do not have an exact answer about why the Catholics have the 12 extra books in their bible, and I am certainly not saying that those books are true historically, because they are mentioned in the Bible.
    The 12 extra books were not put into the original KJ translation because they couldn't be confirmed in two of the three languages used for the translation.

    As far as the different traslations goes, that does not mean that the Bible has been changed, if you look at the ancient Greek and Hebrew text you will find that they are the same as the Scripture that we have today. The translations (not paraphrases) are the exact same verses with emphasis added to make them readable to the average joe.
    This is not an accurate statement at all. Several things have been removed and/or changed out of the originally KJ translation, which when it was done, the translation was checked twice to ensure accuracy. If there was an error found the individual who was doing the translation was put to death. You also might want to consider the fact that there was a warning given to all in the front and the back of the book not to change or remove ANYTHING, but then I'm sure you know that, after all it is according to YOUR doctrine.

    The New American Standard Bible had been proved to be the most accurate translation that is available.
    Proved by WHO? Does it contain the differentiation between the Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit? If you don't believe me go pick up a copy of the original KJV not the new one, and read oh I don't know Jn 14:16-18, Jn 15:26 - 16:15, Acts 2 (which can also be cross referenced to Is 28:11. They are different you know. As I'm sure you're aware a blaspheme against the Holy Ghost isn't forgiven in this life or the life to come, according to YOUR doctrine.

    In case you haven't figured it out, I became a Christian a long time ago. While I'm sure that you intensions were good, I still do NOT think that this is the appropriate venue.

    That being said, here is something for you to consider, long before Christ ever walked on the earth people lived, people died, people worshipped in their own ways. After Christ was crucifed, the powers that be decided to go on a mission to convert all the 'heathen' people in the land. Those people who chose not to convert were killed. Does that sound like love you to?

    Wars have been raged in the name of god (not capitalized on purpose) on who is right and who is wrong. I have spent YEARS studing many different religions. Fundamentally the majority of them all say the same thing, right down to the "this is the only way". While aspects of the bible have been proven, there are many things claimed by other belief systems that haven't been either way. What about the people who have rememberance of a previous life? Near death experiences? Or have seen Ghosts? According to YOUR doctrine NONE of those things happen. Yet they are documented time and time again. Are those people lying, or delusional? Or could it just be that YOUR doctrine doesn't quite cover EVERYTHING?

    I personally REFUSE to accept the fact EVERY person on the planet will have a chance to hear about Christ before they die (which it also says in the bible, I'll get ya the scripture if you like). It is feasibly NOT possible. Therefore that choice to accept of deny Christ was NEVER given to them. Are you going to tell me they are in hell too? What about the baby that dies shortly after birth, children according to YOUR doctrine are sanctified by the believing mother or father until such a time as they can make their own decision. So are you going to tell me that a baby is going to go to hell because their parents don't believe? Or are you going to fall back on the "we are judged based on what we know" theory? Or the aboriginal people's who have NEVER seen anyone outside of their own tribe (yes they still do exsist), is an angel going to appear to them like Abraham and Lot and minister to them, so they can be converted?

    Are you going to tell me that people who have dedicated their lives to Christ, but might not be born again, therefore are not subscribed to YOUR doctrine are going to hell when they die? Or did your Pastor/minister whatever forget to mention that each person plays a different role, kinda like the boards in the arc. Just like NOT every person is meant to have prophecy, or the gift of tongues (which is different from the baptism of the Holy Ghost), or healing, or faith etc. They all come from the same place, according to your doctrine, that doesn't mean that each person is supposed to have each one. The only thing that EVERYONE according to your doctrine is supposed to have is the "fruits of the spirit" Gal 5:22-26.

    You know a lot of people seem to forget the love part. Witnessing isn't about shoving your belief down someone else's throat, it isn't about broadcasting on network TV or on these forums or anywhere else. It is about LOVE and living by example, and when people want to know they will ask you. You remember that "I have chosen you, you have not chosen me" thing.

    There was some mention about the people who responded to this post who were objecting were afraid or not willing to look at 'life after death'. I take exception to that statement. Nothing could be further from the truth. I became a born again christian 22 yrs ago by my own choice. I was baptized in the Holy Ghost (not water baptism different things) 10 yrs ago, and I walked away from organized religion 5 yrs ago.

    WHY because people who call themselves Christians, born again are the worst btw and often are the most hypocritical, are the most judgemental group on the planet. Assumptions are made and words spoken from a pulpit are taken as law. The very people who are supposed to be reached out to and loved are looked down on, and critized. The most fundamental of all teachings is forgotten, you know that thing Jesus wrote in the sand, the word was GRACE. I'm sorry but I don't see that here.

    According to YOUR doctrine I am going to hell, infact my place in hell will be a special one, because I have been 'enlightened' and walked away. You know what, I'm ok with people thinking that. No one knows the intention of my heart, and that is what it comes down to. I am NOT the least bit afraid of death or what comes after it. The plain truth is NONE of us will know for sure what happens until we are dead.

    Personally feel this should have been put in the "prayers" forum, I suppose then you wouldn't have had you audiance would you? Or you could have worded the subject question a little differently, so people not interested wouldn't be bothered to look, but there again you wouldn't have gotten your audiance. I hope that you are proud of yourself, you can go back to your congregaton and minister/pastor whatever, and tell them that you have been persecuted for your belief. They will pat you on the back, and tell you what a wonderful job you are doing, and how 'lost' the people are that don't susbribe to your belief and have posted their objections here. According to YOUR doctrine that is the way it's supposed to be, right? If you want to reach out and witness to people why don't you try your own neighbourhood, at least then you can take them back to your own church and know what they are being taught, or do you prefer throwing seed on rocky ground?
    Last edited by Temptaker; 11-14-2002 at 12:34 PM.

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    Well I have just gotten back to where I can check this forum, and a little happened overnight I see. EastKyFF thanks for the encouragement, this forum is going to make it I believe.

    1835Wayne, obviously you have some serious anger towards the church, or an religious organization, a religion, or somebody involved in one of the aformentioned organizations. I apologize for this, it happens, but that doesn't make it easier. I do not know what happened, but it was enough to create some serious bitter feelings towards them, and therefore me when I started this thread.

    I have no problem with his staements or beliefs except his statement that if you do not agree with his way, you are going to hell. I find it offensive that this thread has been allowed to continue and have asked the WT THREE TIMES to do something with it. Do we really need to discuss this here? Is this not a personall question that each person has to decide for themselves??
    Once again, I am not the person that said that if you don't accept Jesus you will go to hell, He did, and I am merely repeating His words. I am not trying to scare people to Jesus, and I can not see where I am being negative or condemning anybody. I have a genuine love and concern for all of ya'll and I simply do not want anybody to miss out. This is a very personal question, and each person does have to decide in the end for themselves, but they can not decide how they want to go to Heaven, it does not happen that way. The choice that they make is to either 1) Accept Jesus and go to Heaven or 2) Reject Jesus and go to Hell. That's all there is to it, accept or reject. You are not rejecting me, my religion, or anything else other than Jesus Christ. I reckon I will have to continue repeating this over and over, this is a very valid thread in this forum, as it is an Off-Duty Forum, where all can post. I am sorry that you find that offensive. I do not think that this is something that calls for the webteam to lock it down, this is actually pretty mild like the Rev said. Ya'll stay safe out there....

  20. #45
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    KParker,

    Sorry but I don't believe that 1835Wayne has any hostility towards you or church for that matter. I happen to know that he is a church goer. It just happens to be that he doesn't think he's going to hell in a handbasket because he isn't born again.

    Please don't apologize for upsetting anyone, I don't believe that you are really sorry. It was your intention to stir the pot when you started this thread. I don't believe that any of us here are stupid enough to believe that you are so naive you didn't think you would provoke a reaction.

    Why is it exactly that you left my questions unanswered? You keep saying accept or reject, but you aren't fully educating your audiance. If you are going to come on here and use this forum as your own private pulpit and start preaching then you should be ready to answer some hard questions.

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    Temtaker, I am answering your questions, you posted while I was posting my first post, and then it said I had not specified a valid link or something. I am going to respond give me a chance.

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    Easy there Tempie, you seem quite fired up about this and I can understand that, religious descussions seem to do that to people. But, just make sure you are not doing to others that which you are accusing KParker of doing. Lets attempt to do what the Padre said and reach understanding, not agreement, or acceptance, understanding.
    Shawn M. Cecula
    Firefighter
    IACOJ Division of Fire and EMS

  23. #48
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    Temptaker's Avatar
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    Not fired up at all, just asking questions and waiting for some answers LC

    I have not told anyone what I believe, nor am I going to, other then the fact that I am ok with death.

    I would ask the same thing of anyone coming on here and telling me that I am going to hell because I don't subscribe to what they believe including the Rev.

    I do understand, all I am asking is that he show the same acceptance and tolerance of other peoples belief's. I am not asking that he agree with them or that he subscribe to them.

  24. #49
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    The choice that they make is to either 1) Accept Jesus and go to Heaven or 2) Reject Jesus and go to Hell. That's all there is to it, accept or reject.
    3) Follow the steps of your own religion.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  25. #50
    IACOJ BOD
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    Just a general note.

    I do not have answers for your questions or what it is exactly you are seeking, I will know someday. And then will not be able to give you an answer.

    Yes, I have walked away from organised religion, and from Charismatics / Born Again call them what you will.

    Do I believe in a higher being, call him/her by whatever name you will. That is for myself and those I am close to to know.

    Please take the blinkers off and realise that they are WORDS in a book, The true spirit is within every living thing.

    Can someone please explain if there are animals in your heaven? And how the heck did they get there? Especially as they don't attend many of the churches I have seen. It would be a bloody depressing place without them.

    You worship your way, I will do it mine. You go inside the building and pray for people. I will put on PPE, get on the streets and do something on a personal level to help.
    Psychiatrists state 1 in 4 people has a mental illness.
    Look at three of your friends, if they are ok, your it.

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