Why register? ...To Enhance Your Experience
+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 19 of 19
  1. #1
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Schenevus, New York
    Posts
    22

    Default saberjet results in

    we ran 6 live fire evolutions each had 3 pallets and 5-8 1x6x5ft planks and appox 50lbs of shredded paper.Atfirst the saberjet was a little hard to get used to with the handle for the sb and the twist for the ss to fog pattern. with 200 ft of 1 3/4 hose and a 15/16 tip we ran dp 140-160psi no kink problems and easliy moved up stairs with 2 ff the rf was easily handled by even one ff. It was nice to have the sb to put the fire out and then go to the window and use the fog to vent. We will be doing some more test with this nozzle including
    foam ops so far looks good. stay low


  2. #2
    EuroFirefighter Batt18's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    509

    Default

    1. What were you flowing (gpm)?

    2. How many turns of the bumper to achieve a wide fog pattern? This may be an essential feature in choosing a nozzle - I know our nozzles can achieve this in less than one full turn - instant protection for the operator.

  3. #3
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Schenevus, New York
    Posts
    22

    Default

    I have to say we did not use a flow meter, but the 15/16 tip with 50psi at the tip flows appox 185 gpm
    we had 200 ft of 1 3/4
    fl for 175 gpm is 47 per 100 ft this works out to 144 psi to overcome the fl and give the proper tp.
    the saberjet takes just about 1 full turn to go from ss to a full fog.
    stay low

  4. #4
    EuroFirefighter Batt18's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    509

    Default

    So your flows were well below 175gpm.......? I have used Akrons before and I love the nozzles. However, one of my biggest problems with them was that they take in excess of two turns of the bumper end to reach wide fog from ss - but you say this is not so with the Sabrejet? In contrast - all TFT nozzles can reach that wide pattern with less than a turn....extremely rapid.

  5. #5
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Schenevus, New York
    Posts
    22

    Default

    looking at the frictin loss and flow charts
    15/16 nozzle at 45psi flows 175 gpm
    there for 140 dp would give a tp of 46 psi
    I stand corrected it does take about 2 turns of the nozzle to go form ss to full fog. stay safe

  6. #6
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    9,844

    Default

    We played with the saberjet here. I think if you view it as a smoothbore for fire attack and a fog for venting or wetting down after the fire is out, it can be a valuable tool.

    Batt18...Fog offers protection? Why do we still say that? If you use a fog stream in a room you are in that is superheated you will steam yourself. Fog offering protection in interior fire attack is an idea we have to quit passing along, it is no magical curtain that stops heat in that environment. Unless the fog stream is putting out enough gpms to extinguish the fire your water is doing nothing more than turning to steam and just making it hotter where you are.

    With a smoothbore or even a combo nozzle on straight stream you can hit the fire from a safer distance and not have to subject your self to the superheated room. Of course using a smoothbore or straight stream is no guarantee you will never be in a superheated area. But again enough water to extinguish the fire is the answer. Not injecting water fog into a superheated atmsophere that turns to steam and drops the thermal imbalance down from the ceiling on you.

    Combo nozzles have there place in fire attack....fog as protection is not one of them.

    FyredUp

  7. #7
    Disillusioned Subscriber Steamer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,475

    Default

    originally posted by FyredUp: Combo nozzles have there place in fire attack....fog as protection is not one of them.
    Not entirely true FyredUp. While I agree that fog has at best "limited" value in what we know as a compartment fire, that protection can be substantial when used to advance a crew to shut of a valve near a pressure relief valve for example. I routinely walk crews to within a couple of feet of a burning propane prop to simulate the approach to shut off a valve to stop the flow of burning product. I don't think that Batt18 necessarily meant in regards to an occupied compartment fire.

    Last edited by Steamer; 11-16-2002 at 12:53 AM.
    Steve Gallagher
    IACOJ BOT
    ----------------------------
    "I don't apologize for anything. When I make a mistake, I take the blame and go on from there." - Woody Hayes

  8. #8
    Senior Member Temptaker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    WA
    Posts
    942

    Default

    FyredUp

    I believe that Batt18 is talking about pulsing, which if administered correctly will result in the temperature of the room being lowered, and the smoke level rising off the floor WITHOUT upsetting the thermal layers.

    No one gets steamed, you get to the seat of the fire more safely, and any victims have a better chance of surviving because the breathable air actually increases.

    You can read about it on www.firetactics.com look for either pulsing or gas cooling.

  9. #9
    EuroFirefighter Batt18's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    509

    Default

    Fyred Up - I most certainly DO think that such a strategy is worth passing on! and yes.....I am talking about 'occupied' compartment fires....and 'no' Temptaker, on this occasion I am not talking about 'pulsing' applications of the fog - although you are right to raise this point.

    Steamer is spot on with that example and the picture says it all - however - I am taking the same principles into a fire where exterior wind suddenly 'pops' the windows and comes 'howling' at ya! We've had it a couple of times in high-rise situations but this phenomena is not restricted to tall structures.

    The single rotation of a TFT bumper gives you instant protection but we found the two or more turns from an Akron (and many other nozzles) takes that second or two longer where you are overcome by the excessive pressure created by the wind.

    I am not saying this technique will save your bacon in every instance because wind and venturi effects play havoc with the heat from the fire - however, it worked for us on two occasions - allowing the nozzle crew to back-out of the compartment under some element of control. I have to say we were very happy to have TFTs on those occasions!

  10. #10
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    9,844

    Default

    Okay one at a time:

    Batt 18: 2. How many turns of the bumper to achieve a wide fog pattern? This may be an essential feature in choosing a nozzle - I know our nozzles can achieve this in less than one full turn - instant protection for the operator.

    Now to all of you this is not pulsing and this is not protecting yourself advancing on a gas fire. This is the same old wide fog interior compartmented steam producing fallacy of protection.

    Temptaker: I believe that Batt18 is talking about pulsing, which if administered correctly will result in the temperature of the room being lowered, and the smoke level rising off the floor WITHOUT upsetting the thermal layers.

    No one gets steamed, you get to the seat of the fire more safely, and any victims have a better chance of surviving because the breathable air actually increases.

    You know I had pulsing in my original post but eliminated it before posting. I read and reread Batt 18's post and knew that was not pulsing. Which by the way works, and can be done with a smoothbore nozzle as well.

    Steamer: Not entirely true FyredUp. While I agree that fog has at best "limited" value in what we know as a compartment fire, that protection can be substantial when used to advance a crew to shut of a valve near a pressure relief valve for example. I routinely walk crews to within a couple of feet of a burning propane prop to simulate the approach to shut off a valve to stop the flow of burning product. I don't think that Batt18 necessarily meant in regards to an occupied compartment fire.

    I also had this in my original post but edited it out. I thought this was pretty clearly a post on interior firefighting. Guess I was wrong.

    Batt18: Tell me you aren't using automatic nozzles in high rise fire situations.

    Take care and stay sfae everyone,

    FyredUp

  11. #11
    EuroFirefighter Batt18's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    509

    Default

    Fyred Up states -

    'This is the same old wide fog interior compartmented steam producing fallacy of protection.....'

    Steamer is right to quote the example of how a wide protective fog can 'push' fire and heat away from the operator. This is not an 'indirect' application of fog to create steam but another technique. A method that is also widely used by the Navy to ptotect nozzle operators -- a 'waterwall'. If it didn't work the Navy would not have been using this method as a means of protection for so many years! If the flow and pressure are adequate it CAN overcome some situations - not all.

    'and knew that was not pulsing. Which by the way works, and can be done with a smoothbore nozzle as well.....'

    You are correct that pulsing can be applied with a smooth-bore nozzle - I have heard that even users of Vindicator have had good effects with pulsing their streams. However - then compare the pulsing smooth-bore stream with that of a pulsing fog pattern to cool gases in the overhead - there is no equal to the effects of the pulsed fog - beyond doubt.

    Autos in high-rise? That's another topic but at that time - YES! At the height we were working they were (fortunately) effective. However, not all TFTs are Autos........yet they still maintain the single turn on the bumper which is unique (in my experience) to that particular make of nozzle. When a firefighter needs to make an INSTANT adjustment to protect him/herself then the TFT is the choice for me - in this situation.

  12. #12
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    9,844

    Default

    Batt18...

    Brother I don't want to fight with you...so, I'll just say we have to agree to disagree on this one.

    As a side note....I was a civilian firefighter for the Air National Guard for 7 years. To use a blanket statement that because a branch of the military's fire service does something is justification for it is...well another story.

    take care and stay safe,

    FyredUp

  13. #13
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Posts
    868

    Default

    While we are on this topic does anyone know anything about a TFT Auto that is designed to run off a lower branch/line pressure than normal?
    Busy polishing the stacked tips on the deckgun of I.A.C.O.J. Engine#1

    ...and before you ask - YES I have done a Bloody SEARCH!

  14. #14
    EuroFirefighter Batt18's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    509

    Thumbs up

    Fyred Up - no fight here brother - I ALWAYS enjoy and respect your debate. We all have our own views based on each individual's experience. I accept - we agree to disagree on this one

    stillPSFB - The TFT Midforce/Dualforce nozzles run off two nozzle pressures by adjustment at the tip - 100psi or a factory-set lower pressure where supply pressure falters.

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    ST.PETERSBURG,FL,USA
    Posts
    202

    Default

    Sorry, I've got to jump in here. A couple of questions, did you try the 7/8 tip as suggested? or just the 15/16. Did you also try the experiment with the TFT? (thereby swearing off automatic nozzles for life).I agree that generally speaking a fog won't protect you in a compartment fire, it will burn you. I also know what Grimwwod says and under certain conditions 3d fog attack and pulsing the nozzle can work to prevent flashover. I also feel that those are under specific conditions, and with very well trained personnel that have used those procedures prior,and, under like conditions. Not every compartment fire is like the last one except maybe aboard a ship or some similar construction, furthermore, where we would all probably like to think that all of our depts are extremely well trained, we're not (for a multitude of reasons). Which means I'll be hanging on to my smooth bore, and if I need to manage the atmosphere I'll break it up on the ceiling or a corner. Lastly, why is it that everybody thinks that you need a fog to nozzle vent? Just take the tip off of the bale and open it 1/2 way, it makes a passable 30degree fog that you can use to move smoke.
    Paul Grimwood, is that you on laptop, or some wannabe?
    Our burn building uses a set fire not gas unfortunately, we're not that hi-tech yet.
    Last edited by BLACKSHEEP1; 11-18-2002 at 02:02 PM.

  16. #16
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Schenevus, New York
    Posts
    22

    Default

    blacksheep we used the 15/16 tip since it was the one avail for demo. printed out your test and will try as soon as it stops snowing also thanks for the in on venting with the sb stay low

  17. #17
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Posts
    868

    Default

    Originally posted by Batt18
    stillPSFB - The TFT Midforce/Dualforce nozzles run off two nozzle pressures by adjustment at the tip - 100psi or a factory-set lower pressure where supply pressure falters.
    Thanks for the reply Paul, I'm not 100% sure whether these are the nozzles that I have seen or not, as I don't remember them having adjustable nozzle pressure. I remember that the nozzle did have an adjustable pattern, and did have dial up flow on a selector ring behind the bumper.

    I'm hoping these may help solve a problem here, we have some modern five-story apartment buildings that don't have standpipes fitted (or any other form of firefighting equipment), and so by the time we take into account friction loss through hose (4 lengths of 2.5" wyed into 2 lengths of 1.5"), and loss due to head height, to get 700kpa at the branch for our regular TFT's for a fire in the top story, we easily exceed the service pressure of our hoses Because of this, at present we are limited to using plastic grass fire nozzles for these situations, which is less than desirable! Given the strength of their construction, including having high strength windows fitted, it is unlikely that a fire will have vented itself to the outside before we arrive, and given that outside venting isn't an option for us at these heights, I'd much prefer a nozzle in my hands that I can easily pulse with to cool gases as we are making entry to the fire compartment.
    Last edited by stillPSFB; 11-18-2002 at 11:35 PM.
    Busy polishing the stacked tips on the deckgun of I.A.C.O.J. Engine#1

    ...and before you ask - YES I have done a Bloody SEARCH!

  18. #18
    EuroFirefighter Batt18's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    509

    Default

    stillPSFB - If the TFT you have seen has a flow selector then its not an 'auto' but more probably an adjustable gallonage nozzle - TFT Quadrafog perhaps? These will provide greater flows at very low nozzle pressures. Their METRO nozzle provides another option where flows and NP can be selected & pre-set at the factory - as low as 50 psi (350kpa?) I believe.

    Blacksheep - Yeah its me bro! WHO would wanna be MY wannabe - I ain't no Elvis Long story on the nic - occurred when trying to register for Memberzone via my laptop (had forgotten my password)!

    BTW....share the 'experiment' with us all bro

  19. #19
    Forum Member Fire304's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    At the Helm
    Posts
    1,174

    Default

    Originally posted by stillPSFB I don't remember them having adjustable nozzle pressure. I remember that the nozzle did have an adjustable pattern, and did have dial up flow on a selector ring behind the bumper.
    The tip you are talking about is TFT's selectable nozzles such as the "Thunderfog". These nozzles do not have TFT's sliding valve, they have a regular ball valve.

    TFT Also makes a line of "DUAL-FORCE" nozzles which are true automatic fog nozzles, but have a selector in the cone of the tip which allows them to run at normal 100psi or a "low pressure" mode. We have one of these on our Blitzfire nozzle and have tested it. With 20psi in low pressure mode we got the same reach as with 100 in normal mode, but less water.

    See for more info...
    http://www.tft.com/products/productd....asp?catalog=2

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts