1. #1
    Member

    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Starkville, MS
    Posts
    32

    Default Aerials Defined...

    I need some education from all you truckies out there. Please define for me the various terms for aerials. Here's what I know (and don't know):
    tower - aerial ladder with a platform on top
    ladder - aerial ladder(with or without water)
    snorkel - is this generic for an aerial made not from extending ladder sections, but from articulating arms... or is this a brand name for Pierce aerials of this type? Do they always have a platform or can a snorkel be just an elevated pipe?

    Please expand/clarify this list. I'll take the thread and turn it into a glossary of aerial terms.

  2. #2
    Forum Member
    Weruj1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    NW Ohio
    Posts
    7,857

    Default

    Although not a truckie .............you have basically hit the nail on the head minus 1 term that I can think of and that is a "Squirt" or Tele-Squirt also marketed as a Sky boom.........
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
    RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
    LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607
    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

  3. #3
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,678

    Default

    Snorkel is not Pierce specific. We have one of those useless toys for about 30 years.

    Elevated articulating pipe was called a Snozzle in my rememberance, but not sure.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Dalmatian90's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2000
    Posts
    3,120

    Default

    How 'bout this:

    Aerial: Generic term for a power-raised ladder or water tower attached to a truck

    Water Tower: An aerial that lacks a ladder, it's strength coming from a solid box design.

    Ladder: Aerial whose primary strength comes from the intergrated-ladder design of it

    Ladder-Tower: A Ladder with a bucket on the end. i.e. most rear mount towers, Sutphens, etc.

    Tower-Ladder: A Water Tower with a ladder and bucket slapped on it. i.e. Aerialscope

    Squrt: Brand name for a water tower w/ a ladder attached to it. a/k/a Tele-squrts. While trade marked, has become a generic term like using Kleenex to describe tissues, with "Squirt" often used to describe this class of devices.

    Snorkel: Brand name for an articulating (has an elbow in it) water tower with a bucket on the end

    Snozzle: Brand name for an articulating water tower

  5. #5
    Temporarily/No Longer Active
    EoneTiller's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Raritan Twp, NJ
    Posts
    660

    Default

    TILLER:a tillered aerial or tractor drawn aerial cuz is drawn by a tractor.

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Smoke286's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    St John's, Newfoundland , Canada
    Posts
    310

    Default

    Originally posted by Bones42
    Snorkel is not Pierce specific. We have one of those useless toys for about 30 years.

    Elevated articulating pipe was called a Snozzle in my rememberance, but not sure.
    Just out of interest,why is it you feel a snorkel is a useless toy?
    It is considered one of the most useful pieces of apparatus in our inventory.

  7. #7
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Nov 1999
    Posts
    820

    Default

    Not trying to correct anyone but, some other thoughts. Brand names and who owns who aside for the moment:

    Squrt: Articulating waterway (Not telescoping) with no ladder attached, just a master stream device. Literally just two sections of waterway lifted by hydraulics with an elbow betwen the sections to allow articulation. See Philadelphia Fire Department, they run some on ALF's and maybe still on the older Seagraves.

    Tele-Squrt: Telescoping waterway with ladder attached to the top. Different concept than a true aerial ladder as the ladder is not an integral part of the waterway and vice versa. Technically there are variations of this type made by different manufacturers: E-One has a tele-boom, Pierce has the sky-boom, etc.

    Snozzle: Telescoping design with master stream attached only. No ladder on it. Think of it like a Squrt without the articulation elbow.

    Sky Arm, Bronto: Combination telescoping and articulating aerial device with platform. The bed and 2nd section are telescoping like normal. The fly section is articulating which allows the platform to be set on roof tops over parapet(?) walls, over the side of bridges, etc.

    Just some thoughts.
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


    Larry

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Dalmatian90's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2000
    Posts
    3,120

    Default

    Dal thanks Station2 while regretting he didn't drink his morning coffee...

    Du'oh I knew that

  9. #9
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,678

    Default

    Smoke286, in two short words...power lines. Snorkle can't get to anything because it can't go under or over the power lines that are running down all the streets. I can't say it has been useless, we did use it in the past to change light bulbs at the high school football field. Ours was originally built in early 1960's on a chassis with a small hosebed and no pump. Therefore, required an engine to be assigned to pump it. In 1991, against most of the members wishes (but not the truck committee) it was rechassied. Now has a small hose bed that can't lay 5 inch as the trough is too small to allow the couplings to pass (all other trucks are 5") and a 1500gpm pump. Having the pump is nice as the engine is no longer required, but then again, you have to pull the hose off the truck manually, it can't drop a line itself. To make up for it's inadequacies, we have a 55' TeleBoom that can get in under the wires almost everywhere we need it.

    Why do I call it a toy? It gets lots of care and cleaning because it looks nice at wetdowns and parades. There aren't too many in this area so it appears unique.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  10. #10
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Wheaton IL
    Posts
    1,765

    Default

    If your Snorkel is "useless" it is your fault not the Snorkels. A Snorkel is a very unique piece of equipment that needs a certain type of responce district to be utilized to its fullest.
    No aerial can set up and work in tight quarters like a snorkel can. Can you setup 10' from a building and work the bucket from the ground floor all the way up the face of a building? A snorkel can.

    A snorkel excels in an old "downtown" setting where buildings are only setback a few feet from the street. A snorkel can also go from a height to ground in a small space, great for taking people or equipment up and down in a short time. A good operator can also go up and over wires where a ladder can't go. (remember your OSHA distances) Most downtowns have wires in alleys anyway.

    No truck is an end all be all, you have to look at your district and purchase what is right for you not what is "cool" or the latest trend.

    As for the original post
    A Ladder is a straight stick
    A Ladder tower is a ladder with a basket on the end
    A Tower Ladder is an Aerialscope or Sutphen (not designed for climbing)
    A Snorkel has two booms and articulates
    A Snozzle / Sqirt is just an elevated stream and doesn't carry firefighters

    All of the above can be called a Truck Co. and someplaces also call them Ladder Co. in reference to the groundladders not the main as in Hook and Ladder.
    A truck or ladder company can also travel in a service ladder truck which carries a full compliment of ground ladders and tools but no main.

  11. #11
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,678

    Default

    If your Snorkel is "useless" it is your fault not the Snorkels. A Snorkel is a very unique piece of equipment that needs a certain type of responce district to be utilized to its fullest.
    Very true. We are not that type of responce district. It was a bad idea back in the 60's and it continues to be a bad idea....in my response area. It may work very well in other places. I should have clarified my comments a little better.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Dalmatian90's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2000
    Posts
    3,120

    Default

    Most downtowns have wires in alleys anyway.

    Depends on the part of the country. Overhead wires overhead is predominant in New England and other northeastern states I've been in. The unusual case is where you don't see wires. We're not big Snorkel country up here! Midwestern areas you're more likely to have wire-free business districts.

  13. #13
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Halligan84's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 1999
    Location
    Blackwood NJ, USA
    Posts
    816

    Default

    We're in the last months of a 25 year run with an 85' Snorkel. As soon as the new 95' midmount is in service it will be a distant memory. Snorkels excel at the points made previously but are absolutely dead in the water when faced with a set back from the street. No forgiveness whatsoever in positioning. The main problem is that the upper boom reaches 45 feet laterally, BUT you have to be 40' in the air for that to be true, anything higher or lower you lose. Suburban garden apartments set back and up on hills are killers as are most dwellings. Low, industrial park type buildings are great, close to the street, working around wires are great too. Had ours up and over wires quite a few times. But like Bones, it was never the rig for our first due. We went with the 5 section midmount because we can set it down within 30' of the truck, operate below grade and still have a great scrub area.

  14. #14
    MembersZone Subscriber
    E229Lt's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Posts
    2,987

    Default

    BRONTO: A utility truck that some clown decided to try and make into a fire truck. Put together in three countries (Finland, Canada and USA) and impossible to rectify the inherent problems through legal avenues, due to the lack of juristiction.

    A valid point was made in there about Tower Ladders. While they do carry a ladder, it is not used except for emergency egress. The typical TL is in constant motion, ie. inward and outward movement of the boom sections. A member on the "escape ladder" runs the risk of being pinned between the moving rungs when the PTO is engaged.

    $.02 from an Engine puke.

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Smoke286's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    St John's, Newfoundland , Canada
    Posts
    310

    Default

    Originally posted by Bones42
    Smoke286, in two short words...power lines. Snorkle can't get to anything because it can't go under or over the power lines that are running down all the streets. I can't say it has been useless, we did use it in the past to change light bulbs at the high school football field. Ours was originally built in early 1960's on a chassis with a small hosebed and no pump. Therefore, required an engine to be assigned to pump it. In 1991, against most of the members wishes (but not the truck committee) it was rechassied. Now has a small hose bed that can't lay 5 inch as the trough is too small to allow the couplings to pass (all other trucks are 5") and a 1500gpm pump. Having the pump is nice as the engine is no longer required, but then again, you have to pull the hose off the truck manually, it can't drop a line itself. To make up for it's inadequacies, we have a 55' TeleBoom that can get in under the wires almost everywhere we need it.

    Why do I call it a toy? It gets lots of care and cleaning because it looks nice at wetdowns and parades. There aren't too many in this area so it appears unique.
    OK , I get your point now Bones. I guess what works well in one sort of enviroment can be pretty well useless in another.

  16. #16
    Senior Member
    Smoke286's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    St John's, Newfoundland , Canada
    Posts
    310

    Default

    BTW, has a structure fire last night, the old snorkel was worth its weight in gold

  17. #17
    55 Years & Still Rolling
    hwoods's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Glenn Dale Md, Heart of the P.G. County Fire Belt....
    Posts
    10,739

    Talking Quad!!!!..................................

    I just realized why I know some of the answers!! Because I'm OLD!! The "stickless" truck is called a "Quad" or sometimes a "City Service Truck". They are pretty rare now, but were common from the 1920s thru the 50s. "Quad" comes from the four components, Pump, Hosebed, Tank, and Ladders, (add a stick and you have a Quint) This type came about from a desire to have more ladders and tools to satisfy what was the ISO of that era, the National Board of Fire Underwriters, which was a Insurance industry creation, to have a rating system for measuring public (and private) protection. You could get points for ground ladders and tools even if there was no fixed ladder (aerial) on the truck. Quads found themselves in the position that Quints are in today, not knowing quite what they were, and not being able to both jobs with one crew. (My opinion) Stay Safe....
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
    In memory of
    Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
    Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

    IACOJ Budget Analyst

    I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

    www.gdvfd18.com

  18. #18
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Nov 1999
    Posts
    820

    Default

    Triple: Pump, tank and hose bed.

    Quad: Pump, tank, hose bed and ground ladders (AKA city service ladder truck).

    Quint: Pump, tank, hose bed, ground ladders and aerial.

    Does anyone know what the booster tank and ground ladder minimum requirements are for the most recent Quint standard? It may surprise alot of people as it is pathetic at best.

    Hwoods, believe it or not a department in Kentucky (I can't remember the name of the department but it may have been around Louisville) recently recieved a new quad. An actual rig speced as such.
    Last edited by STATION2; 12-13-2002 at 05:30 PM.
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


    Larry

  19. #19
    Junior Member

    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Posts
    6

    Default

    300 gallons and 85 ft. But why are you just pointing out the quint minimums as being pathetic? The minimum tank size on a pumper apparatus is the same 300 gallons. Was 300, went to 500 for I don't know how many editions and now back down to 300.
    And you don't even have to build to the quint requirements, you can build pretty much any type of "quint" you want. 1901 allows you to build a pumper apparatus with an aerial device or an aerial apparatus with a pump.
    To a large degree, I don't think 1901 should be specifying anything but absolute minimums. However, I do find it odd that taxpayers could be shelling out some major dollars these days for let's say a pumper, big enclosed cab, AC, 500 HP diesel/auto, electronic this and that, stainless body, and on and on. But when it comes down to actual fire fighting capability, that same truck could be equipped with a 750 gpm pump, 300 gal tank, and 2 1/2" supply line and meet 2002 NFPA standards - that's an awful lot of money for what is essentially - say 1950's capability?
    Like I said, I don't necessarily think 1901 should be going far beyond absolute minimums, but I think the large manufacturer contingent on the committee is more than willing to let departments "have it their way" with these pretty rock bottom minimums so that they can continue to sell what I think in a lot of cases are a big, shiny, expensive toys.

  20. #20
    Permanently Removed
    CALFFBOU's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    CA
    Posts
    6,520

    Default Some pictures...

    Some pictures might help. This is a "telesquirt".
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  21. #21
    Permanently Removed
    CALFFBOU's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    CA
    Posts
    6,520

    Default And...

    Here is a "snorkel". I got to go up in one back
    in the 80s...Pretty fun.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  22. #22
    Senior Member
    Smoke286's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    St John's, Newfoundland , Canada
    Posts
    310

    Default Re: Quad!!!!..................................

    Originally posted by hwoods
    I just realized why I know some of the answers!! Because I'm OLD!! The "stickless" truck is called a "Quad" or sometimes a "City Service Truck". They are pretty rare now, but were common from the 1920s thru the 50s. "Quad" comes from the four components, Pump, Hosebed, Tank, and Ladders, (add a stick and you have a Quint) This type came about from a desire to have more ladders and tools to satisfy what was the ISO of that era, the National Board of Fire Underwriters, which was a Insurance industry creation, to have a rating system for measuring public (and private) protection. You could get points for ground ladders and tools even if there was no fixed ladder (aerial) on the truck. Quads found themselves in the position that Quints are in today, not knowing quite what they were, and not being able to both jobs with one crew. (My opinion) Stay Safe....
    Hey we have a saying here, 'theres no good in getting old if you don't get cute." Us old fellas are pretty cute

  23. #23
    55 Years & Still Rolling
    hwoods's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Glenn Dale Md, Heart of the P.G. County Fire Belt....
    Posts
    10,739

    Smile Thank You......

    Thanks to Smoke for the kind words,and thanks to Calffbou for the CROWN! pics. Real fire trucks......Stay Safe....
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
    In memory of
    Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
    Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

    IACOJ Budget Analyst

    I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

    www.gdvfd18.com

  24. #24
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Duffman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Chicago area
    Posts
    780

    Default Tell me if you've heard this one.

    I'd rather have a sister in a brothel than a brother on a truck co.

    Just kidding, as a engine guy, I know the value of a good truck co. Just a joke on old Chi. BC told during a class I took.
    "We shouldn't be opening firehouses in Baghdad and closing them in New York City."

    IACOJ

  25. #25
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Nov 1999
    Posts
    820

    Default

    Truck 633, its actually 300 gallons and 88 feet of ground ladders. But to the point I was trying to make. Too many departments are using quints in place of an Engine Co. and a Truck Co. Some departments buy a quint and run it as a Truck Co. Either way, there are not nearly enough ground ladders on most quints being built today. I know the buying department can beef up the ladder compliment, but alot of these departments go with the bare bones ladder compliment because it meets the minimum specs to be a quint. I think that the ladder compliment needs to be beefed up on the requirement side so departments get enough ladders onboard and don't get to a fire without enough ladders. As a minimum a quint should have sufficient ground ladders to reach and cover 1 side of a 3 story. That means 2 to each floor plus what is needed on the roof and inside. Just my thoughts.
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


    Larry

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register