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  1. #21
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    Traffic management often suffers simply 'cause there's not enough bodies to go around. But when you have the manpower to do it, good traffic management is sometimes better then simply saying no.
    Good point.

    Traffic management is a law enforcement function. That said, a trafic management plan (key word "plan") is NOT developed on the side of the road at 0300 hours. Start working with law enforcement today to develop this plan. You might also find OEM and the Dept. of Transp. (or State Hwy. Dept. or whatever they call it near you) will be a major asset as well.


  2. #22
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    Traffic management is a law enforcement function.
    This is not entirly true. While it is the job of law enforcement to control traffic, they may not be at the scene when you arrive or may not have the man power to handle it. Our saftey is number one, we must protect ourselves. The IC should address traffic control before the crews begin to work.

    If you are short on manpower use a Cheif car or even a Rig to block the lane of traffic. Probies and olders members should be included on crews responding to MVA's and use to controll traffic. In my opinion the assignment of traffic control is as important as the assignment to the tool. Every officer should be encourged to consider traffic control assignments as part of their size up.

    We are fortunate that we have many older members that act as our Fire Police. They have taken classes and have been sworn in by a judge as Fire Police. There unit rolls with ours and they set up traffic control upon arrival at all calls. They work with the Police sector car and actually allow the police to use less units for minor accidents.

    In addition, the members assigned to traffic control should be provided and made to wear the proper equipment. Bright and clearly mark vests or jackets, flashlight, cones, flags, etc. If you do not use them you are incresing the danger to these members and may cause confusion to less aware drivers.

    Stay Safe
    B Holmes

  3. #23
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Fire Police go to Fire Police school and learn their duties along with traffic control. Does anyone train "Probies" and/or "Juniors" in traffic control? Or do we simply send them out as "sacrifical lambs" and hope they don't get hit?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  4. #24
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    Great point Bones. We should never send anyone to do a job with the proper training. While the probie may be assignedto traffice what do you think he is really watching? While I do not think you need to drill on traffic control monthly, there are certain points that should be taught. And once again DO NOT control traffic with out the proper equipment!
    B Holmes

  5. #25
    Senior Member Dalmatian90's Avatar
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    It's actually one of the few skills taught during our Probationary Training.

    Most of the rest is department regulations, organization, communications, & equipment location.

    Still, you don't let them alone in traffic for awhile!

  6. #26
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    This is not entirly true.
    Yes it is, at least in NJ.

    The legal responsibility for the control of traffic on the roadway rests with law enforcement. That said, if you are there first, you do what has to be done, as long as your people are properly trained and equipped to do the job correctly. However, once LE is on the scene, the responsibility is theirs. If they elect to allow the FP to assist, that is their perogative.

    Bones, I don't know about Fire Police down there, but up here, the main requirements to get in are to be at least 70 years old and to be nasty as a junkyard dog. They don't listen and only do the job they have been assigned until they don't feel like doing it anymore.

    One of them tried to physically block me from getting into a scene (on duty) one night. He was surprised when he was about 2 seconds away from being arrested.

  7. #27
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    I am surprised you did not lock him up George. Always the cops first, fireman second. I would rather have the 70 year old juckyard dog watching my back than a cop(nothing against the police, just want one of ours there). The 70 year old is probably the guy next to me's father or grandfather and has been in the fire service for decades. In many cases the fire police have a better understanding of what we are doing and require less direction form the IC. We are fortunate here in NY we have cops that would rather work with us and appreiciate our fire police. None have ever looked to lock up a fireman doing traffic control nor have I ever heard them telling us about there legal obligations to handle traffic control. If in NJ it is the "legal obligation of the police to control traffic on the roadway" why was the 70 year old there to block you in the first place? Why weren't the police fufilling there legal obligation? Why did you go past him and not relive him of his post?

    Not looking for a fight here George, but it always seems that if it is not how you do it, it is wrong. Your point about the traffic planning is well taken and actually discussed in my prior post. Our fire police, albeit 55-75 years old, are trained. They drill and have had planning meetings with the local police and code enforcment agencies. All of our Dept. drills include them and their actions are critiqued just as the FF's.

    Maybe we are unique, or maybe that's not how it is done in NJ. That does not mean that the fire police should be dismissed so fast, nor that we should depend on the police to protect us. My post offers some suggestions for others to veiw, maybe they will work for some, maybe not. Your post, as usual tells us how wrong we are.

    Let me ask you this George who's call is it in NJ to close down the roads, police or fire chief?
    B Holmes

  8. #28
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    Whoa, Pardners.

    When I started this thread, I was looking for ideas from others that I could sift through and maybe then apply the good ideas that I saw and apply them to my areas' needs. No one way is the absolute right way in all situations, so there is no need to flame out about it here.

    I liked the idea about shutting down the roads, and I did not add that we are blessed here with most roads being set up on one or two mile grids, and about five mile grids that could handle larger vehicles. If need be, we could shut down a road for hours and still move traffic. However, we also do not sit on our asses here - except while waiting for the coroner to arrive (I still wonder why he has not gotten deputy coroners around the county like our old coroner had). We have pretty good cooperation with the police, state troopers, county mounties, ambulance crews and even tow truck drivers. Because of that, we usually can get a scene cleared in a minimum amount of time, even with a fatal involved. Closing the roads here would be fine for us.

    However, like i said, it is not everybody's cup of tea. No need for arguments, gentlemen.

    The Doc, having delivered his prescription of calm down pills to you all, is out now.

  9. #29
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    However, like i said, it is not everybody's cup of tea. No need for arguments, gentlemen.
    Don't worry, Doc. I am not about to waste an argument with some Jr. who got loose on the HS computer.

    Doc, I wish that NJ had the grid system you are talking about. It would help matters a great deal. With the way the roads are built here, you have two problems. First, when you reroute, you just push the problem someplace else. Second, everybody knows a shortcut. You end up having problems in residential neighborhoods, industrial parks, etc. as people try to drive around the problem.

    As a solution, the NJ DOT has a program that very municipalities have taken advantage of. They will work with a municipality to develop a strategic traffic management plan that preplans detours routes in the event of a road closing. Morristown, NJ has developed this plan and can have it implemented in a relatively short amount of time. MPD does the initial work, then DOT brings them the traffic management equipment that they need (message boards, cones, lights, etc.) to make the plan work. It doesn't totally eliminate the above problems, but it sure helps.

    Also, as part of the County OEM plan, there is an annex that would deal with major traffic problems. This is also a good resource to be familiar with BEFORE the incident occurs.

  10. #30
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    main requirements to get in are to be at least 70 years old and to be nasty as a junkyard dog.
    Obviously, you must have attended one of the county fire police meetings...boy, that always makes me feel young. We are lucky to have a very active group in my town that is way under 70. Most of them wanted nothing to do with being inside a fire, so FP worked out well for them.

    As for the DOT traffic plans, we actually used it to a degree this past weekend. We had NJDOT employees and trucks blocking off lanes of traffic during a fire for us. They even brought out salt trucks to hit the road due to hose runoffs. Did a fantastic job and gave us a few less things to have to worry about. NJ Transit and their trains....that's another story.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  11. #31
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    George I will take the "I am not about to waste an argument with some Jr. who got loose on the HS computer. " as you knowing you might have been wrong here. We both know from our prior postings that I am not a Jr. At least you finally posted a productive post, rather than one telling us how wrong anyone outside of NJ is.
    B Holmes

  12. #32
    Senior Member Dalmatian90's Avatar
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    Preplanning Traffic is a good idea!

    One of our major hazards is a four day fair held in our town each year, and the "traffic plan" is set up to dump people away in ways they don't impede mutual aid units coming in, and they don't have to cross multi-thousand foot laid lines. For some of the parking lots, that means you don't get out. For everyone trying to get in, it means you have a perimeter staffed with Fire Police & State Troopers together keeping you out.

    One thing we're fortunate for in Connecticut is state law that makes the Fire Chief very strong, so there's no arguments between Police & Fire jurisdicition.

    Sec. 7-313e. Authority of fire officer during emergency.
    ...have the authority to: (a) Control and direct emergency activities at such scene; (b) order any person to leave any building or place in the vicinity of such fire for the purpose of protecting such person from injury; (c) blockade any public highway, street, or private right-of-way temporarily while at such scene;...

  13. #33
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    Originally posted by bkholmes
    George I will take the "I am not about to waste an argument with some Jr. who got loose on the HS computer. " as you knowing you might have been wrong here. We both know from our prior postings that I am not a Jr. At least you finally posted a productive post, rather than one telling us how wrong anyone outside of NJ is.
    That's it, Jr. You got me. You are right. I am wrong. You wanna be right, you're right.

    BTW, NJ is the single-most screwed up state in the Union. Most people outside NJ do things better than we do.

  14. #34
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    Typical George, grow up.
    B Holmes

  15. #35
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    NOW I remember you. I was right before. You ain't worth getting TOS'd over. So I'll let this go.

  16. #36
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    How big of you. Too bad for such a smart man you have such a poor attitude. That's all from me.
    B Holmes

  17. #37
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    Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI

    I wouldn't consider the patient wreckage, would you?
    I may be unforgivably cynical, but sometimes that depends on the patient!

    Our dept pretty much mirrors what everybody else seems to do. After the police give the OK, we will pile big debris into the involved cars. We may put Speedy-Dry on major fluid spills before they have a chance to run off into storm drains or onto the berm.

    We did have an auto vs pedestrian last summer (thankfully I missed this one)which resulted in having a good bit of pedestrian generated "organic matter"-ahem-left behind after the victim was removed and the police cleared the scene. People in our dept were pretty torn up by it, as they ended up having to clean it up and wash it down. There did not seem to be anybody else to turn to, like those guys in the city who clean up crime scenes. The biohazard alone is an issue, nevermind the "human dignity" considerations. I guess it goes to show you that when there is a job NO ONE wants to do, we do it.

  18. #38
    55 Years & Still Rolling hwoods's Avatar
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    Talking NJ Transit???? Trains??? ....

    Bones! Is there a story lurking out there? NJ Transit.... Hmmm..... I have spent enough time in locomotive cabs to know that you absolutely will not detour the 5:15 to Weehauken down a side street..... Stay Safe....
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
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  19. #39
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    Yes Chief, we are almost at the end of the line and during a recent fire, had 2 5" lines across the tracks for supply. At the time, shutting them down was not very detrimental as the building was already lost, but boy, those NJ Transit guys can get pushy! We have tried for years to have them run pipes or simply dig trenches under the tracks for us, but to no avail.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  20. #40
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    Default NJ Roads

    George:
    Doc, I wish that NJ had the grid system you are talking about. It would help matters a great deal.
    (laughing rant mode on!!)
    No Kidding George, I drive into Bergen county every day for work, I have to find some of those "alternate routes" you say everyone has!!! It would help if NJ would let you make a left hand turn!! (laughing rant mode off!!)

    We generally leave the scene for the tow truck operator to clean up, including any speedy dri we put down. When there is an investigation, we are gone long before the police are done. As far as closing the road, we work closely with the PD in the towns we operate in, we usually handle traffic control until they arrive. They are wonderful in making sure we don't get smashed!
    9/11/01 Never forget Never forgive

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