Thread: Rear Pumps

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    Question Rear Pumps

    Are department has two engines, a 1998 Seagrave and a 1975 Mack. We are looking to order a new engine to replace the Mack engine and was wondering what advantages a rear pump gives other departments that have them.

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    My career department runs a 2000 Boise Mobile Equipment on a Freightliner chasis, 4 door, 4 wheel drive with a rear-mount pump. It takes up the whole rear of the truck under a roll-up door. It serves its purposes I guess. It is like working on a side mount, but just at the rear of the vehicle, provides for better visiblity for whichever side of the truck is to the curb.

    *Mark
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    if you are a mostly rural department than i can help you. we just got a new 2002 international rear mount pumper. the pump panel is covered by a roll up door on the drivers side. you dont have to worry about the pump freezing if you drain it. if you operate on narrow rural roads the draft tanks is directly behind the truck so you dont have to worry about taking up the road that your tankers need. i guess it is kind of the same with a town street two so other trucks can get by. there is a picture of it on the website for the truck manufacturer under new deliveries. it is the ohio pumper. the site is www.alexisfire.com
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    I kind of like the idea of rear mount pumps for the reasons stated, several of our neighboring departments have them. One good thing is that the driver can see both sides of the engine at the same time, you can do that with a cross-mount panel as well, but normally the truck wheelbase would be longer, and no compartment space gained. There are however some bad things that have cropped up that you need to be aware of. One is that in traffic the driver will be dead meat if the truck is rearended at a scene. In some installations the hose pulls over the driver's head and is a major PITA to work around. I have seen two failures of these pumps, in one instance the frame actually cracked because of the weight hanging off of the rear, in the other, there were several drive-shaft failures due to the PTO configuration. I'm not saying that these are insurmountable problems, a rear mount may be perfect for your dept but you need to keep these in mind.

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    our department took 3 years to research other trucks like it and come up with the final specs. it then took another 1.5 years to build the truck. we are starting to spec out a new tanker pumper now that we got a state grant for 25,000 dollars.
    "Let's Roll." Todd Beamer 9/11 first soldier in the war on terror

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    Default rear mount pumps

    We have 13 rear mount pump engines in our department. four are Freightliner FL-80/ Luvernes. The other 9 are Freightliner FL-106/ Saulsbury. They have the Hale PSD 1250 gpm pumps. We went to them to save space on our trucks mainly. The pumps are in the left rear compartment enclosed by roll up door. ALL intakes and discharges (except bumper line) comes off rear. Gets a little busy.

    Advantages:
    No hoses comong off pump panel (safer)
    Positioned at left rear (Safety-can get out of traffic)

    Disadvantages:
    Gets VERY busy with attack and supply lines all coming off rear
    Pump heats up MUCH quicker
    No matydales/ crosslays (could be done though)

    We currently have five more on order from American Lafrance/Becker to be built again on Freightliner chassis (unfortunately).

    It is a big departure from our Custom Sutphen pumper which we still have 11 of.

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    also with the rear mounted pump if the truck starts rolling it's a 50%/50% chance it's rolling backwards.
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    Arrow Gotta be on top!

    Originally posted by BLACKSHEEP1
    ...in traffic the driver will be dead meat if the truck is rearended at a scene. In some installations the hose pulls over the driver's head and is a major PITA to work around...
    Top mount. Top mount. Top mount.

    The engineer can see both sides of the truck, he is out of traffic and is protected from any discharge lines coming loose.

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    Well, I hate to put a damper on the top mount, but during the riots in St. Pete in '96, there were a whole lot of driver enginees wishing they didn't have top mounts. They became bottle-magnets for the locals.

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    Not all rear-mount pumps have the pump operator's position in the rear. Many have them at the left or right rear compartment.

    This eliminates getting hit in the head with a hose and still allows the PO to see at least two sides of the truck.

    With the short staffing we have here, the top-mount pump panel is a pain - all that climbing up and down and up and down and up and down.......

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    Originally posted by Stuart
    With the short staffing we have here, the top-mount pump panel is a pain - all that climbing up and down and up and down and up and down.......
    What else do you guys have your engineer doing?

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    Well, if it's like our 3 man engine, he's clearing the hose bed, starting the generator, getting the fan to the door, making sure the accountability board is complete, setting up the lights,making the 5inch connection, getting equipment for arriving crews and probably a few other things I've not considerred, and how is it that all of the stuff that is returned to the engine ends up in the crosswalk? Really, I don't have a problem with crossmount panels, but I'm not sure they're for everybody. Especially when everybody is throwing bricks......Of course, a good shot with a brick could probably get you anywhere.

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    Thumbs up Rear Pumps ????

    We currently are switching to the rear (Left side) mounted pumps in our new Saulsbury's. Our older Saulsbury's had the typical midship pumps that were single stage 1250 gpm pumps. The new ones are still single stage and still 1250 gpm pumps, but are alot smaller only holding about 2.5 gallons of water in them. They still seem to pump like crazy though. No real significant loss is cabinet space was noted. We have our preconnets mounted low - on the bumper, so we don't have some of the problems that were mentioned earlier. Only three 2.5 " lines off of the back, if needed. You really have to watch the overheating issues with the smaller pumps. Less water = pumps overheating easier. Just keep one of the lines open to recirculate the water and everything should be okay. The weight savings over the larger pumps allow us to carry additional EMS and WMD stuff that, unfortunatly, we now have to carry with us. It's just getting used to and using the new trucks/pumps.

    P.S. If you have the pump panel mounted on the side in the rear, consider enclosing it in a compartment that has a roll-up door. Our first rear pump unit had standard doors and the Engineer had to step back (and into traffic) to see around the open doors.


    d.mac

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    cosmosis:

    We have a combination department with two paid personnel on duty. For a reported structure fire, 1 guy will take a mini-pumper and 1 guy takes a 2,000 gallon engine-tanker. We then hope the volunteers show up. We have no hydrants in town, only a bunch of dry hydrants scattered around town.

    At the last fire (attached 2 car garage with vehicles inside), I stretched a 3" handline, charged that up, stretched a 1 3/4" handline, charged that, then was preparing supply lines for the incoming mutual aid all the while playing incident commander, safety officer and water supply officer. Did I feel very lonely for a while - you bet. After that I was setting up lighting, getting ladders, halligan bars and additional lines off the truck.

    Hey, doesn't everyone run one-man engine companies????

    I heard something about a 2-in/2 out rule - yeah right!

    Needless to say, I didn't have much time to stand at the pump panel.
    Last edited by Stuart; 01-16-2003 at 03:16 PM.

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    Originally posted by Stuart
    We have a combination department with two paid personnel on duty. For a reported structure fire, 1 guy will take a mini-pumper and 1 guy takes a 2,000 engine-tanker. We then hope the volunteers show up. We have no hydrants in town, only a bunch of dry hydrants scattered around town.
    Sounds like you guys are behind even before you leave the bay. I've gotta ask, though... What does the mini-pumper do for you on a structural response?

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    O.K. - you know me - I'm all for stirrin the pot (most of the time anyway).

    For all the Dept's out there (like mine) where your engineer/MPO/Whateveryacallhim is almost never standing at the pump panel anyway - why even have a pump panel ?

    Now I have never used or even seen first hand one of these panel-less rigs, but I have seen pictures and read articles till I can almost quote them (i.e. Fallon Churchill, NV & Rattlesnake FPD, CO), and the concept seems good.

    (Of course everything looks good on paper to a design engineer )

    So how about it - anyone have any experience with this type of set up ?

    Comments, thoughts, superstitions, anything ??
    Take Care - Stay Safe - God Bless
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    Our mini-pumper has been pretty useless for most fires (260 gallon with 500 gpm pump). Actually worse than useless, downright dangerous. Just enough water to get yourself into trouble.

    It will do 85 mph. It gets one guy there with 4 air paks and some handlines ready to tie into the big truck. It also carries a Hurst tool/extrication equipment and 1st response medical stuff.

    We are replacing the mini-pumper with a 1500 gpm, 500 gallon water, 75 gallon class A foam, CAFS rescue pumper this Spring. It will have an engine/pressure governor on it.

    Boy, I can't wait!!!

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    Seems to me that with a rear pump you still won't be able to see like you ought to be able to....and you would still be a target for anyone throwing objects...And you have the attack lines running around your feet and head, and this just does not seem like a good thing at all. With a top mount pump you can see all the way around the truck and there are no lines running around your feet and head....just seems to be a logical issue to me....IMHO.....but then the truck with no pump panel would be interesting...but how would it work??
    -Kris

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    Well, in my opinion the driver SHOULD be at the panel anytime the pump is in gear, not only for safety of the guys on the line but also to manage the pump. The new pumps have ceramic seals that can fail as low as 130 degrees, think about that, in Fla. it's already 85-90 degrees most of the time, then there is the heat from the truck exhaust, etc. It really doesn't take long to get to 130. I have told my drivers that there is a radio headset on the panel, put it on, that's your leash, if you run out of cord, you're doing something wrong. With the shortage of staffing it's easy for an aggressive person to leave the panel and start "helping". I think that is a bad idea, if the dept didn't want equipment destroyed or lost they would staff the truck.

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    We also train our operators to stay at the panel. Once in a while, they do leave it, but only for a few moments. As for side mount, rear mount, top mount, no mount? (never scene one of those) we have had side mounts as long as I can remember. Our other company had a top mount on one truck. In our area, we found unless the top mount was the first engine on the scene, the view of the fire went away since there are lots of trees in the area and they would block the view unless right in front. Second thing, number of injuries to operators running the side pump=0 number of injuries to operators running the top pump=6 (icy weather - falls getting up and down connecting, disconnecting, unkinking hoses). We have never had a read mount but are looking at that as an option for a future rescue style engine.

    I am far from qualified to tell anyone what kind of pump they should have in their firehouse. Look at your area, see what you deal with, look at the options and discuss the advantages. Try and get some demo's and park at places to see them in use.

    Good luck.
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