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  1. #1
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    Default Rear Mounted Pump pro's & con's

    Working on specifiactions for a rescue pumper to replace a 1976 Mack CF and a 1981 non-walkin rescue. This engine will be primararly rescue and extrication. Looking at many new apparatus and what we see from overseas, we are interested in a rear mounted pump. This will get the hydraulic tools closer to the scene, allow for better weight distribution, and allow for lots of compartment space. Would like to know any bodys ideas on the rear mount pump, positive or negative. Have a little resistance from members, but really think it is just tradition. Help me out.


  2. #2
    Forum Member ff43065's Avatar
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    Cubic feet of space is the same no matter what configuration of apparatus you have. It does not matter is you place the pump at the front or the rear, it is still going to take space.

    Most of the rear mounts I have seen require eletric controls, which are expensive and a PTO pump.

    I would not want my pump operator at the rear of the truck. I think a better idea from traditional would be to place the pump operator panel on the officer side of the truck. It gets them off the street side. I see Toronto utilizes this feature.

    However, if the rear mount design works for you, go for it.

  3. #3
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    Default Rear Mount Pump/Panel

    Rear mount Pump OR Rear mount pump Panel. If the Pump is actually at the rear, it can be driven by Hydraulics or driveshaft. Where is the Pump Panel? Rear, right or left side rear? If the pump panel is actually on the rear (we have 3), it does place the operator at the rear and in the "target zone" when on freeway/highway incidents. For these same highway accidents, it seems to make little or no difference whether the pump panel is on the right or left side if the operator properly orients the apparatus in the roadway. Any highway incident may be in any number of lanes and on either side of any apparatus. Angling the apparatus with the pump panel away from traffic flow and vehicular impact will protect the operator.

    If you desire to have only the pump panel at the rear, the actual pump can be placed in the frame rails in the midship area and then plumbed where ever you desire. Inlets and outlets can be plumbed where ever you desire. It is true that cubic feet of space required to place the pump and panel will be the same no matter where you place these items. Cubic feet equals cubic feet.

    We utilize rear mount panels, traditional side mount (L) panels, and top mount panels. The top mounts are actually the safest for firefighters/engineers, as it places the engineer off the ground and in a position where s/he can oversee the fireground while performing their duties. Yes, the operator does have to get up and down more often. The operators either love the design or don't. Those that bid the position usually do so because of the design. The biggest 'con' is that it adds about 20" to the wheelbase to get the same usable space on the apparatus body. Cold zone appartus have been produced with the rear of a tilt cab cut out and overlaying the top mount panel, which puts the pump panel 'in the cab'.

    Just some options and thoughts for you to consider.

    Respectfully submitted,
    Tony

  4. #4
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    There are endless configurations that you can buy a rear-pump apparatus in. Unfortunately, because they are still relatively uncommon, most people have only seen one or two. They assume that the setup they saw is "what a rear mount pump is" and never give any thought a possibly different design (see comments even in this thread).

    Contrary to previous statements in this thread, rear-mounts typically do offer more compartment space. The plumbing itself is usually more compact because it doesn't need to completely transverse the rig, and you gain compartments on either side (true, you can enclose a midship, but you still have the plumbing issue). It's not uncommon to see a rear-mount with full depth 24" compartments on either side of the pump. You gain hosebed space, too.

    Take a look at some manufacturers that have been building rear-mounts for a while, such as Saulsbury (excellent craftsmanship, by the way, but read the "Saulsbury Delivery Time" thread before you buy one).

    Answer these questions on rear-mount pumpers:

    Where are:

    1. The discharges located?
    2. The intakes located?
    3. The preconnects located?
    4. The panel located?

    What do you think?

    The advantages of rear-mount pumps easily out-weigh the disadvantages in almost any case. Just design it right.

  5. #5
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    Pump panel will be on officer side at rear, speedlays on trays behind, and just above pump, allowing them to come off at about hip height. Preconnected 1 3/4 in tray on front bumper, 2 1/2 preconnect in hosebed. Intakes each side rear. Marion built one for Corralville, IA. Marion Calender has pic for January. Good to here about Salsbury. Always thought it was a good truck, but 2 years for delivery! Have to remember that when we go to competitive bid.

  6. #6
    Forum Member SCOOBY14B's Avatar
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    APPLEBUSH:
    Let me start off by saying you have gotten some inaccurate information regarding valve controls, pump type , and compartment space.

    Well, we currently have 13 rear mount pumps in service with 5 more being built. We have 2-FL-80 Saulsbury, 7-FL-106/ Saulsbury, 4 FL-80 Luverne, and 5 new are FL-80/ Becker/ American Lafrance.

