Why register? ...To Enhance Your Experience
+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 20 of 20
  1. #1
    IACOJ Agitator Adze39's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    In a van down by the CT River!
    Posts
    2,771

    Question Do your OLDER members listen to your YOUNGER members?

    Ok, here's a slightly different take then the usual younger listening to older stuff.

    Do your older members listen to your younger (but still experienced) members?

    I'm not talking about a 20 year vet listening to a probie or a junior. I'm talking about a 20+ year vet listening to someone in the 5-15 year range.

    Many of the newer members have taken classes more recently than your older members or some of your older members might not have ever taken a class. Following this philosophy, your younger members might be educated and have hands on experience in either new techniques or different techniques. When younger members try to educate the rest of the department or at least demonstrate to the rest of the department, do they run into road block by the older members who say stuff like "20 years ago we didn't have this and we don't need it now" or "this is the way we've done it since before I joined so why change and it works for us so why change?".

    I'm not running into a problem with this particular situation just thought I'd change the usual question up a bit.

    The only problems I run into are usually with what I'll call the "mid-range" guys...5-15(or 20) years on the job. They just tend to stay closed minded about things. The type of people who will pull a 1.75" line when a 2.5" should be pulled and when asked say "well, that's what we always pull".

    Just so those mid-range or older guys don't start jumping on me, I'm approaching my 11th year.
    Last edited by Adze39; 11-18-2002 at 04:35 PM.
    IACOJ Agitator
    Fightin' Da Man Since '78!


  2. #2
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Walton County Georgia
    Posts
    120

    Default Interesting...

    Now this is interesting...a twist from the usual anyways. We have some members that have been on for forever...and have said that they were not willing to go to any classes or advanced training, and are just general sticks in the mud. After several of our firefighters went through the firefighter I certification (we are only volunteer) when they brought back their better ideas (minute-man load, and other skills done differently that usuall) some of the older ones were resistive to this. So I would say that No, they do not listen on average, but the real good firefighter will because they know that they are imperfect and could use good ideas from anybody, regardless of time on the department.

  3. #3
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Maryland,USA
    Posts
    38

    Angry

    H**L NO!!!!!! Some of them wouldn't listen to us if we're the last people on earth.The only time you see them is on the bad calls. They're whispering in there little groups.They say we didn't do it like that or why do you wear all that stuff we didn't when we were young.And when it's time to buy new equipement they gathier all the old timers and vote it down.I guess someone will be saying the samething when I get old.




    FTM-PTB-EGH-KTF-RFB
    LEATHER FOREVER

  4. #4
    IACOJ Agitator Adze39's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    In a van down by the CT River!
    Posts
    2,771

    Default Re: Interesting...

    Originally posted by KParker
    After several of our firefighters went through the firefighter I certification
    In the early 80's, most (if not all) of our members became FF1 certified. Unforunately, that was the last time most of them took a class. Since the early 90's, FF1 has been required. So the problem with many of older members is not lack of training but that they were trained "old school". For example, when many of our older members took FF1 they went into the burnhouse without airpacks (even though we had them at the station) because the "smoke eater" instructors wouldn't let them use packs. The above example used was not to say that our members don't realize the value of an airpack but to demonstrate the difference in training.
    IACOJ Agitator
    Fightin' Da Man Since '78!

  5. #5
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    London
    Posts
    60

    Thumbs up Yep!!!

    In th UK...we seem to be going though an era of new recruit, coming out of training school/Acadamy with the attitude that " You can't tell me what to do"

    As a 20 year firefighter...it ****es me off that, there are guys and girls that want to be firefighters but only under certain conditions.

    Surely it's a "WAY OF LIFE" not just a job...

    Just an ole git ranting on........

    Stay safe

    Sub16green
    Go In Together - Stay Together -Come Out Together.

  6. #6
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Nevada, Missouri
    Posts
    55

    Default

    I applaud the veteran Firefighters who listen to the younger crowd. Times are certainly different. RIC, CAFS, and IMS are things probably not even dreamed of not to long ago. Recruits fresh out of the academy or even new volunteers may bring something to the department that had never before been considered such as the RIC concept or PPV. Everyone, recruits and veteran alike need to keep an open mind towards new concepts, tactics, and ideas. Thats all its takes...keep an open mind...and dont rule out anything until you have researched and evaluated it fully. Have fun and be safe.
    Gabriel
    FF/EMT
    Nevada, Missouri
    1*

  7. #7
    MembersZone Subscriber Fannin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Myrtle Beach SC
    Posts
    39

    Default Same problem across america

    "And when it's time to buy new equipement they gathier all the old timers and vote it down.I guess someone will be saying the samething when I get old. "



