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  1. #121
    55 Years & Still Rolling hwoods's Avatar
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    Cool 99%

    OK... TM25 - All but about 6 Organizations in the ENTIRE STATE belong to the Maryland State Firemen's Association. Although not members, They do participate in MFIRS and (as far as I know) all other state programs. They simply have some differences with the MSFA over a few policy issues and do not wish to belong to an organization that they do not see as working with them. Florida, on the other hand, looks like a different thing altogether. Someone said Fla. has a Vol. Association, and if so, they need to get busy and recruit those who do not belong already. The union wouldn't miss an opportunity to organize a paid station, the volunteers shouldn't either. (and, No, that reserve rag..oops, reserve truck, was never assigned to 18. the current TW18and BX18 are the only county suppression units that we ever had) See ya on the big one.. Stay Safe....
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
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    Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

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  2. #122
    District Chief distchief60b's Avatar
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    Ladycapn...you are right. If someone were to coordinate things then we may take a step forward.

    However, HWOODS and George hit it on the head..... $$$$, lack of understanding the Pro Board System (or ignoring the sytem) and "good Ole Boys" are 99% of the problem.

    If there is a volunteer fire association I have not heard of it and I am a volunteer assistant chief. Our county is going to attempt to provide the training but then again there are only 3 volunteer departments in my county (East, West, Central) and most probably the numbers are about 65-80 volunteers. The rest are career stations.

    I can not even teach at the County Academy because I am "not qualified" to take the test to be an instructor, even though I possess and Instructor IV Certification in accordance with NFPA Standards that includes Educational Methodology, and was an Adjunct Instructor for the Department of Fire Programs in Virginia. I am sure the county would pay to send me to the Fire College in Ocala (65 miles) but how do I get the time off from my two (2) jobs? Weekend classes and night classes of this nature are far and few between.

    I spoke to someone today who has looked into the Fire Academy Courses at the three (3) sites nearest to me and they are saying they are full until this time next year and there is a waiting list. Most of the folks in these academies are in search of career jobs. Very few of them are currently volunteers.

    I am all for the training and betterment of service delivery. The more we train the better we get. But, to be able to train, you have to have traininig available and accessible to everyone. Most training classes you see offered are during the day and most will follow a certain work Shift. Training firefighters in Florida is all about money in my opinion. I know one company that will teach classes that are sanctioned by the state, but require a minimum of 8 people @ $100.00 each not including books and materials....(not a big deal right?)...Well they had a 40 hour class scheduled for a career department and only 6 people enrolled. The only way they would teach the class was if someone made up the $200.00 difference. The students wanted the class bad enough that they split it 6 way. Some would say...well..just over $30.00 each...not bad. Add in the cost of materials and someone is making a big amount of money especially when none of the 10 hour days lasted more than 7.
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
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    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  3. #123
    District Chief distchief60b's Avatar
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    Post Follow Up Story

    CHIEFLAND CITIZEN

    Volunteer fire departments face hurdles

    BY KEN DOUGHERTY
    New legislation regarding training and proficiency has already diminished the ranks of volunteer firefighters and could make recruiting difficult in the future, according to the local fire chief.

    Billy Carrecia, fire chief of Chiefland, said he has already lost two volunteers over a state law requiring more than 160 hours of training to be certified as Firefighter 1.

    The difficulty lies in the fact that under the new state law, Firefighter 1 is the minimum level of training that will be accepted by the state, the chief said.

    "It's really hard for volunteers to attend that much training. They call it the 160-hour course but I've never been able to complete it in less than 220 hours. I've been a certified instructor for eight years and I can't figure out how they can expect to get that training done in 160 hours," the chief said.

    The required education, he said, will take a lot of time for volunteers to complete.

    "All the volunteers want to do is help people. They have 40-hour a week jobs and families. I don't think I'll lose any more volunteers, but it will make it very difficult in the future to recruit new members.

    "It will take a lot of dedication and I hope people will be willing to do it," Carrecia said.

    Dave Casey, Bureau Chief for the State Fire Marshal's Bureau of Fire Standards and Training, said at a special meeting Monday night that the program to implement the new law is still being developed.

    The new law requires state fire officials to collect training records for analyses about the amount of training volunteers have received, Casey said.

    There are many firefighters who have been training and putting out fires for years, have all of the skills required by the state but can't document that training, he noted, and the state fire college is seeking ways to substitute training with skill demonstrations to certified instructors.

    He said there remain some difficulties to be worked out but it is likely the program will be ready within about six months.

    The state training director said that the staff at the fire college is looking for ways, such as demonstrated proficiency tests, to avoid taking the entire course.

    He noted that special testing would be available only for existing firefighters, however, and not new volunteers entering a department.

    It also requires local departments to use volunteers only to the degree that their training makes them proficient and requires them to develop safety committees under state guidelines, report firefighter injuries, fatalities and significant events that could be termed "near accidents."

    "If there was a near accident and training kept people from getting hurt, that is good. If it was just an accident that no one was hurt, you may want to take a look at it," Casey told the firefighters and county commissioners.

    Casey said the public meeting was scheduled to dispel erroneous information and rumors concerning Florida Statute 633.801 that is legislation passed last year to better protect firefighters' health and safety.

    The legislation calls for implementation of new rules and standards to that end, he said, but some rumors have volunteer firefighters concerned, he explained.

    The new law does not ban volunteer firefighters, previous training does indeed count toward certification of firefighters, and the new legislation was not done secretly.

    The state bureau chief said that a half-dozen public hearings were held and that input into the proposed programs came from many sources including many volunteer fire departments.

    Carrecia said his department has been using state Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) standards for about the past four years so it presents no great difficulties to keep his trained volunteers qualified.

    The Chiefland fire chief said that he has had the best success with a program of three weeks of class, one week off, another three weeks of class, another week off, then the final four weeks of class work.

    "We've had nearly a 100 percent pass rate on the state exam," he said.
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  4. #124
    Forum Member Smoke20286's Avatar
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    I can see how this would be an extreme hardship on some of the small rural Depts. As these people are expected to give up their own time and energy to participate in these programs I feel it is unfair for small comunities to not receive assistance from the state that is imposing it upon them. Of course the more training the better.

  5. #125
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    Default 160hr Training

    Many small rural VFDs have not even heard about this 160-hour training requirement. Florida State Fire Marshall's office doesn't even knows how many VFDs are in the State -- a sad situation -- the Depts which do not have an ISO rating have NO contact with that office. The locals realized a need and voluntarily banded together and purchased an old "red" firetruck and parked it in someone's yard/barn and responded to emergencies in their neighborhood. VOLUNTEERS!(Unpaid worker; one who enters into or performs of his own free will. Webster's Pocket Dictionary, New Rev Ed).

    The meetings to discuss the new 160-hr training were not well advertised. I did not know about the NW-FL meeting that had been held in DeFuniak Springs recently ... until mentioned by the Guest Speaker at our Countywide FF Assn Dinner. I have no qualms with Training - we all need it - the problem is Time, Money, and Location. Volunteers in our area who are holding down at least 1 full-time job (and probably another part-time job - to make ends meet) don't have any extra time to meet these requirements.

    When the Firehouse roof leaks and the Engine needs new tires and the SCBAs are pressure-demand and ?? -- which one is #1 on your priority list?
    Ohhhhhhhh wellllllll ... RANT mode => OFF. Stay safe! Remember Red Lights are "Courtesy Lights" and we ain't got no privileges!
    Last edited by 5pts384; 02-19-2003 at 11:09 PM.

  6. #126
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    Cool Ok enough SMOKE about this

    Hey Folks just a little note from a 47 year old Fire Chief in FL who has people in the FF1 course and has taken it himself as a refresher and certified FF 1.

    1. This training requirement has been on the books for over 4 years.< IT'S NOT NEW!!!

    2. The way this requirement is written is as follows: If your enrolled, in school, or awating testing it is considered a good faith effort to meet the requirement no fines will be issued.

    3. FF 1 here is the same or better than FF 2 in IL. I was a FF3 W/hazmat tech. in Indiana. Big deal it's not recognized here. This state will not take cert's from other states. You can challenge the State test but you will still test and if you fail FF 2 two times you go back to school period end of story.

    4. These bleeding hearts in your news letter Stan had the chance to take thier training reports to the State Fire Collage and get grandfathered in but thats over as of 6/1/2006.

    5. There are 3 ways to get FF 1 certification which the paper left out by the way.

    1. Formal training at the state fire collage or sub campus.
    2. Training from a state certified instructor I or II
    3. Training signed off by the County Fire or department training officer as long as he is certified FF 1 with instructor 1 or higher and challange the State test.

    Once you are cleared to test by the state fire collage you can take the FF 1 test 500 times till you pass. It's $35 every other test if you fail. I personaly know people who have taken up to 5 times to pass its not an easy test.

    You see anyone who wants to be certified can get certified with the right paperwork. Oh and as of last week there are 5,065 instructor 1's in the northwest part of the state and you have to have FF1 or higher to get inst.1 if that was the next rebuke.

    And by the way yes I was a paid firefighter for 9 years I believe in "formal" training without it you will get caos and freelancing on the fireground and your informal training has no quality control. Handing someone turnout gear and making them climb a ladder does not make them a firefighter. Only carefull proper training makes a true firefighter.

    Also if my fat old puddgy butt can make it through standards they can too. STOP the whining go through it! Many courses are put on by instructors through out the panhandle FREE OF CHARGE!! There is one going on in Bay county right now. So you see Stan the paper is miss leading you into believeing the sky is falling. NOT GONNA HAPPEN!!!

    Learn not to burn!
    Stay Safe
    Chuck

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by PA Volunteer View Post
    Hey y'all ... come on up to Pennsylvania!!! Up here, you don't need to know your *** from a hole in the ground to be able to fight fire. As far as I know, there is no rule, anywhere, that mandates what, if any, training that an adult must have to fight fire. Dandy, ain't it? It is also extremely ignorant. It is up to each individual department to require training for its members. When we go to mutual aid calls, I don't know if the guy on the back up line, or the guy on the roof with me has FF XIVMC or if his mom just dropped him off at the station to pick up his first set of gear. It would be nice if you knew that everyone had at least a certain level of training.

    FF's must be trained. FFI & II is certainly a reasonable level. If you have experience, challenge the tests. If you pass, great. If you don't, get ready to go to class.

    How are the paid guys going to take the volunteers seriously if they don't know that they have a certain standard of training?

    Bravo, Florida - let's not just dump this on them though. Hopefully, it will be implemented in a safe and effective manner.

    Oh, and where was the IAFF mentioned?

    Stay Safe
    Just to clarify....Pennsylvania requires all emergency responders to have NIMS and Hazardous materials Awareness / Operations. However, I see where you were coming from on this post. PA has no mandatory training for actual fire supression or rescue activities!! However, I do agree with what Florida is doing. I think it is a great idea. In this day and age the clearing out of the bar room when the alarm sounds for everyone to go upstairs and jump the rig are over. I would personally agree with making FF 1 a mandatory prerequisite for any body that wants to ride the rigs. In PA, FF 2 is nothing more than a test!! So, i dont feel it be necessary. FF 1 is also a test but in recent years they have made a prerequisite of Essentials of Firefighting, Structural burn, Haz Mat Operations, First Aid and CPR just to take the test. FF 2 is just another fancy certificate. Personally i think all firefighters in PA should have...FF 1, PA DOH Vehicle Rescue Technician, EMT or possibly just first responder to be able to even respond on the rig to a scene! Too many people are joining the fire service these days for the wrong reasons and dont want to take the time to learn or train. But yet they want to make sure all their buddies see them in their fancy gear at a scene. Or they take their gear home to impress their girlfriends. And i am sure they tell many many stories about all the fires they have been in. LOL....Unreal. So, what i am trying to say is that by making these prerequisites you will learn real quickly who is doing this becasue they want to and absolutely enjoy it!!

  8. #128
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    Train Like Your Life Depends On It - Because It Does!

  9. #129
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    Chuck you live in Bay county, the travel time and miles is short. There are a lot of Vol FFs that have 1 or more jobs. (NW FL is not known for high pay).
    Daytime FFs work at night, nighttime FFs work days, no vacations in this area. Granted our Vol FFs need training but if you live in a rural area do you need to know high rise fire fighting? We have no hydrants in our area do we need to know how a hydrent is filled, how about just saying a hydrent gives us water and open it all the way. The 220 hr course with first responder a preres-- that's 240 hrs in 1983 FF2 took 280 hrs. Fat or slim, it takes a lot of time that may not be available.

    Myron FF1, instructor1
    Stay Safe ~ The Dragon Still Bites!

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chief9chuck View Post
    Hey Folks just a little note from a 47 year old Fire Chief in FL who has people in the FF1 course and has taken it himself as a refresher and certified FF 1.

    1. This training requirement has been on the books for over 4 years.< IT'S NOT NEW!!!
    Chief--just a note but this post has been on the boards for 4 yrs...it's not new either.
    My opinions might coincide with someone of importance's POV... I wouldn't know, since I never bothered to ask. My policy is: "Don't ask, don't care."

    IACOJ--West Coast PITA

  11. #131
    MembersZone Subscriber dmleblanc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chief9chuck View Post
    1. This training requirement has been on the books for over 4 years.< IT'S NOT NEW!!!
    Er, I hate to be the one to point this out, but look at the dates of the original posts on this subject....4 years ago. So at the time this discussion took place it WAS a new requirement. Where did you dig this thread up?
    Chief Dwayne LeBlanc
    Paincourtville Volunteer Fire Department
    Paincourtville, LA

    "I have a dream. It's not a big dream, it's just a little dream. My dream — and I hope you don't find this too crazy — is that I would like the people of this community to feel that if, God forbid, there were a fire, calling the fire department would actually be a wise thing to do. You can't have people, if their houses are burning down, saying, 'Whatever you do, don't call the fire department!' That would be bad."
    — C.D. Bales, "Roxanne"

  12. #132
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    Training decisions should be up to the local fire department based on the type of training they need, the resources available for training and the cost.
    I have avocated a modular training system where the locals can teach what applies to thier area as a basic training program. There is no need for a small, rural department to be trainied on tools and equipment they will never purchase in occupancies and situations they will never encounter. Training time for a volunteer is vaulable.. don't waste it. In fact there are situations that a rural firefighter is likely to face that are not even discussed in FF1. Add them as modules since that is information they will actually need and use.

    If a rural firefighter wishes to take the whole course for whatever reason, that's great. That should be encoraged and rewarded but lets be realistic about the time available. Most volunteers will not have the time to meet this requirement, and the reality is that fire protection will suffer, not improve because of it. Most departments don't have the money to pay the fines as they can brely afford gas, a few sets of turnouts now and then and a new tool every once in awhile. These folks, who will be lost because of the requirements, cannot be replaced by paid people because the money is simply not there, unless the state(s), who made this, and similar training requirements has a whole wad of cash stashed away someplace to hire folks for these communties. It simply is not realistic or practical to require this volune of training, especially in areas where the training is distant, infrequent, and inflexible.

    Louisiana has the same type of situation described as Florida. I have a whole pile of certs from other states that mean nothing here, unless I want to pony up some cash and challenge the test, or in some cases, take the time to retake the same course. It's really a ridiculous situation.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by danzig
    PA has no mandatory training for actual fire supression or rescue activities!!
    How true. Sad, but very true.

    Quote Originally Posted by danzig
    In this day and age the clearing out of the bar room when the alarm sounds for everyone to go upstairs and jump the rig are over.
    Were it that this were true...but unfortunately there are many places around the state where it goes on just like it did 50 years ago...

    Quote Originally Posted by danzig
    FF 1 is also a test but in recent years they have made a prerequisite of Essentials of Firefighting, Structural burn, Haz Mat Operations, First Aid and CPR just to take the test..
    Wrong. The prerequisites for challenging the FF-I test in PA are:

    - HazMat Awareness
    - a 16-hour SFA Local Level Structural Burn Certificate OR Structural burn as the integrated exercise at the end of an Essential Class PROVIDED that you challenge the test at the same site you took the Essentials OR completion of an accredited academy program (like the one run at HACC)
    - the apropriate CPR and First Aid cards

    There is absolutely no reason you can't walk up and challenge FF-I just like you can challenge FF-II, as long as you have these three prerequisites covered. I understand they are revising the applications and standards somewhat to account for the new Delmar program, but I haven't seen the paperwork yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by danzig
    Personally i think all firefighters in PA should have...FF 1, PA DOH Vehicle Rescue Technician, EMT or possibly just first responder to be able to even respond on the rig to a scene!
    I agree there should be a standard, but completion of the 166-hour Delmar program, along with a live burn, followed by successful challenge of the FF-I test would be sufficient for interior qualification, and there should be some program available for "support" personnel who do not intend to be interior qualified (probably the first three Delmar modules and a test that would need to be developed). VRT is completely unnecessary for companies that farm their vehicle rescue out on automatic mutual aid agreements, like we do. I can see an individual jurisdiction requiring it if vehicle rescue is one of their specialties, but anyone else can get their job done effectively with nothing more than VR-Operations level. I'd much rather see a statewide HazMat Operations minimum standard than VRT. EMT or First Responder is a nice to have, but also completely unecessary in areas such as mine where EMS is provided by paid squads separate from the fire service. I'm all for standards, but let's make the statewide standards those that are needed by everyone, and leave the specialized requirements to the local level.

    Back to the original point of the thread...I don't see what Florida is doing as being out of line for volunteers by itself. Most companies in my area are making their recruits go through the 166-hour Delmar now anyway...I've got five guys in different stages of it as I type this. The companies that aren't requiring this mostly are of the "roll out of the bar and onto the trucks" type - and those companies simply need to be stripped of their first due districts by their municipalities in the greater interest of public safety. My statement on Florida assumes, of course, that there is adequate access to the program and a sufficient phase-in period to allow everyone to get up to standard with a good faith effort. I'd like to see the same thing done here...
    Last edited by bobsnyder; 02-02-2007 at 05:03 PM.

  14. #134
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    Default How the IAFF is involved in the Escambia County Florida Fiasco

    "If your house catches fire, will Escambia County volunteer firefighters save your house? Save you?

    Don't count on it, reports the Escambia County Professional Firefighters Union.

    The union, which is made up of the county's approximately 62 full-time, paid firefighters, is charging that volunteer firefighters and their departments are stealing money from taxpayers, are lacking the necessary training to provide county residents adequate fire protection and are creating a hostile and unsafe working environment for full-time firefighters"


    http://www.inweekly.net/article.asp?artID=4379

    Everyone has been asking how the IAFF was in this, look at the article and IAFF Local 4131 (http://www.iaffl4131.org/) then check out www.ricksblog.biz for further commentary. You may have to go back a few days to find it.
    Last edited by JOHNWAAS; 04-19-2007 at 04:17 PM.

  15. #135
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    The "Lazarus" effect here on FH is amazing.. old threads reappear from the dead, newcomers never check the dates and then they carry on and on as if the thread was started a minute ago. In some cases, the topic and the reason for the thread is moot..
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    I dont have a problem with requiring more training. My complaint is states need to start recognizing courses not as a whole, but as the parts. I was certified in SC for interior attack. Resulted in about 116 hours of training. The only requirement to recieve FFI ,after this traning, was to complete a hazmat awareness and vehicle extrication course, then to transition to your FFII you needed the Hazmat ops and then a pump operators class. So now that I moved to ohio, why cant they recognize the training as more than just 116 hours. Ohio did not allow me to challange the FFI test because I was short by 4 hours. They only allowed me to challange the 36 hour Vol FF test. The problem as I see it is in FFI they go over the same basics of hose rolling and different streams and such that they do in the 36 hour class. Accounting for thr full 120 hours. Why cant the state view other states training, and see the items you were trained on, and then require you to take classes that you need training in still ie hazmat and so forth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MIKEYLIKESIT View Post
    Well Lt. Turk I AM obviously a paid Firefighter. However, I became a certified Firefighter II when I WAS A VOLUNTEER.... I think if you asked most volunteers on here, they would agree that being a Firefighter II is not asking too much. In Illinois there is no such thing as a Firefighter I anymore. I would bet that most of my volunteer Brother and Sister Firefighters would like to think they are smart enough to pass Firefighter II....Just like a paid Firefighter.
    firefighterII isnt askin to much its the least a man/women needs to enter a burnin structure, basically what im sayin is if i was to go in on a search i would rather go in with a fire 1-2 trained vs. 36 hour basic train individuals i agree with ya mikey/

  18. #138
    Permanently Removed CALFFBOU's Avatar
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    Wow, a thread thats about 5 years old. Can anyone explain the outcome on this one?

    And....Volunteer Firefighters should be held to the same standard as Reserve Poilce Officers.

  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by CALFFBOU View Post
    And....Volunteer Firefighters should be held to the same standard as Reserve Poilce Officers.
    COOL, give me a gun and a breath-a-lyzer!
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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    How do you even find threads this old?

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