1. #1
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    Default Looking for general ideas on a new engine

    Whats up brothers? My department is looking at getting a new engine. I decided to start a post on her to get some ideas and feedback on different wagons. We are looking at either Pierce or Seagrave, and in favor of a short wheelbase, side mount pump. Any ideas would be great, hope to hear some good ideas. Keep safe out the brothers

    Also, if you have any pics of your engine (short wheelbase + side mount pump) please email them to me at hookandcanman29@hotmail.com
    Last edited by TruckieTrash; 12-29-2002 at 07:46 PM.

  2. #2
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    What's up?
    Both of these companies are two of the best if not the best out there. How much h2o what size pump. have done a lot of research, may be able to help you out a little. Also have you considered looking at smeal. A town close to me just speced out a smeal on a HME P2, 1500 pump, 1000 h2o and it is only 27 6'. Let me know.

  3. #3
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    Although we are not running a short wheelbase we do like the extended front bumper with a preconnect 1 3/4" trash line for car fires, accidents and of course trash fires.

    We also like the rear intake, 4" or larger. It gets the LDH out of the way of the pump panels.

  4. #4
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    I think the easiest way to design a pumper or any rig for that matter is to determine what exactly you intend to do with it. For example first due, second due? How much water to carry? etc. Determine what you have already as far are tools are concerned, and what you plan on getting in the future. This all plays a major part in the designing stages. Once you know what you are going to put on it, and what its primary use is going to be. Hook up with the manufacturer rep and design the rig to your exact specs that you need now and down the road. There are many questions, how many firefighters? 4 man cab,6, 8,10? How much hose to carry? what kind of tools to carry? The rest is easy.

  5. #5
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    I recommend that you seriously research CAFS. While our company has had no direct experience with it, several of our neighbors do and from their experiences I feel that it is worth the time and effort to check it out.

  6. #6
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    My .02 cents:

    Chief 14 is right about CAFS. Really effective at stretching your water and making suppression quicker while limiting overhaul.

    Vertical Tool Boards: Helps with effective storage of tools and equipment in a smaller space.

    Pull Out Trays: Eases access for large/bulky items.

    Floodlighting: Highly recommend light tower and sufficient floodlighting around the apparatus.

    Tank Level Lights: Oversized and color coded on side of apparatus cab. Gives a good heads up to everyone on the fireground about the status of the pumping apparatus onboard water supply.

    Front Bumper: If this is Rescue/Engine put your tools and reels in the front bumper along with a trash line. Good use of space.

    Compartment Space: More is better. Plan for 3 years down the road, not just when you put it in service. Its amazing how much equipment/tools get added to apparatus over their service life. Have the room for it to be carried and be organized at the same time.

    Storage Bins: Look at alot of Rescue apparatus and how they carry equipment. Same application for pumpers. Use small, labeled and portable bins in your compartments to keep equipment neat, readily identifiable and together.

    Alminum Wheels: Not just because they look nice. Aluminum wheels have been proven to reduce brake fade by dissipating heat better than conventional steel wheels.

    Supplimental Braking System: Like a Jake Brake. Assist with stopping and slowing without totally depending and wearing your primary brake system. Avoid electrical devices which draw further from the apparatus electrical system.

    SCBA Cylinders: A minimum of 1 spare per SCBA onboard plus 2-4 more. Don't be dependent on an air cascade apparatus, neigboring department or station system. Be able to be 100% in service when you leave a scene. What are you gonna do if you catch another fire on the way back to quarters? Be prepared.

    Compartment Lining: Try a spray on liner like for pick up trucks in your compartments. Helps reduce the beating they often take.

    Ground Ladders: Don't skimp, especially if you don't have a Truck Co. in your department or close. Be able to do your own laddering. This may mean adding a 2nd ladder rack. It si worth it.

    Pump Panel: No matter side or top mount, make it as simple as humanly possible. Limit the clutter and chrome to the essentials only. This is the working end of the rig. Make it simple to use, easy to follow and your people will appreciate you.

    Intakes: No one says you can't put all your intakes in the officer side of the rig. Put your 2 large diameter intakes and your large diameter discharge on the officers side pump panel. This cleares the area of for the chauffeur when operating the pump.

    Booster Tank: Don't be close minded on the design of the tank. Put performance specs on the hose bed height from the ground and make the builder design and build a tank that results in a hose bed that is the height you want and need.

    Hose Bed: The lower the better. Make it as simple for your 5'5" tall member as your 6'7" member to get the hydrant connection of rear pre-connect off the rig. Also limits injuries from climbing to get to a 7' hose bed.

    PTO Generator: You have a transmission already, use it. Quieter and doesn't take up compartment space. Makes sense.

    Just some thoughts.
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


    Larry

  7. #7
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    Originally posted by drkblram
    check them out on www.tcfd.com I'm sure TCFD12 will enjoy my free plug for his dept.
    But of course!!

    Almost all of the points made by Station2 have been incorporated into our new trucks. Check out the pics at the above link and contact me if you have any questions. With any luck one of our new rigs will be going in service in the next week or so.
    Last edited by TCFD12; 01-02-2003 at 05:29 PM.
    "The hero is commonly the simplest and obscurest of men."
    -Henry David Thoreau

    Visit my dept. at www.TCFD.com

  8. #8
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    Hello Brother,

    You didnt say which type of dept you belong to or type of area you respond in. So i will describe my new engine to you. Please take what you want, leave what you dont need.

    We're a Fire Protection District and we cover a area surrounding a tourist town. In our area is some of the commercail sites the tourists visit and stay at. All the highways leading in and out of the town and we are mutual aided into the town.

    For our station, the busiest, located north of the tourist town and on the majoy thoroughway in out and around the town we bought a 4 door, 5 seat engine. Our dept choose long ago to go with commercial vs classic apparatus for many reasons.

    This engine is more of a rescue/engine than anything else. We have an extended front bumper with 1 1 3/4 attack line triple laid in a storage bin. The line is attached to a 2 1/2" swivel w/ a wye. On the left side underneath the 2nd door is a 1" 150' line on a hose reel. (we send a engine, tanker and 2 brush trucks to all natural cover-brush, grass, woodland fires). We have a side mounted Darley 1250 gpm pump w/ pump and roll capabilities. Above the pump panel are 3 preconnected lines triple-lay in crosslays. The 1st is a 1 3/4 150', 2nd 200' and the 3rd is 2 1/2 200'. Note all preconnect lines are colored coded w/ plastic plates. The plate on the handles on the pump panel are the same so at a glance someone that is rusty or still new at engineering wont have to waste time.
    We also purchased Foam Pro system. The engine has a 750 gallon water tank, 20 gallon class A and same size class B foam tank onboard. Like the guys said previously it is definately worth the cost. You get a quicker knockdown and easier overhaul with foam. For the owners of the homes there is less water damage and the foam acts like it sticks to exposures so you have to waste less water when protecting an exposure.
    Above the crosslays is our deck gun that extends up approx 2'. It also comes off and can be used as a monitor. Behind the deck gun is where we store 400' of 3" single lay supply. We incorporated roll up doors. They are great easy to use, stay out of the way. In the first compartment. We title that the engineers compartment. That should tell you what is stored there. Also in that compartment is a mike wired into the onboard radio. The speaker is mounted on top of the pump panel. This way there is no climbing in or out of the engine and a portable radio isnt tied up at the attack engine.
    The 2nd compartment above the duals has the irons, closet hook, shovel, rakes, broom in it. Most of these are mounted on the wall. The rest are placed on 1 of 2 shelves. The 3rd compartment has the saw, fan, fuels for both and a flashlight in its charger mounted on the wall. At the rear of the engine is a smaller compartment. In there is a rear intake (this is great and we have used it numerous times when we have had to draft from a lake/pond, laid line up a long driveway or to keep at least one lane open we have set the portatank up behind the engine. Stored inside the body of the engine is all the hard suction, ladders, pike poles and backboard. There is a 3" intake just above the rear compartment w/ a 30 degree bend it in. (along with the rear intake this keeps supply lines out of the engineers way on the pump panel). In the hose bed is 1000' of 5" supply line. For the shorter people on the department we have incorporated 2 aides to help them with reaching the bed. 1st there is a pull out step on the rear of the engine. 2nd attached to the end of the supply line is a 10' looped webbing. This webbing hangs out from the hose bed. Grab the loop and pull the 5" out. Inside the 1st 12' of LDH is the hydrant tools fittins. we have stortz fittings on the 5". Attached to that is a 5"stortz to 4 1/2 male to a 3" male w/ the wrench inside.
    Rear right side compartment is extrication equipment, glass master. In pull out trays you will find the air tools/fittings/hoses. Airbags are in slide out trays along with the regulator and air tank. Middle compartment has bottled water, tarpts, utility lines in bags, throw bags for water rescue and 2 PFD-personnel floatation devices/vest, and 2 helmets. Front right side compartment has wildland rakes, shovels, backpack water bladders in it. Opposite the pump panel is a large intake and discharge. Also we have a 100' 1 3/4 preconnect line for car, dumpster/trash fires. Underneath the right rear door is a compartment w/ a pullout bin of absorbent. Inside the cab is 5 seats w/ scbas in them. On the dash is a radio in its charger and a flashlight in its charger. Between the engineer and officers sit is the controls for the siren, latex gloves, maps etc. This compartment is hollowed out and from the back seats you can pull out the med bag fm underneath this box.

    I apologize for the length of this but like i said here are a # of ideas for a new truck. This truck has a 350hp Cat under the hood with a engine brake. Again I agree with previous entries they are great and will save alot and assist the trucks brakes. I agree with aluminum wheels too.

    Good luck with your engine and I hope your department the best with their new peice of equipment. If by chance you are located in the midwest I recommend, personally, Central States for your apparatus needs. I have been on 3 depts in the last 8 yrs. And have seen different apparatuses from different manufact. in that time. They have all been in the midwest but of them all I, personally, have been truely impressed with Central States.

  9. #9
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    Default New Engine

    I feel the most important thing in buying a new vehicle, is to make sure it is built by one builder, all at the same plant. If not, you will have all kinds of warranty problems, every problem is always the fault of the other guy. Check out LED's for all your D.O.T. lights.

  10. #10
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    Some helpful pointers...
    1) We use 1-3/4" hose. For all hose storage related to this, we spec for 2" hose - A MUST for hose trays in the front bumper. This allows for enough space for the hose and nozzle, especially if you use a lid on the trays.
    2) We spec for 3 crosslays. I was told this is to eliminate commiting another engine just for a handline; allows for less friction loss by not having a super long line from another engine (multiple floor structures); and just simply using the space to our best advantage.
    3)We spec our crosslays to be built as low as possible, to allow easier line deployment & reloading.
    4) PLEASE PAY ATTENTION TO THE PRINTS & SPEC SHEETS!! The manufacturer has a tendency to hide DEAD SPACES. We got burnt by this. Our truck has a compartment over the (R) side rear wheelwell. The opening is roughly 3" to 3-1/2" tall by say 42" wide. But, there's about 2-1/2" of dead ceiling space, due to the way this compartment was built.
    Hope this helps.

  11. #11
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    TruckieTrash:

    Depending on where you are in NJ, take a look at Mount Laurel Twp.’s new fleet. They seem to have put quite a bit of thought into their apparatus.

    Trumbull (TCFD) also has some very well-designed apparatus.

    Station 2 has an excellent list. Some of the items on my list have already been mentioned, but I’ll repeat them for emphasis.

    -Low, color coded preconnects, with at least 1 in the front bumper. Minimum of 4 standard attack lines, plus 1 or 2 double their length, as well as a 1-2 person 500-750gpm blitz line.

    -Always spec pre-connect discharges bigger than you need them to allow for flexibility in the future. This is especially true for bumper discharges – minimum of 2 ½” plumbing. You can always adapt down or add a wye/water thief.

    -One fixed, one portable monitor. The deck mounted gun should be 2,000gpm capable.

    -MIVs, Akron Black Max, or TFT BIVs on at least 2 intakes. For departments that draft regularly, you should be able to draft without removing the intake valve.

    -Electronic engine governor for pump controls, with a the standard hand throttle and pressure relief valve controls behind a door on the panel as a backup system.

    -Incremental tank level lights (takes the guess work out of booster tank ops).

    -Over size water level lights.

    -Biggest possible pump for engine.

    -Class 'A' foam (preferably CAFS).

    -Split LDH bed, with room to grow. Dividers are cheap – buy some extra. The ability to lay dual LDH lines is an incredible resource.

    -Minimum ladder compliment should be something like this: (1) 35’ ext., (1) 24’ ext., (2) 16’ roof, (1) 10’ attic, (1) 1 A-frame. NFPA aerial ground ladder compliment should be standard on engines.

    -PTO generator with shift on the fly.

    -Minimum 1,500 watts of fixed lighting per side (that includes front and back), a light tower, a couple of tripods, and some ground lights. If you can’t afford a light mast, add a few 1500-2000 watt pole lights. Make sure that you spec bottom raise poles if you do this, and set them up to allow the light heads to be stored facing OUT.

    -Custom mounting for all tools and equipment (see details in Station 2’s list). Mount all appropriate tools in cab – handlights (for all seating positions) imagers, gas meters, irons, EMS equipment, etc. Speaking of EMS equipment: if you care one bit about your crew members, you better carry at least an AED on all apparatus.

    -Use LEDs where ever possible.

    -Raised roof – the cost to do this is negligible and provides the crew with a much better working area.

    -Forward facing SCBA seats – If you’ve read my post on Milwaukee’s apparatus....well, enough said.

    -Use ALL of your dead space. You single bottle wheel well compartments should hold 3 bottles apiece. Dead space under the cab should be a compartment. Fill up your dunnage area with items such as reels (better yet, enclose the pump and extend the hosebed).

    For rural apparatus:

    -One or two pre-connected 20-30’ 6” squirrel tail suctions (with floating strainers and foot valves) or turbo drafts.

    -20-30’ 3” squirrel tail for tank filling and other low-flow operations

    -A pre-connected 6” suction with low-level strainer and foot valve on the front bumper intake is great if you use dump tanks

  12. #12
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    If you spec dual beds, make sure to color code your LDH.

    In addition to dual beds of 5", this engine has a few other handy features at the rear including an arrowstick, rear vision camera and 6" suction with stortz couplings:
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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    Here's some oversized water level lights. LEDs look a little bit neater, but these still do the job. Downside to this rig is the small light head (500 watt - should be at least 1500 watt) and light pole that doesn't allow the light to be stored facing out:
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  14. #14
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    Here is our Engine(s) rear. 1000' of 4 inch, 1000' of 3 1/2 inch
    200' of 3" Blitz line, 200' of 1 3/4" pre-connect and 150' of 1 3/4" pre-connect. a 7.5kW generator, and 250' of 1" booster Line.

    We have a high hose bed.
    Rob aka Squinty

    The Fighting Seventy-Third

    Westville Fire Department
    Gloucester County
    New Jersey

  15. #15
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    Here's some forward facing water level lights, a remote monitor, and a 1500w forward facing flood light. Why aren't the tank lights color coded you ask? Isn't water blue?
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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    Low warning lights on the front of the apparatus are a good safety feature. This pair of LEDs mounted on the face of the bumper do the job nicely:
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  17. #17
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    Just because you only paid for one bumper hose tray and discharge doesn't mean that that's what you need to live with. Have the manufacturer put in a short divider, throw on a gated wye or water thief, and you get a free preconnect.

    A 2 1/2" or 3" discharge would have allowed for even more flexibility on the bumper of this 95' mid-mount tower CAFS quint:
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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    Here's a smart department that just wanted a small handline in the bumper, but looking towards the future, spec'd a 2 1/2" discharge which they then reduced to 1 1/2" thread:
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  19. #19
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    We almost always put elbows on LDH intakes; why should the front inake be an exception?
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  20. #20
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    Default Short Wheelbase side mount pump

    We needed a short wheelbase pumper for some of our narrow streets. This truck is first due out. Carries 750 gallons of water, 500 feet of 5" and all the discharges are off the rear (allows easy pull no matter what side of the street the fire is on).

    You can see more at www.buddlakefire.org. Including pictures of the compartments and close ups.

    Good luck with your new engine.

  21. #21
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    Do not exclude any manufacturer when you send out your bid requests. Anybody can make you a good truck, if you spec it and tell them Exactly what you want! I would call around to other FD's who have different trucks in your area and ask them how the service has been on those trucks. We have a pair of brand new E-Ones, our pumper is a close cousin of TCFD12's and they are amazing rigs, very well designed, and put together right.

    But, and this is a big but, the local service on them has sucked. We have repeatedly sent the trucks out for minor work, like a bad switch on the intercomm abd one nonfunctional strobe on our tower, and a year later the friggen thing still is not fixed.

    If anyone were to ask me about buying another E-One I'd warn them about the service as a major minus to the purchase.

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