    We have the same problem. Everytime the younger/mid guys want to spend money to upgrade something they (older guys) vote it down. Who else around still uses steel cylinders? On our first out trucks in the pack are Hoop/Alum. Cylinders, we have close to 36 cylinders in all Half or more are steel. The remaining are Alum. So when you come out for your second cyl. it is probably going to be a steel. So at the last meeting we brought up the idea of working into our budget buying 4 stealth cylinders each time we get a draw. Soon as it was brought up the older guys (25+ years) said why should we purchase new light weight cylinders when the steel one's are still passing hydro? 30 years ago we didnt have the option for lightweight cylinders so why do you young guys need them? We have about a $300,000 a year buget so spending $5,000 once or twice a year wouldnt break us. It's just that the older guys dont see any use in it. But most of them haven't masked up more than once in the last 5-10 years so they dont understand. I guess in 30 years I'll be saying the same thing. This is the same problems when it comes to radios. We are the only dept. in the county still in Lo-Band, everyone else is on UHF, the chief (30+ years) got mad the other day while pulling out of the station because he couldnt hear the other trucks less than a mile away maybe the older guys will let us pass a vote on new radios.

  8. #8
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Posts
    277

    Default

    I was faced with this issue when I started with the Fire Dept. Prior to joining the Dept. I had spent a few years as an industrial firefighter and two years teaching rope rescue and confined space rescue. My first station was the high angle rescue station and the systems being used at that time were archaic and dangerous to say the least. Rather than start shooting my mouth off, I kept my mouth shut and my eyes and ears open. The guys at the station learned about my previous experience and in time they began to ask me for advice. This was the only time I would speak up and it made a huge difference in the reception from the older firefighters. As Sub16Green said, too many people come on the department with a wealth of knowledge and just end up irritating the older guys with arrogance. The older firefighters in general are quite receptive to the younger guys as long as there is a mutual respect. FYI, I have since gone on to rewrite the rope rescue procedures for the department.

  9. #9
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    52

    Default well?... lol

    Nice question Adze39 as you know this fits my catagory.
    Many of the newer members have taken classes more recently than your older members or some of your older members might not have ever taken a class.
    This fits my situation, I for one have taken FF1 & FF2 , Hazmat, Fire Officer 1,2 & 3, Jaws / Agricultural, Vehicle, & Air Craft, State certified classes. I hold a Medical First Responder licence and many other certs to list.. although I have only been a fireman for 9 years I find that alot of our older members only have FF1 and Fire Officer 1. Our chief and a couple others are the old dogs that have been doing it that way for years and its worked so thats the way were gonna do it attitude. I settle for that at the time, but after the proper channels and the correct times introduce the new stuff. My main philosophy is FIREFIGHTING IS A NEVER ENDING LEARNING PROCESS, once you close you mind and say i know all.. you are mistaken and thats what prevents people from putting out 110%
    There's an old saying around the firehouse."You
    don't have to watch your back, because you know someone else is watching it for you"

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Northern IL
    Posts
    189

    Default

    Knowledge comes in all forms. You can learn a lot by listening to people... both young and old. I've been working with automotive electronics for about 8-years now, and I've gotten new ideas from people casually walking by. By the same note, I've shown my lead mechanic at work a few things as well. I never hurts to have another perspective on things, whether right or wrong... you never know when it may help.

  11. #11
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Bristol,Pa
    Posts
    45

    Default

    Most time there is no problems. Once in a while one of the older members will not listen to the younger member. It more of a age factor in my Dept. The Chief is 31, Assistant Chief is 28 so somethings must be explain to them a few times. But for the most part we work together well.

  12. #12
    Permanently Removed CALFFBOU's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    CA
    Posts
    6,520

    Default Good job Adze

    I love this subject because I am in the boat. I think a
    senior dog should listen to a semi-seasoned person. Face
    it, the sauly dudes get in their comfort mode and only
    know that way and resist change because of the comfort
    factor. I see it all the time here.

    Lastly, the saulty dogs, including me need to keep the
    ego in check. Set the thing aside and you might learn
    something. Like Bruno (Phoenix) says- "Egos eat brains."

  13. #13
    MembersZone Subscriber E229Lt's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Posts
    2,987

    Default

    Ya gotta hear all sides. Problem is, most schooled firefighters are getting broad based ideas and tactics. These don't always apply to a given area.
    Yes the old farts should listen, then apply the new found information to their area. The middle of the road firefighter must not take his new found knowledge as gospel, but take it as a basic idea to be applied as needed.

    Most older firefighters resist change due to the fact they have survived many years under a given way. A burning building is no place to start trying "new things".

    The service has evolved over the years, but the change has to be slow and deliberate.

  14. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    SF CA
    Posts
    122

    Default

    NO

  15. #15
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,645

    Default

    I'm talking about a 20+ year vet listening to someone in the 5-15 year range.
    I'm one of those 20+ "old" guys (hate to think of myself that way) and still very active. Do I go to classes still? Yup. Been to some classes that the "kids" think is a waste of time. Never found a class that was a waste, there is always something to learn. Guess I don't know as much as them, yet. Do I listen to their thoughts on tactics and such, yes, but as E229LT said, it needs to be applied to your area. We have, in the last few years, been receiving lots of training from some FDNY guys. It has been very good training and we look forward to more of it. But, the first thing they always say is, it works for us in NY, that don't mean it's gonna work for you in NJ. Problem is, the younger guys take it to heart and since FDNY does it, we need to. Don't have a single standpipe in town, only building higher than 3 floors is high school (which is 5 but really a 3 floor splitlevel), but we have about 7 high rise packs just in case. You never know when they are going to put a high rise up overnight! Still, you have to love the enthusiasm, and encourage them to continue training and learning, but reminders that it has to make sense for our area are common. We were all young once and we turned out pretty well, help the young un's grow.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  16. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    145

    Default

    .
    Last edited by fireflyer; 07-01-2003 at 12:49 AM.

  17. #17
    Permanently Removed CALFFBOU's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    CA
    Posts
    6,520

    Default Got to respond to that....

    Originally posted by fireflyer
    100 years of tradition unimpeded by progress.
    Anyone who uses that line is just kidding themselves.
    They are using that as a cruth and a cover up just to
    not try something new and stay in the old groove.

    I admit I am like that sometimes. You get used to
    something,(I am not sure about this WIndows XP yet)
    good at it and build confidence. Then someone wants
    to "move your chesse" and you just plain dont like it.

    Well too bad. Times change. If not, you wouldnt even
    be reading this note on a computer. You would still be
    in grade school, still own the same house or car, etc...

    Sure you/we/me dont have to change everything,
    every week. But The fire service is dangerous and we
    need to have forward looking vision. What works better?
    If it does, look at it. I always believe in respecting
    tradition, just not letting it dicate your operations.

    (Damn, that posting was suppose to be short)

  18. #18
    Forum Member MOTOWN88's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    DETROIT
    Posts
    415

    Default

    Oh you mean draw from all of that hardcore classroom knowledge, what was read in a book, and taught by an instructor who we have clue about his background.......oh yeah we listen to our younger members all the time.....NOT.

    I will take my experience and the experience of the crusties I am around and put it up against a book or class anytime.
    I.A.C.O.J IRISH TATTOOED-HOOLIGAN

    DETROIT FIRE FIGHTER AND PROUD!

  19. #19
    IACOJ Agitator Adze39's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    In a van down by the CT River!
    Posts
    2,771

    Default

    Originally posted by MOTOWN88
    Oh you mean draw from all of that hardcore classroom knowledge, what was read in a book, and taught by an instructor who we have clue about his background.......oh yeah we listen to our younger members all the time.....NOT.

    I will take my experience and the experience of the crusties I am around and put it up against a book or class anytime.
    I'm not talking about "oh I read this in a book so let's do it". I'm talking about things people have done first hand whether in a class or on the fireground.

    Or even following the book thing, someone could be like "I read about a new technique, let's try it out" (at a training session hopefully) I'm not talking about "I read this, so let's just go ahead and switch the way we do things". That doesn't fly with anyone (except the book people).
    IACOJ Agitator
    Fightin' Da Man Since '78!

  20. #20
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Penna
    Posts
    7

    Default Good Topic

    I am one of those older members, (28 years in the Volunteer Service to be exact) and as each day goes buy I see situations caused by age difference and it should not be that way.

    I have certifications, 2 degrees, one in Fire Science Technical, but this does not mean I am better then anyone else, I just have been doing this a lot longer then the younger members and chose to become more educated. Lively Hood

    I always remember a Chief from a PG County Maryland FD telling me ?Just because you have a divers license does not mean you are a good driver?. The same goes with the Fire Service.

    That?s where some of the problems lay. Some members have an attitude that if they go to school and obtain all types of training, they become more qualified then others. Maybe on paper, but in the fire service, you need to have an understanding of what the fire service is all about, plus the common sense level that a lot of people lack, and a true level of respect for those around you. I am always willing to learn something new every day, but I always know there are two ways to skin the cat.

    Maybe we need to do a better job of teaching this to new members when they join our departments and maybe this topic becomes a mute point.

    It only takes a split second for someone to think they know it all and be carried out in a stretcher.

    Maybe the leadership of some departments need to start with themselves first and then lead by example.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts