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  1. #251
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    Get off the backs off our paid crews...they learn more in one day of duty than you do in a month.
    DUH!!!!! That is why I have said the paid guys should be superior and better at the job.


    Professional IS your attitude, your behaviour.
    Unfortunately, I disagree with this definition. This is part of being a professional. Attitude and behaviour alone aren't enough. You also need the knowledge and the experience. Doctors are considered professionals. In the field of health care you have CFRs, EMTs, Nurses, LPNs, Doctors assistants and doctors. Traditonally the doctors are the professionals, they are (supposed to be) the best in the field of health care.

    Just as a sie note, I don't know first hand about the free time. I do know I have heard more than one paid guy say how great it is that they go to the FF job, and if there are no calls it is just like being at home. They get rested and can actually have a second job with little impact on leisure time. If they have calls then it takes an extra day or so to catch up.

    Maybe I'm a little old fashioned. But I grew up with the notion and idea that a person had to do an hour of work to get paid for it. The only time I got paid for sleeping was in the military, and there you were on duty 24 X 7.

    What is funnt here is it reminds of some other things I have seen. Boss came out one day and told everyone they needed to clean up there areas and keep them clean. The biggest complainers were the biggest offenders. The guys with the biggest messes complained the loudest.

  2. #252
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    Cdevoe.... As PA Volunteer stated, most of the tasks you listed are requirments just to stay on the dept.. and if someone doesnt know the difference between an engine company and a ladder company.... see ya
    My eight year old daughter knows the difference...

    Many of our states volunteers respond to wildland fires throughout the west every summer and work side by side with other state, local and federal agencies... why, becasue we meet the qualifications.

    George is right, time to move on

    P.S. I went to the dentist yesterday and while there I asked him how much training he did everyday.... boy did I get a stupid look
    (I think he does qualify as a professional in Cdevoe's mind)
    Buckle Up, Slow Down, Arrive Alive
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  3. #253
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    Sad............just sad.
    May we never forget our fallen, worldwide.

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  4. #254
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    Default Logic just doesn't work...

    I know that logic is not a factor in this forum, so I do not know why I am going to post anything, but this will be the last...maybe. cdeveo, my Fire Department responded to a single vehicle MVA at 12:30 this morning with multiple power lines down. We arrive on scene and the pt had went through a power pole, snapping it in two places, and then crashed into a concrete pillar. The upper portion of the pole with tranformer and large feeder lines attached was hanging there above the vehicle. We had to cut him out, but he was barely hurt. Yep, you guessed it, he was drunk. He had been driving for about 50 miles before he wrecked, and I would bet that if you asked him he would say that he had only a couple of beers, and that he was ok to drive. but just because he thought that he was ok to drive doesn't mean that he was. He was very blessed, he should have died.


    Quote by cdeveo:

    Unfortunately, I disagree with this definition. This is part of being a professional. Attitude and behaviour alone aren't enough. You also need the knowledge and the experience. Doctors are considered professionals. In the field of health care you have CFRs, EMTs, Nurses, LPNs, Doctors assistants and doctors. Traditonally the doctors are the professionals, they are (supposed to be) the best in the field of health care.
    Wow, so the doctors are the only professionals in this catagory?? hmm...you probably need to be very careful who you say that to, they probably would get a little irate with you...

    -Kris

  5. #255
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    But Mtnfireguy
    P.S. I went to the dentist yesterday and while there I asked him how much training he did everyday.... boy did I get a stupid look
    That is why it is called a practice!
    Shawn M. Cecula
    Firefighter
    IACOJ Division of Fire and EMS

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    In the field of health care you have CFRs, EMTs, Nurses, LPNs, Doctors assistants and doctors. Traditonally the doctors are the professionals
    Wow! Now, not only have you managed to **** off volunteer, paid, federal, etc. firefighters, you are adding EMT's, Nurses, LPN's, and Doctors assistants to the band wagon.

    You seriously need to get a grip.

    Some people ask why we keep coming back to this thread....it's simply to see how outrageous you can be.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  7. #257
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    Originally posted by Bones42
    Some people ask why we keep coming back to this thread....it's simply to see how outrageous you can be.
    We are the rubber-neckers of the Firehouse.com forums! ... and it's just like the rubber-neckers - you look, but you know you don't want to see what you are trying to see, but you can't help yourself - and then you look - and you see it - and you realize why you didn't want to see it in the first place!!! But, you'll do it again next time!!!

    STOP THE MADNESS!!!

    Stay Safe

  8. #258
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    Default It keeps going and going and going.....

    Question:
    How many times has cdevoe changed the topic in this thread? It went from having beer at the fire station, to how many you should be able to drink and still respond, to over the counter medications, to not being 100% all of the time, to how many hours should you train during shift, to the definition of "professional", to career vs. volunteer and on and on and on.
    For my money, cdevoe will never again have credibility in these forums. If I see his name, I will jump his post. He has demonstrated a level of ignorance that is matched only by his total lack of respect for the men and women who do the job day in and day out.
    I am asking the IACOJ guys to shun this thread. I know that every one of us tried to educate him, but in retrospect, it was a big waste of time.
    I agree with George; this guy likes the attention, even if it's contempt.
    He wouldn't make a pimple on a good/bad, volunteer/career, amateur/professional, drunk/sober firefighter's ***!
    Cdevoe; you are hereby shunned.
    IACOJ-Board of Directors, BMI Investigator, Secretary Pro Tem

  9. #259
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    Chief.

    I agree 100%.

    Then I thought "But if I post this I am not shunning the thread."

    Then I realised if I did not post it cdevoe wouldn't know that I have less respect for him than I do for whale scat.

    But if I post it I am responding, damn.
    But if I don't, Chief will not know I agree.

    HEADACHE.

    Chief join me in the Bar for a Guinness and a fine cuban cigar, we can have a reasonable conversation and a few laughs.
    Psychiatrists state 1 in 4 people has a mental illness.
    Look at three of your friends, if they are ok, your it.

  10. #260
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    Unhappy

    Originally posted by FlyingKiwi
    Chief.Chief join me in the Bar for a Guinness and a fine cuban cigar, we can have a reasonable conversation and a few laughs.
    Sorry, Cuban cigars are not allowed in the US....

  11. #261
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    First off..........kparker- BRAVO!! Another voice of reason in this seemingly unending attempt to educate.

    Secondly............As Director of the BMI, IACOJ, I am calling for a ban by IACOJ members of this PUPS replies to this thread. If nothing else we will save our breath and lower our blood pressure!!!!!!!!!
    I.A.C.O.J. Charter Member
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    "Not for fame or reward,Not for place or rank. Not lured by ambition or goaded by necessity. But in simple obedience to duty as they understood it. These men suffered,sacrificed,dared all, and died. Let us never forget our fallen friends."

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    Exclamation WOW

    Well, I just finished reading the posts that I have missed in the last 2 days. Boy am I tired ( I think that means I can't respond to a call ).

    I am done, this guy doesn't have a clue of anything but how to start arguements and divert attention from more serious issues. I hope for only 2 things.

    1. When cdevoe kills someone, it is only himself.

    2. That Mayfield is very far away from my town, so that I know that I will never have him for mutual aid.

    Now, how about all of the "Professionals" go some where else so that cdevoe can argue by himself.

    Have a good holiday.

    -Jeremiah
    "The person who says it can't be done, is ALWAYS interupted by the person that JUST DID IT!!"

    FIRST IN ....... LAST OUT

    It is not all glory, I roll a lot of HOSE!!!!

  13. #263
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    Unhappy

    It just wont die...
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
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  14. #264
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    QUOTE BY CDEVOE:

    "pro∑fes∑sion∑al ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-fsh-nl)
    adj.

    1 Of, relating to, engaged in, or suitable for a profession: lawyers, doctors, and other professional people.
    2 Conforming to the standards of a profession: professional BEHAVIOUR."

    Since cdevoe can't even see that he argues with himself, contradicting himself, it really is useless to continue.

    I won't be back either.
    September 11th - Never Forget

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  15. #265
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    cdevoe,

    I really feel for your family. You are on call 24/7/365....never taking a vacation, never doing the family thing, etc. Must really suck to have someone who is only dedicated to hearing the pager go off. I really feel for your department as well because it seems with the arguements you are making here you are never mentally able to function at 100%. To even compare ibuprofen to alcohol as to the affects on your body is asinine at best. Yesterday was Thanksgiving...but you can bet that today and every day after that I'll be thanking my stars that you aren't on my department.

  16. #266
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    Post Ok...I am in

    Ok....avoided this one long enough...

    I will stand up and admit that I have done it....but no more!

    I can remember my days as a Junior watching the other guys send a runner to the store for a 12 pack or a case after a working fire. While the Juniors cleaned up the other drank a cool one and re-fought the fire from the back step of the pumper in the back of the bay. As I got older, I would join in. Then it progressed to having a beer before a meeting so they could speak their mind (it took that for some) and then after the meeting to discuss how messed up the meeting was. On special fund raisers the plastic inconspicuous cups were plentiful and always full. Calls were run by one and all.

    I guess as I grew older and wiser (hmmmmsome may debate the wiser) I strayed away from that scenario and even tried to institute a no drinking policy on the property.... Well...."we can not do that because then we could not drink at the annual banquet." I suggested a fill-in crew for the evening to address that issue and consider it a special even where no one is running calls... "We are not letting anyone else run our calls..."

    I agree with those that say if you are drinking stay home and if you want to drink do it somewhere other than the station. Just because in my younger days I was stupid, does not mean that I was right in doing it.

    Alcohol and emergency services do not mix. In fact.....even as a Chief officer, If I set home at night and have a few margaritas, I turn my pager off. If they need me...they have my phone number and can call me and I can decide then if it is appropriate to go.

    Anyone read the stories that George Pickett tells about this issue in his book "The Brave?"
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
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    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  17. #267
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    I left this alone for a couple of days to see where it would go and to allow all to reflect on it.

    I threw down the gauntlet to see if some would take the time to do an honest self assesment. I was hoping to wake a few people up and make them see that perhaps they could do more to perfect their skills. All I got in return was a bunch of personal insults and comments about all of the perfect departments throughout the land. I must be nice to have departments like PAVolunteers where all of the members are trained and practiced to the point they make no mistakes.

    As for Professionals and Professionalism. This is not only an attitude, but he also describes a level of expertise. Ever hear the phrase "Let's ask the Pros"? That is another way of saying "Let's ask the experts". I'm sure there is at least one department out that where every member is an expert.

  18. #268
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    and to think... I thought you went away...

    Someone turned the lights off... yeah that is it...
    Always remember the CHARLESTON 9

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  19. #269
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    Originally posted by cdevoe
    I must be nice to have departments like PAVolunteers where all of the members are trained and practiced to the point they make no mistakes.
    For the sake of this discussion, I will assume you mean "it" instead of "I." First of all, yes it is nice. Second of all, when did I say we never make mistakes? I never did, because we do. The difference is, we, along with pretty much every other department represented on this forum, are intelligent enough to recognize a mistake before it happens. Obviously, you are not. Fortunately, you have gotten away with it, so far. Do us all a favor and eliminate the problem before you have to pay the consequences.

    As for "the gauntlet" ... what the heck are you doing challenging people on this forum? What are you challenging them to do? To take a look in the mirror? I have never read where anyone has stated that there is nothing more they can do to be better firemen. All of us can. Some of us (you) need a little more work than the rest of us, but hey, we're all still learning, right?

    Try not to kill anyone today.

    Stay Safe

  20. #270
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    Originally posted by cdevoe
    I left this alone for a couple of days to see where it would go and to allow all to reflect on it.

    I threw down the gauntlet to see if some would take the time to do an honest self assesment. I was hoping to wake a few people up and make them see that perhaps they could do more to perfect their skills. All I got in return was a bunch of personal insults and comments about all of the perfect departments throughout the land. I must be nice to have departments like PAVolunteers where all of the members are trained and practiced to the point they make no mistakes.

    As for Professionals and Professionalism. This is not only an attitude, but he also describes a level of expertise. Ever hear the phrase "Let's ask the Pros"? That is another way of saying "Let's ask the experts". I'm sure there is at least one department out that where every member is an expert.
    I feel like Michael Corleone in the film Godfather III..."Just when you think you are out...they suck you back in!"

    cdevoe: you want an honmest assessment? You have no clue as to what you are talking about. You have strayed from the original topic of banning beer in the firehouse. When you looked for sympathy for your position (if you want it, look in the dictionary..it's between simpleton and syphillis), you found none, so you changed your tack to OTC meds, to more excuses for allowing personnel who have been drinking to respond to your own opinion of career vs. volunteer firefighters.

    How's that for honesty?
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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  21. #271
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    Mr. PA, you scare me more than any. Your attitude that you and your department are so perfect is very dangerous.

    Second of all, when did I say we never make mistakes? I never did, because we do. The difference is, we, along with pretty much every other department represented on this forum, are intelligent enough to recognize a mistake before it happens.
    Question; If you recognize the mistakes before they happen, then how do you still make mistakes?



    Ahh Yes, it is true, the discussion has deviated from where it started, but then again, what conversation doesnít .

    My points in this discussion are still valid. No one has addressed them yet.

    1. While alcohol does effect ones judgement and abilities, there are many 100s of other things that do exactly the same thing. Why then do we songle out alcohol?

    2. Having a few beers with your fellow fire fighters is a good thing. Especially in the volunteer ranks where we rarely see one another than at calls. Social interaction is a great thing and is needed.

    3. In strictly volunteer departments there will be times when you will have to accept the volunteer who has had one or two drinks. After all, we are volunteers, we aren't getting paid a whole heck of a lot.

    From firefighting.com

    What Is A Volunteer?
    Provider: EGV
    WRITTEN BY : Michael O'Neill, FF/TCO
    E-Mail: maoneill@stargate.net , DATE POSTED: 11/25/02
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    INTRODUCTION: I believe most volunteer departments are "requiring" their members to meet standards. Not a bad thing mind you but not quite in the spirit of "volunteering". So where do you draw the line? I don't know but Volunteer to me means "when I can." Not when you tell me I have to"! As always, I welcome feedback and hope you find this article thought provoking.

    Vol∑un∑teer NOUN: * A person who performs or offers to perform a service voluntarily: an information booth staffed by volunteers; hospital volunteers. * Law a. A person who renders aid, performs a service, or assumes an obligation voluntarily. * Being, consisting of, or done by volunteers: volunteer firefighters; volunteer tutoring.

    Voluntairily, a word that may strike some as odd. Being that most volunteer firefighters are not only asked to volunteer their free time...but may be required to give of their time to keep their volunteer status.


    While you may be a volunteer, you still have RESPONSIBILITIES to the fire department that you must uphold. To remain a member in good standing. You must work one bingo a month. You must clean the social hall one-week a month. You must attend one meeting a month. You must attend one training a month.
    And if you miss any of these required functions you are suspended. Not allowed to volunteer. Now this may seem extreme to some departments that are all volunteer. But in my department I am required to meet all of these "requests" every month. If I miss one thing required I am no longer allowed to volunteer.

    And yet 6 years ago I joined a volunteer fire department to volunteer my time. Not their time...but the time that I have available.

    Am I still a volunteer if they require me to do it? NO I am now not a volunteer but a slave to whatever they tell me I need to do to remain an active volunteer.


    Just what is a volunteer? Is it someone who gives of his time? Or someone who is demanded time from? Most departments demand a certain level of commitment. But what if I can only do the minimum...or worse less than the minimum? AM I to be kicked out? A 6 year member of the department? Because my family comes first? Because my work schedule is not compatible with their schedule?
    If a new member can't meet their requirements...they are kicked out. But me a 6-year member can be kicked out for the same reason. Even though I have a family to take care of first and foremost. In order for me to stay active, knowing I cannot meet the requirements I must take a 6-month leave of absence. I refuse to do so knowing I can still help when I have time. But that's not good enough for them.

    When I have time...that's what volunteers sign up for. But we end up with so many "requirements" we can't possibly meet. What happened to when I have time? I'm a new father with another child on the way. I'm sorry but the fire department takes a back seat to my kids. Always has always will. Yet they don't understand that, if I miss one thing I'm gone. Or at least suspended. Is that fair?

    When most members are single and still living at home? They have time to give. I don't yet I'm being penalized for it? This is not what I signed up for.

    I have yet to be suspended but it's just a matter of time. Time I don't have for bingo or cleaning or training. Or anything else they require me to attend. I thought volunteer meant when I can attend. I've come to learn it's not that at all.

    Itís when we want you here. And if you aren't here we will suspend you. I have to provide for my family first, and raise my kids the best way I know how. The fire department comes in second to that every time. Yet I can still volunteer my time and answer calls. Even though I can't meet their standards. Should I just quit till my kids are older? Or should I fight them every step of the way?

    I don't want to cause a problem, but I know eventually I'll be suspended because I cannot maintain the level of dedication that I have had in the past. I still love being a volunteer firefighter, but I can't give them time I don't have. My family deserves my time and commitment, and when my kids get older I can go back to being a dedicated volunteer firefighter. But right now I don't feel like I'm much of a volunteer anyway. I'll give what time I have, but anything above that is asking too much.

    And at least in my department they ask too much right now. I'm a volunteer after all.

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    Especially in the volunteer ranks where we rarely see one another than at calls. Social interaction is a great thing and is needed.
    Sounds like people don't like you unless they are drinking. We are all volunteer and see each other much more often than during calls. Get out, see the world, meet your neighbors.

    In strictly volunteer departments there will be times when you will have to accept the volunteer who has had one or two drinks.
    Not true. Unless your whole department (or majority of it) drinks.

    The last time you volunteered was when you volunteered to join. After that, you have rules to follow and it's that simple. Don't like the rules, don't join. The writer, who's story you posted, seems to want the FD to supply him with gear, supply him with Worker Comp in case he gets hurt, wants them to count on him to be there and be useful (without doing the training) but does not want to put forth any effort?
    While you may be a volunteer, you still have RESPONSIBILITIES to the fire department that you must uphold.
    End of story right there. Responsibility.


    and being afraid of PA's feelings about his department, you will be alone. Lot's of us are proud of our departments and will simply refuse any thing that begins with "After all, we are volunteers..."
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  23. #273
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    Originally posted by Bones42
    The last time you volunteered was when you volunteered to join.
    That sums it up right there.

    cdevoe, the garbage that you spew, and your attacks on people who are striving to make the volunteer fire service better, instead of accepting half-assed, Mayfield-like efforts, are the only scary things around here. Oh ya, that and your admittance that you can't even live up to a half-assed definition of professional.

    Try not to kill anyone today.

    Stay Safe

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    There is no place for complacency in the fire service. My concern for PA is that he show exactly this attitude. He says that he and his department do all that they can and who is anyone to question that.

    Pride is one thing, Excessive pride is dangerous. Everyone of us can do more to be better, to become experts. I would be willing to say that 95% of those on the forums could do an HONEST self assessement and conclude that they could do more.

    The last time you volunteered was when you volunteered to join. After that, you have rules to follow and it's that simple.
    Until I start seeing a pay check I am still a volunteer, It is that simple.

    I volunteered for this service to direct traffic, roll hose, help with the trucks etc. Once I got in and realized the extent of the problem of lack of manpower I then went through FF 1, and FF 2. I then got my CFR certification and I am know working on my EMT-B.

    I'm in this deep because very few want to do the Job for Free.

    Our department number 46 members, of that 21 are clearead for interior. Of the 21, we have about 10 or 15 that actually do it.

    So picture this, It's Friday night around 5:30 when we get toned out for an MVA. The 15 guys show. Afterwards we go off to Pour Jim's (the local restaurant/bar) We all have 1 or 2 beers. Next thing you know there is a fully involved structure fire. You have to take what you can get. 1 or 2 beers is not a problem, 10 or 12 is.

  25. #275
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    I'm sitting here reading this and am again amazed.
    There is no place for complacency in the fire service. My concern for PA is that he show exactly this attitude. He says that he and his department do all that they can and who is anyone to question that.

    Pride is one thing, Excessive pride is dangerous. Everyone of us can do more to be better, to become experts. I would be willing to say that 95% of those on the forums could do an HONEST self assessement and conclude that they could do more.
    Your own words that self assessment and conclude to to more, but you are willing to accept guys that have been drinking? Do you honestly believe these same guys are just as good during a fire with 0 beers as they are with 2 beers? If you are concluding to to more, why accept the "status quo" of all the drinkers? Rise above it.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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