1. #1
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    Default Stupid Is as Stupid Does

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    Last edited by fireflyer; 06-30-2003 at 06:29 PM.

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    Default RUN!

    Personally, if I'm the certified FF that shows up and sees how unsafely people are operating inside, I'm runnin' like hell. I'm putting as much distance between myself and that accident waiting to happen as I possibly can. Why would I want to be anywhere near this disaster?

    Sounds like this guy has as much business commanding on the fireground as my 6 yr old has commanding troops in the Persian Gulf. Has he ever heard of a little group called the NFPA. You may want to introduce him. If he's not interested in meeting Mr. NFPA, bring in Mr. OSHA. He can be a little more persuasive.

    Good luck, you've got your work cut out for you with this mutt.

    Good Day!
    Lt. D. Gordon
    Greendale Fire Department
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    Default

    And I thought it was only down here that crazy things like that happened on firegrounds. You've ruined my argument now that nowhere else in the world would you be allowed to do such dumb things. What you can get away with depends on your standing in the department - the longer you've been in, the more you can get away with - instead of the longer you've been in the more you should know that things like this are WRONG!

    Originally posted by gordoffemt
    Personally, if I'm the certified FF that shows up and sees how unsafely people are operating inside, I'm runnin' like hell. I'm putting as much distance between myself and that accident waiting to happen as I possibly can. Why would I want to be anywhere near this disaster?
    Absolutely. Every so often we are at a fire and I see things that just make me wish I could be somewhere else... anywhere else would do, the further away the better.
    Last edited by stillPSFB; 01-09-2003 at 08:20 AM.
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    Thumbs down Face Shields

    I agree with what's been posted, but I'll go a step further:

    I think we should start a campaign to remove the faceshields from these helmets. If you take a moment to read them, they clearly state: "Not intended for impact protection."

    Okay, why wear them, then? I NEED impact protection! I think they give many wearers a face sense of security. Granted, they will provide some protection, but I'd just as soon have my goggles on, thank you.
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    Default

    There is a nice article out there on the OSHA/NFPA Eye Protection Standards at http://www.essgoggles.com/products/regs.html

    Goggles are "Primary Protectors"

    Faceshields are only "Secondary Protectors"

    Maybe you should print off the article and post it on the bulletin board when no one is looking and see if they can take a hint.
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    Default

    Unfortunately, it has been my experience that such people think they "know everything" and won't read it. They won't change unless someone in the chain of command makes them (usually kicking and screaming) change.

    Sounds like you may have bigger problems if the people in command are aware of the situation and are not doing anything about it. Is there a broad enough concensus in your department that this captain is a problem that you could approach your chief officers in a group to make your concerns known? If it's obvious that this guy is causing problems for a lot of the firefighters, some action may be taken. In any case, it probably won't happen over night.
    Last edited by CJMinick390; 01-09-2003 at 10:09 AM.
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    Default

    Doesn't the essgoggles article state that to be truly compliant, you should wear goggles and face shield? Goggles for eye protection, shield for face protection?


    He refuses to let this firefighter put on an SCBA and battle the fire because he has on goggles instead of a face shield.
    Are there many people out there that wear goggles under the SCBA mask? Never heard of someone doing this.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Angry And the story behind the story?

    Several Questions.... Jaybird? You Moved? I thought the Wurtz's were nice neighbors. Another Question (Back to work here.) A BOOSTER line? As an attack line on a structure fire? We outlawed that 50 years ago (or more). The BIG QUESTION is: What is really behind this? I can assure everyone it's not the absence of a face shield. There is a major problem between the two individuals involved, and it goes downhill from there. If anyone knows ALL the scoop on this, and is not personally involved, they should be talking to the state OSHA office. If the details "booster line" and people "operating with NO protective gear on" are correct,There is a clear and absolute need to do whatever is necessary to FORCE a change in how this department operates. Stay Safe....
    Last edited by hwoods; 01-09-2003 at 10:14 AM.
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    Default

    Hmm...what is wrong with this situation?
    All the statements on eye protection aside, I think that the answer to the question is much simpler (although the points about eye protection are right on point).

    This incident exposes an IC on a political power play. Pure and simple. Seen it dozens of times before, I'm sure I'll see it dozens of times again.

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    Unless we get some further information to the contrary, I think you've got it nailed George.
    Chris Minick, P.E., Firefighter II
    Structures Specialist, MD-TF 1

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    Default

    .
    Last edited by fireflyer; 06-30-2003 at 06:28 PM.

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    Unhappy for those who were wondering...

    I am the firefighter who fireflyer has been referring to, and I would like to confirm that all of the statements made about the booster line and lieutenants being in the structure without turnouts are true. I also have one of our EMRs who was on scene with me who can verify it. One of the officers on scene said, “That’s the nice thing about having one small enough to fight with a rubber line. It’s easy to pick up.” (Our booster lines are ¾” rubber hose.)

    We found out after the incident that before I arrived on scene (and before the engine got there) these same lieutenants were in the structure fighting the fire with the garden hose the residents had brought into the house prior to the fire department arrival. One of the people involved in that (and with no turnouts or any protective clothing, unless you count a t-shirt and baseball cap) is just about the highest ranking officer we can go to. Anything above him is pretty much having to go outside the department for help. And yes, we've been there.

    Any ideas any of you can give us on how to proceed are welcome.

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    Angry

    I'm just gonna guess here and say you elect your officers and your chief, right?

    I used to belong to an FD that did everything by elections. It was horrible, the stuff which happened. The best trained member of the department, a state fire acadamy instructor, would make Lt once every 2 or 3 years, and get voted out of the spot the next election because he had the NERVE to tell people how to put out a fire safely! That was a very unpopular position to take since there was a group of brothers and their father (youngest was in his 40's) who had enough voting power to run the show and who's father had been chief and knew everything there was to know about fighting fires, and "don't need no edujmacations to learned how to do it betta."

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    It is truly unfair that women and men risk their well-being as volunteers........however things like this do occur in the "vollies". It is all about personalities and the vote......not necessarily qualification or training that allows an IC of this minatude to command.
    All else failing.......why not a delegation to the County Authorities, providing you have "all" your facts together prior to approaching them?

    Make no mistake.......not all Volunteer Units are run this way, quite a few might just match up with Paid Departments based on their skills and training........but to a degree, fact is; It does exist, hell I've known FDNY Chiefs not worth a damn!
    "All gave some...Some gave all!"
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    Angry This cap's a CHUMP.

    Flyr-
    You may not be an OSHA state, but there's got to be some governing authority. For example, IL is not an OSHA state, but we've got the IL Dept of Labor, and they have adopted ALL of OSHA statdards, plus a few of their own! If you have any knowlegable employers in your area (especially if there's a big earthmoving contractor or similar enterprise), their personnel person will know who the gov is.

    Also, we all answer to somebody. Your chief has to answer to somebody. In our case, my chief reports to a Fire Distrcit Board of Trustees. They are appointed by the County Board (in some places, these guys are elected). So, if we had the kind of trouble you're having, we would have to start with the Fire District Trustees. [If you are a municipal dept, you might want to go to whoever appoints the chief (A one-on-one would be best. There's probably one alderman/selectman/trustee who has a "Public Safety" committee type responsibility)]. If, as in our case, the chief is good buddies with the trustees, we would have to go to the County Board. Somewhere up the chain, you'll find somebody who will care that there is dangerous, unsafe activity going on, and will start to snoop. Remind the people you talk to that the courts are finding officers and bosses personally, civilly, and now (see A. Baird) CRIMINALLY responsible for their actions. A captain who puts his peoples lives at risk based on your descriptions, could go to jail for a significant stretch, lose all his stuff, and pay for a long time. Ditto the fire department. Now, obviously (again based on your descriptions), you won't get any interest out of the chief or officers over this ("that won'thapen to us"), but again, eventually, you'll talk to someone who won't want to have to pay. It may end up being the taxpayers who would have to cough up tax money to pay off a large settlement. Or it may be your worker's comp insurance carrier.

    Remember what I said earlier, though: If what you do works, bully for you. If not, it could be career suicide, so tread carefully. Only you can decide how much risk you can take. But the "risk" knife cuts both ways: risk your job (even if it is volly) over these chumps, or risk your life (or a buddy's) because you kept quiet. Good luck, bud.
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    I agree with Jaybird

    Federal OSHA does not have jurisdiction over public sector employees in non-state plan states but most states have adopted safety and health standards that apply. Mississippi apparently has not.

    See http://www.oig.dol.gov/public/report...001-10-001.pdf

    Copied from above pdf file
    “Although Mississippi performs public sector safety and health inspections, there is no legislative authority, no standards have been adopted, complaint procedures have not been established, and
    public employees are not protected from retaliation for whistle blowing. Mississippi described its public sector coverage as a voluntary protection program. Mississippi has no statutes designed specifically to protect public sector employees that complain of workplace hazards.”



    Be Safe

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    Default

    .
    Last edited by fireflyer; 06-30-2003 at 06:27 PM.

  18. #18
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    Default Is this the same officer

    Fireflyer, is this the same officer that likes to establish command before he is on the scene?

    If so, you may want to consider establishing a safety officer in addition to IC. Our policy is that the IC cannot be the SO, unless there is not enough people, and when more arrive (i.e. Mutual Aid), the senior member become SO. It has worked out well for us and our Mutual Aid partners.

    In our case, the SO has the right to overrule the IC if conditions warrent. I the case of FF in a structure without PPE, the SO would pull them out and send in the FF in full PPE.

    Talk to your board and have your SOP/SOG change to have an SO at every incident. If that same officer gets overruled enough, maybe he will stop taking command and putting FF in danger.

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    Default

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    Last edited by fireflyer; 06-30-2003 at 06:26 PM.

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    Default

    .
    Last edited by fireflyer; 06-30-2003 at 06:26 PM.

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    fireflyer and sonofapreacher,
    It's been a few months, hope you two are doing well up there - this nonsense aside.

    You two are in a bad situation that you won't be able to address through the chain of command or any other local controlling authority. You've tried to get opinions from beyond the local level, but even if you did, this captain isn't going to follow them. I know his type.

    You've got to make the kind of changes you want to see from the ground up through training and mentoring and teaching and practicing safety to those in your circle of influence. Always be looking out for yourself and your crew, especially when this captain is on scene.

    Deep down, your desire to help is greater than any crap you have to deal with from the local good ol' cowboys. For some things, like this shield business, you will have to play the game their way. Just make sure you don't compromise on your personal safety or the safety of your crew.

    It's a long, hard fight and you have to last many rounds. However, in the long run you will be able to create the change you wish to see. Perhaps after you've moved on following school, but the change will happen - I just hope it is before someone is seriously injured by this fool.

    Take care you two - call me next time you're in town!

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    Post One More Time???

    OK Someone tell me one more time...NOBODY IN THE STATE OF MISS. OUTRANKS THE LOCAL FIRE CHIEF???? Stay Safe....
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
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    As nasty as this may sound , Don't forget the power of the press to make a dept shine......

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    Last edited by fireflyer; 07-01-2003 at 01:40 AM.

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    Wow! Even the insurance man doesn't care? Sheesh! What a mess! Move on up here to IL. We'll take care of you! (Can't do anything about the weather, though. Sorry).
    Omnis Cedo Domus

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