1. #1
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    Default Criminal Backround

    Ok.. Just a quick post before I ship out. My last day on the job, a gentleman came in and applied for the postion of, CALL FF.

    Okay, NO BIG DEAL, right...

    From what I hear now, the man was declined the postion due to a negtive criminal backround.

    Okay, happens all the time..

    He has no expierence, in the fire services, but has his FF1 and FF2, not sure on hopw he accomplised this but). Evan though he has a criminal backround, why deny a man more than qualified, to do the job, so my parents tax dollars can goto pay another man to go through training, Im not trying to sound like an *******, argg but if the town thinks of there budget and OURS before making a decision****ok,, off the point...

    The question is...

    Why deny a man more than qualified, to do the job
    What you think...

  2. #2
    SFDny15
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    If the department by-laws state that they must deny applicants with criminal records, then they must follow that rule for everybody.

    Say for instance this particular applicant only committed a small, minor crime. Lets say another person applies with an even larger criminal record, although same with the same training resume. Now a third person applies with no training, no experience, and no criminal record.

    The by-lay states that you must hire the third person, personally, I would too. You can't not follow one rule for one person, and follow it for others. This leaves the door open for other members to break other rules, using that situation as a precedent.

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    I understand, totally, what you said. But I think its kinda silly.. I dont know... I think its a by law that should be able to be interp. to the situation at hand.. Just my thoughts...

  4. #4
    SFDny15
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    Well, say for instance you let the guy in. Nobody really makes a big deal and everything is fine. Eventually, somebody is going to be brought up on charges for a say, not making duty requirements. That person who is being brought up is gonna say that this particular person was hired under violations of the by laws; if he is allowed to break the rules, why am I being punished.

    In order to run an efficient department, you need a set of rules for everybody. Not following the rules for certain people is only gonna cause problems down the road. Is absolutely impossible to go case-by-case in situations like this. Especially when dealing with criminal records.

    May seem like a stupid rule, but following that rule is more important than the rule itself.

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    Default Here is your money shot...

    Want to get more information on the background
    process and ways to assit you? I highly, HIGHLY
    suggest you visit www.eatstress.com and click
    on the 101 Secrets to Getting a Badge. This
    FREE site is ran by a Firehouse Magazine writer
    named Capt. Bob.

    You can even phone Bob TOLL-FREE on his 800 number
    and get some FREE insight from him.

    Trust me.

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    Ask the question this way...

    Why should a convicted felon get a FF job when a law abiding citizen is there and all we have to do is train him?

    Being a fire fighter is a privelage, not a right. You become convicted of a felony, you lose the privelage. It's NOT silly and it is totally fair.

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    This person, a "trained" firefighter with a criminal background, for you know nothing about, is hired by your local FD. This person is now granted very private, personal, confidential information. Obviously this person has been found guilty of breaking the law in the past. What is to keep him from using this information to his benefit? Say you offer him employment of whatever kind your department does, something comes up missing... flashlight, gloves, hoods, fire engines. Who are the members going to look at first? Who are they going to pin blame on first? He is going to be the first person questioned when anything wrong happens or something disappears.

    *Mark
    FTM-PTB-RFB-EGH

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    Define "Criminal"

    Big difference between Murder and a bounced check.

    Same goes for Driving History...

    Big difference between DWI and parking violations.
    "When you are safe at home, you wish you were having an adventure-when you're having an adventure, you wish you were safe at home"

    --Thornton Wilder

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    jatkins, all criminals start small. Are you familiar with the two guys who recently escaped from jail here in KY? They were locked up in W. Ky for minor charges--one for a forged check, the other for using somebody else's credit card. No other criminal history.

    After they escaped, they went to SC, kidnapped a woman and stole her car. She has not been found. Next was the Huntington, WV-Ashland, KY area, where one was caught after a gunfight with police, who had chased him on foot after he attempted a carjacking at a mall. During their time there, a 19 YO college student never made it home from a friend's apartment; her car was found a couple days later, burned.

    The other fugitive was nearly caught after a high-speed pursuit in OH, and later snagged in IN.

    A forged check and credit-card fraud were just the warmup laps. Ergo, when we have any indication of a criminal tendency, we're better served to turn them away.
    I am more than just a serious basketball fan. I am a life-long addict. I was addicted from birth, in fact, because I was born in Kentucky.
    ― Hunter S. Thompson

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    OK just to play a little devils advocate here.

    What about the "double jeoprady" of the situation. The person had a trial, was convicted, and served his punishment. He has been rehabilitated. As a public entity, isn't the fire department now punishing him again for the same crime?

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    Why not gust shoot all those arested then they wont need a job?

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    Cool Alex, I'll take "Felons on Furlough" for $100

    While I understand your meaning, "Double Jeopardy" would mean that the person was found innocent first....this is not the question. This person was found guilty, and must now face the loss of some (if not all) rights.

    Convicted felons cannot carry a gun, nor can they register to vote. I think it is poor judgement to give them free access to millions of dollars in equipment, not to mention the authority to enter someones home.

    We (my department) often look at misdeanors on a case by case basis. 4th degree theft is way different than 4th degree assault.

    FG
    IACOJ.... "Carpe Elkhartem"
    (Seize the Nozzle)


    "Victorious warriors win first,
    and then go to war,
    while defeated warriors go to war first,
    and then seek to win."

    SUN TZU

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    EastKY,

    The point I was trying to make was that what is a "criminal" background is more contextual and should be subjected to a complete picture of the applicant--

    For example--

    Assume all applicants passed the written and the physical scoring similar results.

    Applicant A has FFI&II Certification, EMT, 5 years experience as a volunteer, and is 30. Clean military record, no accidents and DWI's in the last 7 years. Backround check has a conviction for Insufficient Funds resolved by payment and restitution 6 years ago. Rest of the criminal record is clean.

    Applicant B has no certs, no experience, and is 21. No military experience, no DWI's, no negatives on the background criminal check.

    Who is a better applicant?

    This is the problem, Applicant A is known variable (he's been a firefighter so you know he's at least capable of the job) while Applicant B, while having no negative derogatory marks, is also an unknown variable.

    The problem is that many departments are bound by rules that would prohibit Applicant A from "competing" for a position because of the misdemanor conviction a while back.

    The problem becomes readily apparent when Applicant B is hired and 5 years later, we come to find out that he has a lengthy juvenile record. Even worse we find out because he's an arsonist or something to that effect.

    Not making this a vollie vs career thing either because volunteer "hiring" practices are just as bad (if not worse in that no background check is done at all!)
    "When you are safe at home, you wish you were having an adventure-when you're having an adventure, you wish you were safe at home"

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    jatkins, you definitely have a valid point. The two KY knuckleheads had truly committed crimes, although minor ones; your applicant A could have just made a math error. (Been there!)

    What you're essentially saying, it seems, is 1. that a criminal check should not have a yes-or-no disposition; we should be able to qualify and quantify, and 2. a clean ADULT criminal check doesn't necessarily mean jack squat. Both points are very important and meaningful.

    There should be some means of allowing FD's ONLY to be notified if a juvenile has a relevant record, e.g. arson, but I don't think it would ever happen. We remain bound by our freedom.
    I am more than just a serious basketball fan. I am a life-long addict. I was addicted from birth, in fact, because I was born in Kentucky.
    ― Hunter S. Thompson

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    Not playing devils advocate. I don't want a person with a handfull of traffic violations driving my 40,000 pound fire truck around in emergency response mode. Seems to me he has a proven track record of reckless driving.

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    Originally posted by cdevoe
    Not playing devils advocate. I don't want a person with a handfull of traffic violations driving my 40,000 pound fire truck around in emergency response mode. Seems to me he has a proven track record of reckless driving.
    I don't want anyone driving a 40,000 pound fire truck around in emergency reponse mode while they have have been drinking, either...
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Yea, that is the rule in our department. We don't drive trucks after drinking.

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    EastKy,

    Yup --you got it brother--

    The big picture matters the most--locking departmental policy may set the bar high, but it leaves you permanantly shorthanded or with high turnover.
    "When you are safe at home, you wish you were having an adventure-when you're having an adventure, you wish you were safe at home"

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    40,000 truck-- I know of a VFD that had a good FF but did not let him drive. In another post a Florida FF should not drive with his record. Not all crimes are the same.

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    Originally posted by cdevoe
    Yea, that is the rule in our department. We don't drive trucks after drinking.
    In another thread, cdevoe states....
    Our department number 46 members, of that 21 are clearead for interior. Of the 21, we have about 10 or 15 that actually do it.

    So picture this, It's Friday night around 5:30 when we get toned out for an MVA. The 15 guys show. Afterwards we go off to Pour Jim's (the local restaurant/bar) We all have 1 or 2 beers. Next thing you know there is a fully involved structure fire. You have to take what you can get. 1 or 2 beers is not a problem, 10 or 12 is.
    So...What's the Mayfield VFD policy....according to your statement in the beer ban thread, nobody goes to the fire because they have been drinking, right?

    Or is it take what you an get and hope nobody gets killed in the process?
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Lightbulb

    Our department number 46 members, of that 21 are clearead for interior. Of the 21, we have about 10 or 15 that actually do it.
    Totally off topic but--This is definately a candidate for the

    ALAN BAIRD AWARD for Command Decision

    "When you are safe at home, you wish you were having an adventure-when you're having an adventure, you wish you were safe at home"

    --Thornton Wilder

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    Actually that quote should have been..

    You have to take what you can get. 1 or 2 beers is not a problem, 10 or 12 is.
    "When you are safe at home, you wish you were having an adventure-when you're having an adventure, you wish you were safe at home"

    --Thornton Wilder

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    ALAN BAIRD AWARD for Command Decision
    FYI, I don't make command decsions.

    So...What's the Mayfield VFD policy....according to your statement in the beer ban thread, nobody goes to the fire because they have been drinking, right?
    The policy is no one drives the trucks when they have been drinking.
    Question; How come for some of you people everything revolves around alcohol. What is your infatuation with it?

    Like most things in the Fire Service, we have learned that this are not Standard Operating Procedures, rather they are Standard Operating Guides. With all of these SOGs there has to be the ability to deviate to accomodate the anomalies.

    No Policy should be that rigid. Each case must be evaluated on it's own merits. When do the evaluation it is best to get as much info as possible, including background checks.

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    Question; How come for some of you people everything revolves around alcohol.
    Because it has no place on the fireground.
    "When you are safe at home, you wish you were having an adventure-when you're having an adventure, you wish you were safe at home"

    --Thornton Wilder

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    So why do they keep introducing it?

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