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  1. #1
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    Question Working poc/volunteer on your days off

    I'm looking for ff's from full-time departments that poc or volunteer on their days off. I'm interested in what their local thinks and if you were brought up on charges and the final outcome. I'm especially interested in the 60 some ff's from DC brought up on charges and union ff's from northern Illinois, although I will take input from anywhere this seems to be a hot topic.


  2. #2
    Forum Member FiremedicMike's Avatar
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    Well.. obviously the IAFF does not support this. Many firefighters in my area do this without too much problem. However, about 4 years ago a union firefighter was killed in a fire while working with his volunteer department. Initially the city he worked for was not going to pay anything. After a long legal fight, his family won benefits for him. I am unaware of what if anything the union paid for this.

    Following this incident, Columbus Fire put out a new SOP stating that no Columbus firefighters were to work part-time/volunteer in their off days, thus taking away their liability when it comes to payment.

    That being said, As far as I know, none of the other local union departments put out anything similar. My department is fully well aware that many of our guys are still working on their off days and hasn't taken a stance on it (most departments are reactionary in case you haven't figured that out yet)

    So I would say it would depend on your department.

    Sorry that wasn't much help, but maybe it gave you a starting point?

  3. #3
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    Truck 11,
    It is actually closer to 45 members who were put on charges under Res. 43, by Locals 1619 and 1664. We, Local 36, would not try our own members so we sent it back to the International. They sat on it for a while and then sent it to Willmington, Del. Local 1590 to do the Trial Board. The letters were sent out notifing our members of a trial and to pick the jury. I know this part to be a fact. Now heres were the " Black Hole " has developed. It has been over 2 1/2 years since Local 1619 made this motion and a trial has not happened. The rumor has it that Local 1590 told the International to stick-it we are not holding the trial, the time frame for the trial has passed and new charges need to be filed, and / or the IAFF wants the whole thing to " Just go away ".
    My personnal belief is that the International wants it to " Just Go Away ". My reasoning behind it is that were do we stop in the mud slinging. Do we only go after members who Volunteer in Combination systems ( L 1619 / L 1664 ) of do we go after hundereds if not thousands of members who volunteer in 100% Volunteer systems. If the later is the case we could make the IAFF's membership implode on it self.


  4. #4
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    I am a full time union firefighter and I volunteer whenever I have the time. My union takes the "don't ask, don't tell" attitude. I volunteer in a town that is ALL VOLUNTEER and I don't go mutual aid to surrounding towns that have union firefighters, I will not step on anybody's toes.
    "I have no ambition in this world but one, and that is to be a fireman. The position may, in the eyes of some, appear to be a lowly one; but we know the work which a fireman has to do believe that his is a noble calling."

    Edward F. Croker
    Chief 1899-1911
    Fire Dept. City of New York

    HOOK N' CAN of the I.A.C.O.J.

  5. #5
    Forum Member MIKEYLIKESIT's Avatar
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    Default Good Golly Miss Molly

    Oh boy.... I wonder what the firefighters of Washington D.C., Chicago, New York etc. would think if those cities would let off duty firefighters volunteer in THEIR departments? I can understand why a person would want to help if they lived in a rural, non-paid and especially non-union department. I personally like a little balance in my life and really have no interest in working as a firefighter on my days off. The town I live in, uses many "two-hatters" to work shifts. Because of this the town dosent have any fulltime firefighters. They certainly have enough call volume to support at least SOME career staff. They also have plenty of fulltime police officers. If you are a young person looking for a career in the fire service and can't find a job, you can thank my fellow career firefighters who enjoy two-hatting so much. There "side money" is much more important then doing the right thing. And no, I am not a scab carpenter, plumber, electrician etc... I must disagree that the IAFF would "implode"...There are new locals organizing every day. To the Brother from AFD Truck 11, Read " A FIERY STRUGGLE" and then think a little longer about what you do on your days off....
    Last edited by MIKEYLIKESIT; 01-13-2003 at 01:59 PM.

  6. #6
    MembersZone Subscriber Duffman's Avatar
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    Mikey, Truck11, hold on to your hats. I have heard that this issue may be coming to a head in our own back yard. Rumor, and only rumor at this point, has it that the AFFI may address this issue soon, at least where union guys work where combo departments are trying to organize.
    "We shouldn't be opening firehouses in Baghdad and closing them in New York City."

    IACOJ

  7. #7
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    The rumor has it that Local 1590 told the International to stick-it we are not holding the trial, the time frame for the trial has passed and new charges need to be filed, and / or the IAFF wants the whole thing to " Just go away ".

    L36MAN, we could only hope this will go away. It has caused too much tension out here in the counties. Personally, I could care less. However, if I were to take a job as a Firefighter, I would still Volunteer in my community. I have no desire to be a Career Ambo Jockey for P.G. County, so who cares? This has become a platform for one local president to push his personal agenda to rid the counties of the system he started in himself.

  8. #8
    Member pgvfd1's Avatar
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    The trial boards need to be held by February 17, 2003.

    Puffy Ė What happens when you are out on air and a call comes in for one of the towns where you donít respond to because they have union firefighters?

    Peace and stay safe!
    "When I was a child I spoke as a child, understood as a child, thought as a child, but when I became a man I put away childish things."

  9. #9
    Forum Member KeithA8's Avatar
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    Thumbs down

    Don't be a SCAB!!!
    IAFF member, Love this job! Remember the oath!

  10. #10
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    Pgvfd1, He probably jumps off and walks back to the station, that would be the good "Union" thing to do.

    KeithA8, Don't be an "A--Hole!"

  11. #11
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TillerMan25
    Pgvfd1, He probably jumps off and walks back to the station, that would be the good "Union" thing to do.


    I know Puffy. I am sure that at his volunteer house he has already
    made arrangements for that particular scenario. It's nice to "spark" once in a while.



    KeithA8, Don't be an "A--Hole!"
    TM25...take your own advice!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  12. #12
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    First of all I am not "SCABBING". There are no paid, poc, or part time firefighters in this town. Most of the mutual aid is for EMS and I don't go on the bus anyway so that eliminates that. I have stated before "IF THIS TOWN SHOULD HIRE EVEN 1 FIREFIGHTER, EVEN PART TIME I WILL BOW OUT GRACEFULLY !!" And in the RARE event of being on the engine or heavy rescue, I will call the on duty officer to meet me with the command vehicle and bring me back. I REFUSE to ****** in anyone's cornflakes. I like to think of myself as a man of integrity, I thank Captain Gonzo for backing me up!
    "I have no ambition in this world but one, and that is to be a fireman. The position may, in the eyes of some, appear to be a lowly one; but we know the work which a fireman has to do believe that his is a noble calling."

    Edward F. Croker
    Chief 1899-1911
    Fire Dept. City of New York

    HOOK N' CAN of the I.A.C.O.J.

  13. #13
    Forum Member dfd3dfd3's Avatar
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    It is my own personal belief that if a community is able and willing to pay for professional police protection then they should be able and willing to pay for some form of professional fire protection.
    And if union ffs are volunteering in a community that should be able to have some form of professional service then they are hurting both fellow firefighters and the community they are trying to help. There should be parity between police and fire professional employment expenditures or at least an attempt by the community.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Dalmatian90's Avatar
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    It is my own personal belief that if a community is able and willing to pay for professional police protection then they should be able and willing to pay for some form of professional fire protection.

    My town has two (contracted) State Troopers.

    The equivelant in career firefighters would what, cover an ambulance 40 hours a week? Handle the occassional car fire by themselves?

    There is major differences in the staffing needs of Police & Fire services, and many smaller communities can justify police departments with 1 or 2 or 3 officers on a shift long before they can justify equivelant full-time firefighters. And even when they do, we'd scream bloody murder at how can they run a three man engine company.

    Base pay parity with police is a good benchmark, but I don't think headcount parity necessarily is. 1 or 2 police officers can do a lot, 1 or 2 firefighters do what, keep the trucks shiny for the volunteers?

  15. #15
    Forum Member dfd3dfd3's Avatar
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    you can do a hell of alot with a 3-man engine company. With staffing levels most cities run with 3 man, although staffed with 4 due to sick time and time off. And I said communites should have parity with expenditure levels not necessarily manning levels. You could have a number of paid staffing oppurtunities: having a hired chief, POC, or manning a full time company that is augmented with volunteers for other rigs. You could provide pretty decent protection with a 24 hr staffed 3-man company for a small community. And im guessing you could prob do it for about the same money as paying for 3-4 cops.

  16. #16
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    If a town can pay for full timers then they should. The town that I work part time for is a small residential community, with little commercial and only one industrial building. So the budget comes from residential. The town has some full time firefighters a contracted ambulance and the rest of the engine is paid on call / part time. Without the part time / paid on call staff even simple calls would require mutual aid, such a one way agreement would not work well. Our paid on call firefighters go change of quarters while the full timers protect the town. If it wasn't for the POC's the service provided to the community would be diminished.

    Mutual aid was never ment to be a replacement for the department's own resources. Without the POC / part timers that is what you would have.

    And while on the topic of "scabs" how many of your brothers build houses, do plumbing, electrical work, or work as janitors. All of those positions are taking work away from Union workers. I guess we should just live off of our full time FD pay and stay home on our off days. I guess we could work for McDonalds, or Wendy's I don't think the fry cooks have a union.

    Is it wrong to go to work for Chicago when they struck, YES, and that is what the union is for. If Naperville, Arlington Heights, Addison, Niles, or any other all full time department started a part time program instead of paying overtime or replacing retired guys, then their is no way I'd work for them part time.

    Don't hurt the town or residents for having part timers if they can't pay full time guys.

  17. #17
    MembersZone Subscriber Duffman's Avatar
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    Default Here it Comes

    And while on the topic of "scabs" how many of your brothers build houses, do plumbing, electrical work, or work as janitors.
    I have the hard core union answer to that question. Firefighting is a trade as well. When carpenters, plumbers, electricians, and janitors stop "scabbing" as firefighters, firefighters will stop "scabbing" in those trades. None of the union members in these trades that I know will "scab" in their own trade, but other trades?



    posted by dfd3dfd3
    It is my own personal belief that if a community is able and willing to pay for professional police protection then they should be able and willing to pay for some form of professional fire protection.
    It will only happen when and if the federal government kicks in money to the same degree they do for law enforcement
    "We shouldn't be opening firehouses in Baghdad and closing them in New York City."

    IACOJ

  18. #18
    Forum Member MIKEYLIKESIT's Avatar
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    Well I dont work as a "scab" carpeneter, electrician, plumber OR firefighter..Forgive me if I have a bitter taste, but our City just hired 3 part timers to alleviate overtime. One guy had a whole list of departments he has been on. Great catch for us. NOT!

  19. #19
    MembersZone Subscriber Duffman's Avatar
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    For the record I don't work a second job either. Mikey, sorry to hear about your lost overtime.
    "We shouldn't be opening firehouses in Baghdad and closing them in New York City."

    IACOJ

  20. #20
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    Cool

    Well if you are going to be a true union man then you would not work any job that is represented by a union somewhere in the country right or wrong???? I do think it is wrong to work for a dept that could afford full time firefighters. Lets see according to NFPA1710 and the IAFF for a 2000 sq ft house with one room on fire that would be a min. manning of 17. How do I know this I am presently working on making our city give us more than 2 man companys that would be a Capt.& a driver guess who gets to go in the house by himself if there is a rescue. I do not think you can staff even 1 pumper full time for the same as 3-4 cops. If you are some one is not getting paid much.
    GFIRE

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