Why register? ...To Enhance Your Experience
+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 33

Thread: Tim Lee

  1. #1
    Senior Member Smoke286's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    St John's, Newfoundland , Canada
    Posts
    310

    Default Tim Lee

    Is any one familiar with the Tim Lee incident? What do you think of it?


  2. #2
    Forum Member DrInferno's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    77

    Default

    Smoke: I don't think it's over yet. From the rumours around our station he has 2 weeks to quit his volunteering or he is terminated from the W.F.D. So I imagine the final results won't be in for a couple of days yet. It will be interesting to see what happens in the next while in Ontario in the fire service. I have heard that if Bill 30 does not pass then there will be movement on the Unions part to eliminate 2 hatting across the board.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Smoke286's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    St John's, Newfoundland , Canada
    Posts
    310

    Default

    I understand he was convicted, or whatever the correct term is, and if he doesn't resign from his volunteer dept he will be out of the union, and therefore out of a job. Correct me if I have gotten the wrong info.

  4. #4
    Forum Member DrInferno's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    77

    Default

    That's correct smoke as far as I know. I guess it depends on him whether he thinks being a volunteer is more important than being employed. I think the choice would be an easy one!

  5. #5
    Senior Member Smoke286's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    St John's, Newfoundland , Canada
    Posts
    310

    Default

    You can say that again brother

  6. #6
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Posts
    1,098

    Default

    Go to www.thewatchdesk.com , He has posted updates on his situation there. It is under the Prince Georges County section, "Volunteer/Career Relations" section. Thread title is "IAFF position on 2-hatters."

    Tim Lee is truly a patriot of his cause and it is a shame that a Labor Organization has enough power to actually fire someone for not being a member. Almost like the Communist party in my opinion.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Smoke286's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    St John's, Newfoundland , Canada
    Posts
    310

    Default

    So now if one is a member of a labour organization, you are a communist?
    This gentlemen applied to become a paid professional firefighter. Most paid depts are unionized, most have collective agreements that state that they are a closed shop, meaning one must be a member of the union,in good standing in order to continue in your employment. Mr Lee agreed to this as a condition of employment, he must be prepared to abide by its rules, just as he has to abide by his employers rules. If he does not wish to do so he need only resign from his position, at which time he is free to be a member of any organization he wishes, including the communist party.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Dalmatian90's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2000
    Posts
    3,120

    Default

    Most paid depts are unionized, most have collective agreements that state that they are a closed shop, meaning one must be a member of the union,in good standing in order to continue in your employment.

    In Canada, that may be true.

    In the U.S. closed shops are prohibited, union shops are allowed, but may not bar a worker from employment because he had been denied union
    membership for any reason except non-payment of dues. Those provisions are in the Taft-Hartley act.

    A Closed shop, by definition, requires membership in the Union prior to hiring. A Union shop is one where people are hired first and join the Union after. In general, everday usage people often refer to a Union shop as a "closed shop" but it's not correct language.

    In a situation like Tim Lee's in the U.S., the union might still be the sole-bargaining unit by contract, and they might kick him out of the Union, but then he'd just pay a "bargaining fee" or some similiar term to the local to cover the % of local dues that went towards the costs of collective bargaining.

    In the U.S. if a union wanted to be the sole bargaining unit and require all employees to be union members, then they couldn't deny union membership (and thus employment) except for refusal to pay dues. If they want to enforce clauses like article 15(?) to deny membership for other reasons and still be the sole bargaining agent, then they have to provide provisions to collective bargaining for non-union members.

    I'm sure I'll be corrected if I made a mistake above, but I think that's pretty close to the law and reality.

    Matt

  9. #9
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Posts
    277

    Default

    Here at the other end of Canada, one has the option to be part of the union. You will not lose your job for refusing membership. Infact, when you first join the department, you are on probation for one year and after that year you may obtain membership if youwish. Nobody has ever refused from what I understand.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Smoke286's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    St John's, Newfoundland , Canada
    Posts
    310

    Default

    Originally posted by Dalmatian90
    Most paid depts are unionized, most have collective agreements that state that they are a closed shop, meaning one must be a member of the union,in good standing in order to continue in your employment.

    In Canada, that may be true.

    In the U.S. closed shops are prohibited, union shops are allowed, but may not bar a worker from employment because he had been denied union
    membership for any reason except non-payment of dues. Those provisions are in the Taft-Hartley act.
    Matt
    Boy that sucks

  11. #11
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Posts
    4,713

    Default

    Boy that sucks
    So much for a person's individual right to choose then, huh?

