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  1. #201
    Forum Member EastKyFF's Avatar
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    cdevoe: "You guys simply don't get it."

    YES, WE DO GET IT. Your standards are too low, you are risking people's lives and the image of all volunteer firefighters, and we are ****ed off at you for that because your ignorance and recklessness reflects on all of us.

    If people want beer in the station, that's their fault. But on the issue of responding while drinking, I will not just agree to disagree with you, because your stupid actions are hurting the image that we are working incredibly hard to create.

    Every rationalization that you have pulled out of your beer-soaked sleeve has all the sturdiness of a cardboard sailboat. No matter what kind of convoluted, backward, perverted, misguided, ridiculous logic you invent, the fact remains that

    YOU SHOULD NOT GO TO CALLS WHEN YOU HAVE BEEN DRINKING, and

    WHEN YOU DO SO, NOTHING GOOD CAN COME FROM IT, and

    THIS SITUATION IS A TICKING TIME BOMB FOR YOU, BUT YOUR HEAD IS TOO FAR UP YOUR A-- TO REALIZE IT.
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.”
    --General James Mattis, USMC



  2. #202
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    Congratulations...with that one idiotic statement, you have proved that you are far from being professional!
    I don't pretend to be a professional, I do the best I can with the training I have had. Yes I must meet the same minimal standards and recieve the same minimum training. Just because I meet the minimums doesn't make me a professional; or anyone else for that matter. To be a professional you must excel in your field. My profession, is Electrical Engineering. This is the field that I excel in. I have a part time volunteer job as a Fire Fighter/ EMT. I do this job because there aren't enough other people in the community that will do it. I'm there to lend a hand when I can.
    3. Maybe it's a regional thing, but I thought a firefighter was responsible for himself as well as everyone else on his team (company).
    The firefighters/EMT #1 responsibility is to look out for his own safety. Next is to look out for his/her fellow firefighters. Next on the list is the victims. And last on the list are the rubber neckers.

    2. I guess you haven't had one of those real ugly DUI accidents, where the car broadsides another, and ejects 3 or 4 occupants, or the DUI car runs underneath a stopped semi-trailer at 60 mph.
    You are 100% right here. I have never been to one of those really ugly DUI accidents. I have, however, been to several really ugly accidents where the drivers were stone cold sober. According to national statistics For every fatal accident involving a drunk there are 2 involving sober people.
    Since you aren't concerned about alcohol's effects, would you have a problem with a surgeon having a couple beers before he goes in to repair ruptured ligaments in your knee, put pins in your separated shoulder, or performing angioplasty?
    You are comparing apples to cows here. A, the surgeon Schedules his time. B, Doctors are doing work that requires a far greater level of skill and expertise. This can be witnessed by the 7 years of college, several years of intership, and the rigourous exams required to get a license to practice. Doesn't take nearly as much skill to point a nozzle at the fire and spray water on it or to roll the hose. (I'll bet this will PO a lot of folks).

    I can see I'm having a tough time opening up some people eyes here. I am trying to make a couple of points. 1. There are many many many things that effect ones ability to function, look at the big picture. 2. Smaller volunteer departments don't have the luxury to say you cannot respond if you have had an alcoholic drink in the last 8 hours. Chances are, on any given Friday or Saturday night, 50% - 75% of the membership will have had at least one drink. You have to evaluate your condition at that time and determine if you can respond effectively.

    More than once, the pager has gone off and I have staed home. I know my limits, if I feel a little bit of a "buzz" I don't go. If I have had 1 or 2 beers I can effectively respond. FYI, I wouldn't even be at the 0.04% BAC. Perhaps the solution is to have the safety officer do a breathalyzer test on all responders. Lees than 0.04% and you are OK. And while he is at it he could do a quick assesment of the persons mental status. A blood test would be reasonable too, need to see if there are any drugs in the system.

  3. #203
    Protective Economist Jonathan Bastian's Avatar
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    Originally posted by cdevoe
    I don't pretend to be a professional, I do the best I can with the training I have had. Yes I must meet the same minimal standards and recieve the same minimum training. Just because I meet the minimums doesn't make me a professional; or anyone else for that matter. To be a professional you must excel in your field. My profession, is Electrical Engineering. This is the field that I excel in. I have a part time volunteer job as a Fire Fighter/ EMT. I do this job because there aren't enough other people in the community that will do it. I'm there to lend a hand when I can.

    I can see I'm having a tough time opening up some people eyes here. I am trying to make a couple of points. 1. There are many many many things that effect ones ability to function, look at the big picture. 2. Smaller volunteer departments don't have the luxury to say you cannot respond if you have had an alcoholic drink in the last 8 hours. Chances are, on any given Friday or Saturday night, 50% - 75% of the membership will have had at least one drink. You have to evaluate your condition at that time and determine if you can respond effectively.
    First, I encourage you to view professionalism as an attitude, not a pay status. Second, no one has challenged that other things affect judgement. Most have agreed that mind-altering substances of any kind should be reason not to respond. And VFD's DO have a choice. It's called shift work, and it does work.

  4. #204
    Forum Member EastKyFF's Avatar
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    “I don't pretend to be a professional.”
    No, you sure as hell don’t. I don’t pretend to be one either, I AM one. You clearly do not think you are, or aspire to be.

    “To be a professional you must excel in your field.”
    So you admit you are a sucky firefighter?

    “My profession, is Electrical Engineering.”
    So how many can you drink and still be a good electrical engineer? Or according to your standards, a good-enough electrical engineer?

    “the surgeon Schedules his time.”
    Not always. That is why he (OR SHE) carries a pager when not in the hospital. And I’ll bet he (OR SHE) doesn’t drink when on call. I bet he/she even has someone–gasp!–cover for him/her when he/she wants to drink!

    “Smaller volunteer departments don't have the luxury to say you cannot respond if you have had an alcoholic drink in the last 8 hours.”
    It’s not a luxury. It is what we owe our citizens. Maybe it's time for a recruiting drive.

    “Chances are, on any given Friday or Saturday night, 50% - 75% of the membership will have had at least one drink.”
    Maybe in Mayfield, but not here. At most we might have one member with any alcohol in his system on any given Friday or Saturday night. The same might apply to you if you weren’t so busy marketing your FD as a beer club.

    “According to national statistics For every fatal accident involving a drunk there are 2 involving sober people.”
    Oh, the cardboard sailboat is adrift again!

    Let’s say there are 60,000 vehicles on the road today, with 54,000 of them (90%) driven by sober drivers and 6,000 of them (10%) driven by drunks. Of those 60,000 total vehicles, let’s say 600 of them wreck (1% of the total cars). There were 200 wrecks caused by drunks and 400 caused by sober drivers. So yes, twice as many sober drivers wrecked as drunk drivers.

    BUT...

    The 400 sober drivers who wrecked were just 0.75% of the total sober drivers. The 200 drunks who wrecked were 3.33% of the total drunk drivers on the road. So while there were twice as many wrecks caused by sober drivers, the drunks wrecked at a RATE that was 450% of the sober drivers.

    This is the downfall of statistics: That any nut can distort them for his/her own purposes. Evidently you have concluded that you drive better when drunk.
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.”
    --General James Mattis, USMC


  5. #205
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    So you admit you are a sucky firefighter?
    No sir, I admit that I am an amateur.

    pro·fes·sion·al ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-fsh-nl)
    adj.

    1 Of, relating to, engaged in, or suitable for a profession: lawyers, doctors, and other professional people.
    2 Conforming to the standards of a profession: professional behavior.
    3 Engaging in a given activity as a source of livelihood or as a career: a professional writer.
    4 Performed by persons receiving pay: professional football.
    Having or showing great skill; expert: a professional repair job.

    n.
    1 A person following a profession, especially a learned profession.
    2 One who earns a living in a given or implied occupation: hired a professional to decorate the house.
    3 A skilled practitioner; an expert.

    I just don't believe that someone can work at something part time and be a professional. FYI, there are a few vollies out there who do treat it like a full time job. They have the luxury of being able to put 50 to 60 hours a week into the job.

    “the surgeon Schedules his time.”
    Not always. That is why he (OR SHE) carries a pager when not in the hospital. And I’ll bet he (OR SHE) doesn’t drink when on call. I bet he/she even has someone–gasp!–cover for him/her when he/she wants to drink!
    I too bet they don't drink while on call. But in most cases they are on call for a week and then off for 4 weeks.
    “Chances are, on any given Friday or Saturday night, 50% - 75% of the membership will have had at least one drink.” Maybe in Mayfield, but not here. At most we might have one member with any alcohol in his system on any given Friday or Saturday night. The same might apply to you if you weren’t so busy marketing your FD as a beer club.
    Either you live in a dry county or there are only 2 people in the department. You each take turns.

  6. #206
    MembersZone Subscriber jaybird210's Avatar
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    Default I can't stand it I can't stand I CAN'T STAND IT

    More pearls of wisdom from devoe:

    From your definition of professional, verb usage:
    2 Conforming to the standards of a profession: professional behavior.
    Noun usage:
    1 A person following a profession, especially a learned profession.
    In my experience, and I stress here devoe, I come from a small, volunteer department, 26 members, 2000 pop served, 170 calls per year, we are ALL PROFESSIONALS. Why? See the two definitions above. It is, as JB says, an attitude. We have all met some level of training here; whether it is state certifications or in-house. That's why it's called training. "A learned profession." But, then again, we don't do our training under the influence.

    I don't care who you are, or where you come from, or what your background is; You cannot meet the first definition if you respond to calls with alcohol in your system. And you can meet the second definition if you train. And oddly enough, you can be a professional even if you do this part-time. It is all about attitude. And training. I understand that we have other full-time jobs. If electrical engineering was your hobby instead of your "Profession," would you do that half-*****ed or half-$#!+faced, too?

    From the National Highway Traffic Safety Admin.:
    BAC and impairment....

    At this BAC.......this suffers impairment
    .01...........Divided attention, choice reaction, visual function
    .02...........tracking and steering
    .03...........eye movement control, standing steadiness, emergency response
    .04...........coordinaiton
    .06...........information processing, judgemnt

    The rest of it is immaterial to this discussion.

    According to MADD (I know, devoe, but it was the only source I could find quickly), this is the average number of drinks an average 170# male can consume to equal the associated BAC:

    Drinks in ONE hour = BAC
    2 = .03
    3 = .04
    4 = .07

    Drinks in TWO hours = BAC
    3 = .02
    4 = .05
    Last edited by jaybird210; 11-25-2002 at 01:05 PM.
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  7. #207
    MembersZone Subscriber ChiefReason's Avatar
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    Default "Amateur" doesn't adequately describe!

    Cdevoe:
    In the days of Mongo, he would have shredded your statements on many fronts.
    Just when I thought that you had taken some valuable advice from this thread, you posted again.
    Here's my problem:
    You state that you are a volunteer firefighter, but an amateur. Though you may engage in behavior that is amateurish, if you have taken training and applied those skills, I wouldn't describe you as an "amateur".
    That said, I wouldn't describe you as "professional" either. And I couldn't help but notice that you seem to be a little jealous or envious of the volunteers who can devote alot of time to their department. You stated that someone who works part-time is not a professional. My sister, who teaches part-time, would be disappointed to hear that and my other sister, who is a nurse part-time would give you a swift knee to the groin if you told her that she wasn't a professional.
    Your arguments are getting very thin and almost transparent. As you have discovered, there are many, many volunteer firefighters who take what they do quite seriously and even those who may drink were not foolish enough to come in here and say that they do. They know what can happen, so they don't share their dirty little secret. Oh, and don't say "at least I had the balls". "Bravery" and "honor" are the cornerstones of the fire service. You have neither. So, before you say something else that will embarrass your department, quietly slip back into the scenery.
    And thank your lucky stars that you didn't get your lesson, ala Mongo.
    IMACOJ-professional volunteer firefighter and proud of it.

  8. #208
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    I guess it comes down to my standards of professionalism. I feel to be a professional you must devote a large part of your life to the practice. Just because someone is an amatuer doesn't mean they don't do their best.

    I personnally don't feel that someone can be a professional on a part time basis. Sorry, that is my opinion. Not all who practice a particualr trade are professionals.

    I don't have the time to practice daily putting on an SCBA. I don't have the time to practice to get better at putting on my turn out gear. I don't have the time to practice running the pumps and other equipment. We meet once a week on Mondays for a couple of hours. During that time we check the equipment, clean the station, and on 2 nights a month we do training. This is not nearly enough to get to the professional level. I would dare to say that there is not a volunteer department around where all members are proficient at every aspect of the job. There are some who are proficient at putting on the SCBA and attacking the fire. There are some who are proficient at running the equipment. There are some who are proficient at performing EMS.

    In the professional ranks, you are assigned a position at the begining of the shift. Each person knows exactly what they need to do and what the other members of the team will be doing. In the volunteer ranks you never know who will show. Hence you don't know who will be doing what. For instance, I arrive at the station and ride in the truck to the scene. I know with 90% certainty that the driver of the truck will be running the truck. If this is the first attack truck he will make sure that there is water available. I don't know until I get on the scene what I will be doing. I might assist with setting up the trucks. I might put on an SCBA and attack. You just don't know. A professional team will function like a well oiled machine. Most volunteer departments arrive to a scene of chaos which we try to bring some sort of control to. Assignments are handed out once you get to the scene, not in advance. I know in the truck there is usually a little conversation, when we get there you do this and I will do that. It could be the second truck in arrives and they don't know what to do. Somebody will have to stop what they are doing and assist.

    There are hundreds of football playes in the world, only a few are professionals.

    From the National Highway Traffic Safety Admin.:
    BAC and impairment....

    At this BAC.......this suffers impairment
    .01...........Divided attention, choice reaction, visual function
    .02...........tracking and steering
    .03...........eye movement control, standing steadiness, emergency response
    .04...........coordinaiton
    .06...........information processing, judgemnt
    I wonder how fatigue figures into this. I know I make worse judgements when I ma tired and fatigued than I do after a coule of beers. Unless both happpen to coincide, which is a double whammy.

    According to MADD (I know, devoe, but it was the only source I could find quickly), this is the average number of drinks an average 170# male can consume to equal the associated BAC:

    Drinks in ONE hour = BAC
    2 = .03
    3 = .04
    4 = .07

    Drinks in TWO hours = BAC
    3 = .02
    4 = .05
    So based on this a 250 pound male should be able to drink 2 drinks in an hour and still be able to perform.

  9. #209
    Forum Member EastKyFF's Avatar
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    “But in most cases they are on call for a week and then off for 4 weeks.”
    And don’t you figure for that one week, they are clean and sober??

    “Either you live in a dry county or there are only 2 people in the department. You each take turns.”
    Acting like I am on the Mayberry Fire Department does not infuse common sense into your arguments. You just go right ahead into as many wet counties as you want and see how long it takes to find a well-staffed, sober fire department. Not long, pal, not long.

    “I would dare to say that there is not a volunteer department around where all members are proficient at every aspect of the job.”
    Come on down Tuesday and we’ll show you one.

    “Hence you don't know who will be doing what.”
    A good reason for “all members to be proficient at every aspect of the job.”

    “I wonder how fatigue figures into this.”
    Well, it sure won’t make it any better, will it? “Thank God I’m so sleepy! Otherwise I’d be sooo drunk right now!”

    “So based on this a 250 pound male should be able to drink 2 drinks in an hour and still be able to perform.”
    That should sound really good in court, especially to the family whose house burned down!

    “2 nights a month we do training.”
    Four nights a month we do training (five if there are five Tuesdays). Sounds like we’re doing around 52 nights of training a year, and you’re doing about 24.
    But you do have us beat on beer-drinking nights per month!
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.”
    --General James Mattis, USMC


  10. #210
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    Just another Scenario for you guy's to chew on,

    take your average person, give them 1 beer, and then take your Firefighter who has been asleep for say any where between 3-5 hours and run them both through the paces of a drill I think you will find the results the same, the beer affecting your judgment or the fact that you just woke up, and not thinking clearly, judgment was impaired, ya know next time the pager goes off at 2 or 3 in the morning if my judgment is impaired because of lack of sleep maybe I will just skip the call, how about we all due that if were not up to our A-game, for the day,

    Granted when you've drank to much or are sick "only you know that" and can only bring your D 0r F-game you better stay home because your not gonna due the people in need or your department any good, but Being a Firefighter mean's you are suppose to try and help those you are in need without putting yourself or them in more danger than necessary, and if People would schedule there problems We as a fire department would make sure to have a crew ready to respond at that time, with there A-game,

    The thing is in the Volunteer's of the smaller towns you don't know what, when, where, who, is going to happen or show up for a call, you have to make decision's about getting on a truck if you have had a drink, and for those of you to say don't drink, then, Yea fine, OK but part of life is enjoying thing's while you are still alive, and then it's the Get guy's who want to be on the fire department without the booze, it's not that simple in everytown USA, it takes time train & drill, and most of that time comes at the expense of your family, and it is not like the average Joe wants to make that run in to a burning building to begin with,

  11. #211
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    Just wondering, do you have monthly meetings too?

    52 weeks a year, 3 hours a week, best case you are getting 156 hours of training per year. That is wonderful, but in My Humble Opinion, that isn't enough to qualify as professional. Use a 40 hour work week, 4 weeks per month, and you get 160 hours per week. Most professionals put in more than the miniium 40 hour work week. It is more like 50 or 60. However, it takes the volunteer 12 months to do what the paid guy does in 1 month.

    Now we all know practice makes perfect. Doesn't it stand to reason that those with more practice will be much better at the task at hand?
    “I would dare to say that there is not a volunteer department around where all members are proficient at every aspect of the job.” Come on down Tuesday and we’ll show you one.
    You must have a very low bar for proficiency

    “So based on this a 250 pound male should be able to drink 2 drinks in an hour and still be able to perform.”
    That should sound really good in court, especially to the family whose house burned down!
    Sonds a hell of a lot better than saying, gee I've got the training and equipment to help you, but I have had a beer and can't, so Iguess your house will just have to burn down. Sorry.

  12. #212
    Protective Economist Jonathan Bastian's Avatar
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    Originally posted by cdevoe
    Just wondering, do you have monthly meetings too?

    52 weeks a year, 3 hours a week, best case you are getting 156 hours of training per year. That is wonderful, but in My Humble Opinion, that isn't enough to qualify as professional. Use a 40 hour work week, 4 weeks per month, and you get 160 hours per week. Most professionals put in more than the miniium 40 hour work week. It is more like 50 or 60. However, it takes the volunteer 12 months to do what the paid guy does in 1 month.

    Sonds a hell of a lot better than saying, gee I've got the training and equipment to help you, but I have had a beer and can't, so Iguess your house will just have to burn down. Sorry.
    Your math is off. Even if a career FF works a 52 hour week, he is not training that full time. If a career guy averages 100 work days a year (24/48, minus Kelly and vacation), and 4 hours of training a day, that's 400 hours a year. Still above most VFD's, but the ratio is closer to 3:1 rather than 12:1.

    You know what sounds better? Maybe, just MAYBE, a few guys could choose NOT TO DRINK, and then be available for all the calls that night. The next night, it is someone else's turn to stay COMPLETELY SOBER, so the first crew can go get drunk. It's not hard if you really try it. And yes, it DOES work for VFD's.

  13. #213
    Forum Member EastKyFF's Avatar
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    Default He keeps throwin' 'em, I keep hittin' 'em back

    "Now we all know practice makes perfect. Doesn't it stand to reason that those with more practice will be much better at the task at hand?"
    Yes, and that is why we train twice as much as you do. Duh.

    "You must have a very low bar for proficiency."
    Well, if our new program of using the IFSAC FF I & II standards is low, I guess so. (Note to self: Wasted argument; he has no idea what you are talking about. Edited statement follows.) I repeat, hide and watch.

    "Sonds a hell of a lot better than saying, gee I've got the training and equipment to help you, but I have had a beer and can't, so Iguess your house will just have to burn down. Sorry."
    These are not the only two choices. Try Option 3, Ensuring You Have A Minimum Number Of Sober Personnel. Once again you rationalize your poor standards by saying they're better than nothing.
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.”
    --General James Mattis, USMC


  14. #214
    Forum Member Firegod343's Avatar
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    Cool There are volunteer firefighters........

    and then there are guys like cdevoe...the anti-firefighter. cdevoe, you are so devoid of true knowledge of what it takes to be a firefighter, it scares me to think you may have followers in that little hole you call Mayfield. In our area you are known as a "Gaiper", one of those guys who would walk around town all the time with your uniform on, hoping people would look at you with respect and admiration. Well I hope you get it there, cuz' your peers in the fire service know you for what you are, and you won't get it from them.

    This is a serious job, whether you are volunteer or career. People with your attitude demean those individuals who know what they are getting into, and perform as expected. Your department should have drill at least once a week. Quit using your "meetings" as an excuse not to drill. Start having a Saturday drill once a month. Many of my volunteers work a full-time job and have over 200 hours of training in a year. Stop using the excuse "we're only volunteers"...you're firefighters....start acting like one.

    FG
    Last edited by Firegod343; 11-25-2002 at 05:04 PM.
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  15. #215
    Senior Member dmsmith's Avatar
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    I guess it comes down to my standards of professionalism
    "You guys simply don't get it."
    I don't pretend to be a professional
    No sir, I admit that I am an amateur


    Can anyone tell me where Louie Spicolli is? Homer and I want to do some bongs before we get to the nuclear plant.



    "Just when I've thought you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talking."
    (Thanks EastKyFF, that pretty much sums it up)

    In the days of Mongo, he would have shredded your statements on many fronts.
    Mongeaux....I think that's your cue
    Last edited by dmsmith; 11-25-2002 at 05:54 PM.
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    wow...I don't read for one weekend and I fall 4 full pages of posts behind...I didn't read them all..but I did see some that interested me..especially by firemanjb right after my last post...

    First of all...I am in NO WAY saying that alcohol is a 100% good thing in the station..and you seem to have misinterpreted my comments to make it appear as though I am pro having a drink while in the engine bay...I clearly said that is a bad thing...

    To be completely honest..if all the alcohol was banned from the station I couldn't care less(mainly because I'm under 21)... but the fact of the matter is that as long as your members can control themselves...I see no reason why sitting down in the bar/kitchen/wherever(not out in open) and having a beer is any problem. Some stations like to put on banquets/shows/events that are well attended by the public...serving them alcohol can be a good money maker for the dept. why should anyone say that they can't continue to make money that way when it's hard enough to get money from the govt for newer, safer equipment?

    In summary..I'm in no way saying that alcohol at the station doesn't have its downfalls..in a perfect world, there would be no alcohol at fire stations, but then again, in a perfect world there wouldn't be any fires or car crashes...

  17. #217
    MembersZone Subscriber ChiefReason's Avatar
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    Default Did you know that.....

    What I find interesting is that there has been more discussion on this topic about beer than there has been on the two Osceola County training deaths.
    What's wrong with this picture?
    I've spent enough time here; time to move on.

  18. #218
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    Hay guyzzes i has hab 2 bers andIzz waitin fura cawll......................... .............................. .............................. ............leeets gooooo!
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  19. #219
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    I'm with the chief on this one... let's move on please... there have been alot of wasted key strokes on this guy and topic.
    Last edited by Ltmdepas3280; 11-25-2002 at 11:36 PM.
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    Originally posted by ChiefReason:

    What I find interesting is that there has been more discussion on this topic about beer than there has been on the two Osceola County training deaths.
    Chief, I have a theory on that:

    It seems to me that the same line of thought that is shared by cdevoe, stingray, sublime-- and countless others who have had the brains not to use their dept's as examples here-- is not all that far afield from that shared by Jeff Coome in PA, or the trainers in Oceola.

    Further than that, I submit that the mentality at work here is on par with Allen Baird; specifically, the "close enough is good enough," "I'm am amatuer," "I don't have the time to train as much as the full-timers or guys with part time jobs."

    Why then, is so much more energy being spent here than the other thread, as you suggest? Because Dallas Begg, John Mickel, Andrew Waybright, and Bradley Golden are gone. And there is nothing any of us can do about it.

    Except one thing: DO EVERYTHING WE CAN TO PREVENT IT FROM HAPPENING AGAIN.

    So we all try to convince devoe and the others how dangerous their thinking is.

    As EastKyFF says, we are George Bush: "We will not stumble; we will not tire; and we will not fail."

    And that's why this stupid post will never end. Because numbskulls like this are in this service.

    And they are killing us.

    And they are killing us.

    And they are killing us.
    Omnis Cedo Domus

    www.hinckleyfd.org

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