1. #1
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    Default Fire Dept Connections

    OK, I'm looking for a knowledable brother to give me experience tested insight into pump operations with fire dept connections. Is there is a difference in pumping techniques between a sprinkler siamese, a standpipe siamese, and a combo setup? Any knowledge would be greatly appreciated.

  2. #2
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    Default Possible Help

    I'll try to help you out some by letting you know my department's policy and some experience that I have had.

    Friction loss and elevation can be the killer in any standpipe, sprinkler system, or combination system. But, also many times the problem that is discovered in a standpipe system is the attack nozzle utilized. A normal nozzle such as a Task Force Tip may not operate properly at a high above ground fire which is usually where we use standpipes. My department and many others, recommend a nozzle pressure for a TFT combination nozzle to be 100 psi nozzle pressure. Here inlies the problem. At an altitude challenged fire the pressure required to overcome the head pressure steals from the required nozzle pressure and therefore the nozzle does not operate properly. So my department has put on all high rise packs, Elkhart 205-A Mystery nozzles which will deliver 200 GPM at 75 psi. This has really helped the high rise operation. We now get a proper hose stream out of the nozzles. But these nozzles do not work very well at the ground level. They are designed for highrise and that is where they should remain.

    As for other policies...
    Friction losses :
    Standpipe = 25 psi + 1/2 psi per foot of elevation (or 10 psi per floor) above the ground floor + friction loss of hose lays.

    Remember : Engine pressure = Nozzle pressure + friction loss of hose + friction loss of fittings, adapters, appliances + elevation.

    Sprinkler system = are pumped at 150 psi.

    To maximumize the effectiveness of any standpipe or sprinkler system, you must fill all orifaces. In other words, if you have two suction ports on your engine, and a hydrant with 2 or more outlets use them all. Lay hose to all the inputs at the FDC. Do not leave any of them open, and try to find the closest hydrant and the engine should not be spotted any further than 200' from the FDC. If possible, you may need to locate a second water source or have another engine pump to you.

    Any time that you are operating / pumping a standpipe or sprinkler system, that is all that you do. You do NOT have other attack lines off your rig. You should be single function.

    That is the basics of the FDC operation. If you have the opertnity to play with them, do. Practice and drilling are always the best answers.

    For more information, contact a department with a lot of highrise experience such a FDNY, Los Angeles City Fire, Chicago FD. They use this stuff more than any of us do and they have seen the good and the bad.

    Captain Rob Weaver
    Los Angeles County Fire Department

    rweaver@lacofd.org

  3. #3
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    Default

    Pride373,

    In my experience with the three types of systems you asked about, the only thing that I can pass on is that with Combination systems, you might see more friction loss.

    My department is faced with all three types, and we've noticed this during training with each type of system. I believe it depends on how the system is designed. The reason I say this, is because at another location with a Combination system, we experienced no additonal pressure loss.

    I have to agree with TheWeave, regarding elevation and what it can do to nozzles. We went to a "break apart" nozzle in our high rise kits. It is a low pressure TFT tip with an emergency low pressure knob located on the end of the nozzle. Behind this tip is a 7/8" stub tip (solid bore), and then of course the valve. We don't have many high rise buildings, but in all the tests we've done the nozzle has worked great.

    Hope this helps

  4. #4
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    The Weave
    I wonder if you could answer a couple of questions?
    Why does the Elkhart nozzle not work properly at ground level? Is it not just a LowPressure nozzle pumped to flow 200 gpm?
    Would switching to a solid bore nozzle and 1 3/4 or 2" hose deliver your needed flow at a lower engine pressure?
    And finally, what size hose do you use in your hi-rise kits along with your Elkhart nozzle?
    Many thanks, Brian

  5. #5
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    Weave, I had some 2" Ponn that we tested for use in a hose bundle. I used the 200/75* 205 BA Elkhart on it with 1" Slug shutoff behind it. I have had good success with it. The Chief 2000-25 will give you a more polished straight stream but I can buy two 205's for the cost of one Chief. As to the rest of your post agree 100%. Watch your butt, Fire season seems to be starting early this year.

  6. #6
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    Default

    I'll see what I can do to answer the questions.

    I have one correction to my previous reply....I said we add 10 psi per floor. The correct number should be 1/2 psi per foot or 5 psi per floor above the ground floor or -5 psi per floor below the ground floor (this is based on 10 feet per floor). SORRY ABOUT THAT.

    BrianMacc - As for your question about the 205-BA not working well on level ground I do not really have an answer for you. I'm sure there is a hydraulic answer for it, but when we have used it during drills, it acts like an "open butt". We open the nozzle and we get a lot of water out of it, but then the hose almost seems to empty, like it is in flush mode, but then when we take it above ground, it works great. Technically, if the hydraulics were done properly, it should work fine, but when we have done them to the "TEE", we seem to get a poor stream pattern, whereas the TFT or other nozzles work great (even counting for the difference in NP).

    As for the hose on our highrise packs, we use 1 3/4" light weight hose (Angus Premier Lite - Orange Hose). We usually pack them in 100' packs and occasionally 150' packs and install a nozzle and a gated wye (2 1/2" by 2 - 1 1/2")

    We have all of our highrise nozzles color coded to ORANGE tips so they stay with the highrise packs (done by the factory when ordered).

    I thank you for your questions and comments. It is communication like this that allows us to learn. Next shift I will have my crew set up the highrise pack on level ground and we will play again to see what happens. Maybe we made an error last time, but then I keep asking myself, why do we have 2 different types of fog nozzles for the same size hose? If the low pressure one works fine at ground level, why not use it there too? Better reach, better patterns, more / less water, nozzle reaction? I hope to have some of these answers soon. I will report what I learned, and invite you to do the same.

    TheWeave.

  7. #7
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    Weave, I'm a little out of the loop right now. Have a ton of stuff at home to include a flow meter and pressure gauges. Unfortunately I am stationed in Europe for the time being and that is all in storage. Drop me a line and when I get home I'll drag my stuff out and we can flow test some different configurations. Put the arm on somebody over at the City for some of the 2" Angus Hi Power and we'll throw it on the ground and compare it to what you have.


    Blue Skies, John F.
    Last edited by Citadel; 02-06-2003 at 04:54 AM.

  8. #8
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    Default New Info

    OK, I have some results. First I must say OOPS.... That nozzle that I used in the past was missing, and for good reason.... It had a defect and that is why it did not work well. I should have discovered that myself, and for that I feel bad, luckly no one was injured by it, but the good news it is being repaired, when it returns who knows, "they" tell me to order a new one (easier said than done). But I could not leave you all hanging so I contacted our West Hollywood Fire Station # 7 (the high rise guru's) and this is what all their info / study came to.

    #1 - The Elkhart 205-BA nozzle is great!!!
    #2 - When pumped properly it outpreformed the TFT.
    #3 - They even like it for all operations (ground level and highrise)
    #4 - They have started to change out all their nozzles
    #5 - They like the fact that it may be shut off at the 'D' handle or at the tip which allows them to extend the line if necessary.
    #6 - With the reduced pressure, the hose line is easier to handle and is more movable.
    #7 - The pattern has been more true than the TFT. They experience a more complete fog and tighter straight stream. The droplets are finer and more true.
    #8 - They like the control at the tip.

    With all this I would say they think it is worth while. I have been unable to test it myself but will test it in the near future as soon as I get one. I would have to agree on their opinion due to their experience and expertise on this subject.

    The department has been changing the name of our "High Rise Packs" to "Standard Hose Packs" due to the increased use of the nozzle and possible uses of a hose pack. The study has confirmed that the pack should be used any time it is desirable or needed, instead of just at a high rise. For example; deep lots, extending a hose line, or to devide a line into two.

    Our standard hose packs will consist of the following :

    1 - Elkhart 205-BA low pressure nozzle (200 GPM @ 75 psi)
    1 - 2 1/2" to 1 1/2" Gated Wye with a 1 1/2" to 2 1/2" increaser
    on one of the ports.
    1 - Lightwieght spanner
    4 - Straps
    2 - 50' sections of 1 3/4" light weight hose

    The pack should be folded so that it is 5' in length and should come apart easily (an accordian type of fold works well). Straps are to secure the hardware and hold the pack together. Try to keep all the hardware in one location so it is easily accessible and easy to secure.

    Use your imagination, test your equipment, practice as you play, have fun, and share your information....It is how we learn.

    TheWeave

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