    While I support unions, especially in a municpal setting, it is still one's right to opt not join a union. It is known as freedom of choice.

    I have seen a few notices for firefighter positions in the United States that do state that you must become a member and remain a member in good standing of the local in order to remain employes as a firefighter. I have wondered about the legality of this and figured that the Supreme Court, if it ever got that far, would declare that illegal and unconstitutional in a hearbeat.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

    The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

    "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker

    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

    www.daveramsey.com www.clarkhoward.com www.heritage.org

  12. #12
    Senior Member Smoke286's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    St John's, Newfoundland , Canada
    Posts
    310

    Default

    I Dont agree with you Sharkie,there is no place in a union enviroment for someone who doesn't want to belong to a union.

  13. #13
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Posts
    1,098

    Default

    there is no place in a union enviroment for someone who doesn't want to belong to a union.
    Ok, then maybe union representation should be re-examined in the Fire Service? Last time I checked, Ability, Skill and Knowledge fought fires, not union cards. A Fire Department should for one, not be a union environment and should always have public safety, not union status in the forefront.

    So now if one is a member of a labour organization, you are a communist?
    If the shoe fits. When someone is required to be a member of an organization that may or may not serve the best interest of the employee in order to maintain employment, there is a problem. This is not an issue of him being a volunteer either. It is an issue of personal choice not to join the union. If he chooses not to join the union, it should be his choice and not have a bearing on his employment. The loss of a Firefighter simply due to his affiliation with the IAFF is detrimental to safety and goes against everything career Firefighters in the United States (Who Chartered the IAFF) have fought for since 1918.

  14. #14
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Posts
    1,098

    Default Smoke286 aka One time Poster

    Oh yeah, BTW Smoke, nice little comment you made on the Watchdesk.com forum site. Why not go back and make some more, they are waiting for you....or are you now becoming a One Note Johnny too?

  15. #15
    MembersZone Subscriber Engine5FF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Elmira, NY
    Posts
    456

    Default

    Originally posted by TillerMan25
    Ok, then maybe union representation should be re-examined in the Fire Service? Last time I checked, Ability, Skill and Knowledge fought fires, not union cards. A Fire Department should for one, not be a union environment and should always have public safety, not union status in the forefront.
    But that union card keeps departments properly staffed and safely equipped to fight those fires. It keeps my paycheck coming. It keeps my family cared for in the event of my on-duty death. My old volunteer department never did that and couldn't if they wanted to. And my local has a lot more concern about public safety than the city government. We have tried for years to increase our patient care in EMS by going up to ALS but they wont have it. The union had to fight for five years just to get BLS level. Just this month our city wanted another round of lay-offs but they gave the union an opportunity to come up with a solution, and they did. We voted to change our work schedule to reduce over-time and save the city money. Don't go saying that there is no place at all for unions in the fire service because I like my job and I intend to keep it. I wont be "down-sized" like some companies have done without the ability to fight it.
    "What makes a person run into a building others are running out of?...Character."- Dennis Smith

    www.elmirafire.org

  16. #16
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Posts
    1,098

    Default

    Engine5, I am not disagreeing with you at all. I read about your department on the website and I see you are doing the best with what you have. I am just saying that we are lucky here in the United States to have the freedom to choose whether to join or not to join.
    Too bad our neighbors to the North cannot grasp this personal freedom.

    BTW, how do those big Peterbilt engines do in the city? Is the wheelbase terrible or are they easily manueverable?

  17. #17
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Apr 1999
    Location
    Maine
    Posts
    212

    Default

    The union had to fight for five years just to get BLS level. Just this month our city wanted another round of lay-offs but they gave the union an opportunity to come up with a solution, and they did. We voted to change our work schedule to reduce over-time and save the city money. Don't go saying that there is no place at all for unions in the fire service because I like my job and I intend to keep it. I wont be "down-sized" like some companies have done without the ability to fight it.
    Engine 5, what you're describing is the way in which all Unions should operate. It sounds like your Local has it's act together. However, it is possible that the guy on the knob next to you feels differently. While he's proud of the way your Local has handled its responsibilities, he does not want to be forced to be a member.

    Is it right to force him to join in order to keep his job? In the US, our laws say no. Out of fairness, he may have to pay the Local some type of fee for the benefits they have negotiated on his behalf, but actual membership can't be required.
    Remember, it IS as bad as you think and they ARE out to get you!

  18. #18
    Member pgvfd1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Posts
    45

    Default

    But that union card keeps departments properly staffed and safely equipped to fight those fires
    I beg to differ with you Engine. Granted, some union locals will forgo the big pay raise or the increase in bennies for increased staffing and decent equipment.
    But then you have the locals that only worry about how much in pay and benefits they can finagle out of the local government and then after getting them they will bitch and whine about not having enough people to put on the apparatus, when thatís what they should have been negotiating for in the first place.
    You noticed I didnít mention equipment. Thatís because where Iím from the career staff has use of some of the best equipment around, all provided by the volunteers they so much would like to get rid of. They donít have to worry about negotiating getting the ďsafely equippedĒ equipment needed to perform their job, its sitting in the engine room when they arrive for work!

    It keeps my family cared for in the event of my on-duty death. My old volunteer department never did that and couldn't if they wanted to
    If I were to pay the ultimate sacrifice as a volunteer my family will be taken care of very nicely. Not only by the Life Insurance provided me by my employer (which my union helped get for me, god bless em) but by benefits provided me as a volunteer by the local government. Plus, the only firefighter that I know of that is not eligible for the Federal LOD death benefit is a Federal Firefighter, unless thatís changed since I left.

    Iím not here to start no career/vol bs, actually I was just looking for someone I was told I could find here. Just thought Iíd let you know that, that union card does not keep a department properly staffed or safely equipped in every jurisdiction. In some jurisdictions it does just the opposite.

    Is any one familiar with the Tim Lee incident? What do you think of it?
    Smoke, since it's your question what is your answer?

    Peace and Happy Holidays to all!

    One Time Poster, come out come out wherever you are.
    Last edited by pgvfd1; 12-06-2002 at 09:25 AM.
    "When I was a child I spoke as a child, understood as a child, thought as a child, but when I became a man I put away childish things."

  19. #19
    Senior Member Smoke286's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    St John's, Newfoundland , Canada
    Posts
    310

    Default Re: Smoke286 aka One time Poster

    Originally posted by TillerMan25
    Oh yeah, BTW Smoke, nice little comment you made on the Watchdesk.com forum site. Why not go back and make some more, they are waiting for you....or are you now becoming a One Note Johnny too?
    Thats ok Tiller, I have no interest in conversing with those gentlemen, thanks for the link BTW ,it gave me a chance to converse directly with MR Lee, I'm sure its nothing that his former union brothers haven't made clear to him,on many occaisions.

  20. #20
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Jan 1999
    Location
    MA
    Posts
    1,744

    Default

    Is it right to force him to join in order to keep his job? In the US, our laws say no. Out of fairness, he may have to pay the Local some type of fee for the benefits they have negotiated on his behalf, but actual membership can't be required.
    You know what...it may or may not be right, but I'll bet he knew he had to belong to get hired. So he made a choice. No one forced him to become a firefighter. And as far as the "no volunteer rule" most of you have heard my feelings before. Whether you agree with it or not, it is part of the Constitution and Bylaws of the International. Soooo...if you join, and its the rules....you have no bitch. If it is required that you be a member of the Union to keep your job...and its part of the rules to not be a volunteer elsewhere....then you have to make a choice.

    But then you have the locals that only worry about how much in pay and benefits they can finagle out of the local government and then after getting them they will bitch and whine about not having enough people to put on the apparatus, when thatís what they should have been negotiating for in the first place
    OK, so I should forgo a pay raise to work safely? The Real Estate Market in my area has had a price increase of 29% in the last 12 months. Think our pay grew by that much. So what you say? They expect...actually it part of our contract..that we live in Town so we can respond back when needed...kinda hard to do when you can't afford to live there. I should have to give up pay...by the way, a janitor in our middle school makes the same as I do hourly, don't tell me I am overpaid....so that the Town can maintain proper staffing, or move us out of our 80 year old run down station.

    All you non-union guys may think that the world is rosey, but as a Town employee, past Union President, and past negotiator, let me tell you....if it were not for the unions, there would be far less employee rights. Maybe you thinks thats ok...I don't. Also, how many non-union people benefit because of unions. Many pay rates, insurance coverages, time off policies, etc etc etc are established in an organization by the Union, and then other employees reap that benefit.

    This is one issue..I am not trying to minimize it...but all I hear is F the unions because they won't let guys volunteer......that is a pretty narrow point of view.


    Dave

    **** These opinions are mine and mine alone. My spelling sucks..sorry..I am working on it. Punctuation was optional at most of my schools. I am in know way speaking for any department, organization or group that I am affiliated with ****

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts