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  1. #21
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    Going back to the original post from Tanner, I get the impression that there is some negativity towards members of unions who volunteer in the Fire Service and that these union members are "not" all neccesarily from the same employer but just different unions. Aside from the arguement that these volunteers are taking away from the possibility of additional employment within the career ranks ( and increased membership for the IAFF)why is it that people have their hackles up if a person wishes to become a volunteer Fire Fighter and if he belongs to another union so what. I respect the right to argue for more career positions, but to use the "s" word is harsh. It's not like members of the IAFF don't themselves take on second jobs for additional money or anything.


  2. #22
    Forum Member Smoke20286's Avatar
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    Mesha47 said:
    "Aside from the arguement that these volunteers are taking away from the possibility of additional employment within the career ranks ( and increased membership for the IAFF"

    Why would we leave that aside, as it is the central part of the argument? How is the S word harsh? If you are an electrician, working for an electrical company and a unionized plumber suddenly shows up, volunteering to do work for your company for free,or even less money then you are earning, is that not a definition of a scab?
    Other unionized workers have entered his workplace and are being used by managment to subvert the collective bargaining process.

  3. #23
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    Mesha47,... I don't know who you are or what you do but if the shoe was on the other foot and it involved your job status, then I would say that you would be upset. Wouldn't you think that as a fellow brother/sister that while collective bargaining is in progress that the other brothers/sisters would step down until the process is complete.
    Think about it.

  4. #24
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    Actually, my definition of a scab is one who crosses a picket line, during a labour dispute to peform the work of those who are legally on strike and since by law fire fighters are not allowed to stike, it poses to be a somewhat different scenario, in my view. Would I be upset if this was happening to me? Being only a volunteer, but a member of a large international union, there is no doubt that I would feel a bit "touched", but then this is the private sector and I have to play by different rules. What I am talking about here is the remote possibility of future employment within the career ranks, not whether or not there is a degradation of service to people of the community
    Secondly, it was asked if I thought that all these volunteers should step down until this negotiations are complete. To this I say absolutely not. Would you be willing to put your community at more risk than what you believe it is already at risk for now?
    I believe the proper way is that the elected offcials of your community need to hear from the people; petitions, rallies and attending council meetings are the ways to get the message across, but not withdrawing a service.
    Lastly, I did make comment regarding members of the IAFF who themselves have second jobs. Does this too constitute scabing? And if so what is the position of the IAFF on this matter and how does it go about stopping it?

  5. #25
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    Mesha47.. I see we have a difference of opinion. Well let me first say that I have never used the word scab as it relates to this matter. But you did agree that if someone was to volunteer to do your work then you would be upset, (they maybe even a scab to you).Well the original question was should other unionized member volunteer? Well I know where you stand on this matter, I just hope that someday this doesn't happen to you.As for the members should not step down until bargaining is complete because it will decrease the fire protection to the residents, well if you knew the full story behind the curtain then you would know that this will not be so as the residents will still receive the same level of fire protection.

  6. #26
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    Tanner,
    You are absolutely correct when you state that I do not know the full story. What I do know is only what you presented in this forum and based on that information I have drawn my conclusions and opinions. However, my reverse question still remains. Are members of the IAFF who themselves take second jobs doing the same thing that you made comment about of other union members. And if so what does the IAFF do about it??

  7. #27
    Forum Member Smoke20286's Avatar
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    It was I who brought up the "S" word and most unionized workers would have a broader definition of a scab then one who crosses a picket-line during a strike. Your "reverse question" as you state it is irrelevant unless those IAFF members are going into a union environment and working for less then the wages specified in the collective agreement. People with an anti-union bias amaze me, no matter what field you work in, whether you are management or a worker you benefit from the hard won victories of the union members who went before.

  8. #28
    Forum Member weir33's Avatar
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    Tanner if I understand you correctly members of other unions are volunteering it is unclear from your comments if they are being paid if this is so then it isn't called volunteering anymore.
    What support are you receiving from your union? Has your union contacted the other unions and asked for solidarity on this issue. You pay dues to support your union so they can provide protection to its members. It seems to me you should be asking for more from your union. If you not being served by your union then Volunteer to serve as a union rep. and try to change things that way. Yes I am a union member. I am a member of PSAC and an considered an essencial service, we are limited in our ability to protest we can not have full scale walk outs, but we can have work slowdowns and limited numbers can picket but we must maintain a minimum service. We also have issues of contracting out and downsizing. At times we are asked by our union to support other unions even if it is just a boycott of consumer products it is cooperation between brothers and sisters. Good luck

    “CAUTION SOAP BOX AREA"

    Every time I see posts about IAFF members working second jobs and the whole Two Hatter issue I see red flags go up. Presently there is a Bill in the works dealing with this issue. I don't think the Bill is the answer to the problem. In some cases volunteers are replacing paid members where this happens a localized answer is needed to address the issue. The entire budget of my dept would not support a one member day shift dept. The nearest paid member to us is the Chief of a 60 member vol dept. Some community’s tax bases will not support a paid dept, but they still deserve the same level of service. The big hammer response of no volunteering by IAFF members is pitting Paid against Vol. If IAFF is really concerned with the safety issue of members being too tired to work then the Ban would also include all secondary employment. It’s hard to see the sincerity of the union leaders when they support such a biased view on two hatting. To say a second job as a VFF is more demanding than construction labour or Snowplow operators (insert all most any job here) is LAFFable. Maybe a ban on Boy Scout Leaders as Paid Members will be next. If IAFF is succesfull in its bid to stop two hatting I would be worried that the next step would be no secondary employment. Instead of bringing new members into its racks IAFF is driving paid members out .
    “NOW LEAVING SOAP BOX AREA”

    I understand that I dont know all the issues or the details of all involved but the issue is blurred by the media and comments are inflaming everone I leave the bulk of my post intact as i posted it . I have just read the thread two hatters which I should of read first and now understand the issue more clearly. But I still feel that there has been too wide a brush used in the discription of two hatting. No one should be threated in there job by contracting out or anything else of that nature. thank s for listening
    If I dont answer its not because im ignoring you it because i dont always have a internet connection I work on a ship. I take also abuse by e-mail
    Last edited by weir33; 02-01-2003 at 10:32 AM.
    J.B.WEIR
    Summerville Vol Fire Dept
    Pride In Service !

  9. #29
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    Mesha47

    As a member of the IAFF,I WOULD NOT be one to go into a unionized enviroment and volunteer to replace working members.That is a given fact as for all the other members of the IAFF I can not answer for.But I can tell you this I have had the opportunity to do this.

  10. #30
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    Weir33

    Yes you are correct.The members of the volunteers do get paid, and yes then by rights they are not volunteers. lets say the the amount the receive someone working at McDonalds,or Wal-Mart,may not earn in one year part-time.We do have the support from others but there are a few which have an attitude that no one can tell me what I can or can not do. This does not help the cause, only gets people upset.

  11. #31
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    It is and has been quite obvious for some time now that this like many other issues in the Fire Service are sensitive ones, that only creates division and discontent. When it comes to subject matters such as this, "WE" all at times put blinders on to the other persons thoughts and opinions, including myself.
    Smoke20286 and Tanner, I commend you on your position, although I do not necessarily agree with it.

    For the Record,
    I am a member ( not on the career side) of a composite Fire Service
    ( since amalgamation, prior to that, a volunteer( aka part-time) of a Municpal Fire Department.)
    I have had the honour of serving my community for almost 18 years and intend to do so for years to come.
    I have spent 28 years of my life working in the mining/ refining sector as a member of a union.

    I look forward to continue following the forums that are of interest to our country, and when I feel the need will put forth my ideas and opinions. I am putting to rest any further comments on this subject however, lest we come to blows.LOL... See you around the web site...

  12. #32
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    Mesha47

    I have no problem with people who state their own opinion regarding the topic in question. I hope that the composite department you volunteer under, that you respect the union/full time firefighters that are there.
    Thank you for your opinion and hope to see you around the forums to discuss further items in question.

  13. #33
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    Tanner, I recently read through the Coroners report on the Sudbury inquest and there may be some very useful information to you contained in it. You should be able to obtain a copy through your IAFF office.
    Unfortunately many of the recommendations will never happen as they do not fall under the Fire Marshal's mandate and there is no way of forcing the Municipality to adopt them.

  14. #34
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    LadyCapn ,
    Thanks for the info. Will be getting in touch with them regarding this info. As we all know its hard to get changes in.

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