    The configuration is identical. Pump is a HALE PSD pump located behind the rear axle. Pump is smaller and heats up a little quicker. The pump panel is in the left rear compartment behind a roll up door. There are four compartments on each side. ALL intakes come into the rear, all discharges except bumper line come off rear.

    Issues mentioned:
    "Cubic feet of space is the same no matter what configuration of apparatus you have. It does not matter is you place the pump at the front or the rear, it is still going to take space."

    INCORRECT! A midship pump takes up the entire midship area. With our units, the left rear compartment is used for pump panel, and only 3 feet tall and 2 1/2 feet wide. All spare hose, engineer tools, nozzles, wyes, etc are stored in the extra space. With this configuration the truck is MUCH shorter.

    "Most of the rear mounts I have seen require eletric controls, which are expensive and a PTO pump. "

    NOT with our units!! The only electric valves we have is a HALE MIV (master intake valve) which is on ALL of our apparatus now (midship pump ladders as well). Our rear mount pumps are the same as a midship pump except the drive shaft goes to rear of truck instead of midship.

    The truck has good and bad points.

    Good:
    Shorter wheelbase
    LESS weight on front axle
    INCREASED compartment space
    LESS noise at pump panel
    Better positioning in traffic conditions versus midship

    BAD:
    We have issues with chassis (Freightshakers) NOT related to pump location
    Pump overheats quicker since pump has less mass
    99.9% of intake and discharge lines come off rear...gets busy.
    We have NO matydales

    Good luck with specing...take your time and make sure you get what you want. Have PLENY of meetings and inspections. The rear mount design is good for many departments.

  7. #7
    FH Mag/.com Contributor
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    The pump location argument is pretty close to the same as the one about where to place pre-connected hydraulic tool reels on rescue apparatus: how do you pull up to the overwhelming majority of your incidents?

    The whole reason bumper lines became popular, is because you pull up to a scene with the front of the truck facing it, and it made a tons of sense to have a handline there for ease of deployment. If you pull down streets and deploy from either side, then top vs midship vs rear, really doesn't matter because you're going off the side of the trucks with the lines no matter what, so the apparatus can be positioned to line up the crosslays with the incident.

    My only concern with rear-mounts, is sticking the operator in the line of fire. We all know that people drive with their head firmly wedged between their cheeks (the back ones). Add in some flashing lights and either a fire or crushed cars, and they REALLY don't know where they're going. Think it doesn't happen? I think that story about the NC medic losing his legs is still on the Firehouse.com home page. It wasn't an engine, but the situation was pretty much the same. At least with mid-ship, the apparatus can be positioned at an angle to protect crews. But no one does it because it would tie up traffic. TOO DAMN BAD. Even if the incident is confined to one lane, you should always block two. I don't care how much the cops bitch, traffic control is their problem, crew safety is mine.

    The safest place, and the easiest one that I've found to operate from, is top mount. Both sides are easily accessible, and being up higher means better incident visibility. Yes, a drawback is a longer truck, by about 20" on average. And up and down really isn't that big of a deal. It beats running around the entire truck every few minutes to see what is going on if the pump panel is on the opposite side of the truck from the fire/supply line/attack lines.

    Rear mount beats mid-ship in that arena too, but not on forward facing incidents. Your operator is another half-length of the truck away from the scene if it's in front. Sideways it's just as easy as the top mount, but if you're in a colder climate, what's to say the 2nd in piece is going to stop in time on that ice or snow-covered road. Get hit from the rear, and that rear mount pump is OOS and you are SOL.

    Your best bet: start with compartment space. Lay out everything that you want to put on this truck, and figure out how much compartment space you're going to need to fit it all on. Contact the manufacturers, and see how long the truck will be if made with all 3 pump styles. Make sure it's short enough to fit where you plan on parking it. May seem like a dumb statement, but it's happened in the not so distant past. Make sure the pump capacity is high enough. If you're supplying an aerial master stream on a regular basis, 2000gpm is the minimum. That whole higher DP, lower gallonage thing. 2000/150psi, 1000/250psi, etc, etc. Steam knocks down fire, water extinguishes them.

    Either way you go, take the other's advice and plumb that 2.5" to the bumper. And stick a hydraulic reel in it while you're at it. In fact, go bananas, with a custom chassis design, get the big extended bumper, stick a combie tool, hydraulic reel, a 2.5" discharge on a swivel, and that 100-150' handline on it.

    Examples:

    Pierce: http://www.piercemfg.com/new_deliver...12&Type=rescue

    Saulsbury: http://www.saulsburyfire.com/newdeli...ustomer_id=137

    These are the two that I could find the quickest. There's oodles more out there.

    Happy spec'ing

    Brian

    Brian
    Brian P. Vickers
    www.vickersconsultingservices.com
    Emergency Services Consulting
    Westlake VFD - Houston, TX
    Proud Member IACOJ - Redneck Division

  8. #8
    Senior Member raven911's Avatar
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    I have to agree with BC79ER. I used to drive a Pierce Arrow top mount. There really is nothing safer, more versatile, or convenient for a pump panel location. If a car does hit a top mounted pumper at an MVA, you have all those compartments to absorb the impact. Hopefully you won't get thrown off too far. It sure beats getting squashed between vehicles.
    IACOJ Military Division
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    "There are three kinds of men: The ones who learn by reading, the few who learn by observation, and the rest of them who have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."

  9. #9
    Forum Member raricciuti's Avatar
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    We have two 2002 Spartan/Precision rescue pumpers with rear-mounted Hale RME pumps, rated 1500 gpm (they will do 1950 from draft), driveshaft driven. The pump panel is in the left rear compartment behind a rollup door. Tank size is 600 gallons (500 water, 85 B foam, 15 A foam). We have a single 6" rear intake, a 3.5" aux. intake; discharges are two 3.5", one 5", three 1-3/4", two 2-1/2".

    Preconnects are all in the foreward-most compartment (transverse) - three 1-3/4" and one 2-1/2", all foam capable. There are also two 150' 1-3/4" hirise packs and two 100' 2-1/2" hirise packs in this compartment, along with a longboard, two 6' hooks, a 17' little giant type ladder, two 150' cord reels, an 1800 watt portable generator, and one 100' HRT reel and combi-tool. The rear hosebed holds 1200' of 5", 400' of 3-1/2". 200' of 2-1/2", and 100' of 3" preconnected to a Blitzfire. We also keep a 25' section of 5" connected to the intake with our hydrant fitting on the end (fits into a tray beside the intake) - just like a front suction.

    We have found these units to be easy to operate, good weight balance, uncluttered, with easy to use pump panels. We had to spec pans under the pumps and heaters in the pump compartment, as the pumps are far removed from the heat of the engine and freezing was a concern (Pittsburgh often gets temps around zero in the winter). We've had a couple of valve problems, but nothing related to the pump configuration. Spotting a hydrant is a little different - we're used to front intakes, and passing up the hydrant is a little unnatural, but lots of training has cured that. The design has resulted in a lot more compartment space, which was one of the biggest problems we have with our older engines - too much stuff & not enough room! If you'd like pictures and/or more info please e-mail me directly. rricciuti@mtlebanon.org
    R.A. Ricciuti
    Mt. Lebanon Fire Department

  10. #10
    Forum Member PenguinMedic's Avatar
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    Lightbulb How bout' a "Bumper Pumper"?

    Have you looked at a front mounted pump yet? Here in Oregon there are quite a few of them. My department runs 2 front mount engines, and 2 tenders. They are very easy to use, simple to maintain, and cost less then most midship designs. The entire body of the rig is available for storage, and a large water tank. Here is a link to photo's of a "Bumper Pumper" from a department on the Oregon coast.

    http://www.hwev.com/album-yachats.html

    Stay safe,
    John

  11. #11
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    Default Rear-mount the best

    With a rear-mount the water tank is just behind the cab and gives the rig better balance. The handling is worlds better.

    Later.

  12. #12
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    Thanks to all those who have taken the time to give thoughts on the rear pump design. Applebush

  13. #13
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    If you have enough room, I would recomend top mount. You are out of the way of traffic and the operator has a birds eye view of the incident.

  14. #14
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    Here in Australia we use both rear mount and midmount with rear mount being the most common. I've used both as a career and vollie firefighter/engineer and I prefer rearmount as it safer for the operator, as you are never road traffic side. Also you can see both to the left and right of the engine from a rear mount panel, all the delivery and feeder line connections are close together, no having to to do half a lap of the engine going from delivery 1 to 4. My experience is that there is more stowage space available with rear mounts as well.

  15. #15
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    Default What kind of ladders do you use? Pumper41

    What kind of ladders down below? Who builds your pumps?
    Thanks.
    Stay Safe.
    Later.

  16. #16
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    Helicopter722, it's a case of different equipment in different states, in my state of New South Wales (NSW), ladders are 30 meter (100 ft)german built Magarius on Magarius and Iveco chassis. We also have 37 meter (130ft) Bronto Hydraulic platforms on Mercedes Benz chassis. Pumps on pumpers (engines) can come from Hale, Darley, Waterous from the US, Godiva (owned by Hale Europe) from Britain, Rosenbauer from Switzerland, and GAAM and Thompson from Australia. Engines are built on both custom and commercial chassis, both rear mount and mid mount, in NSW rear mount is favored. My career station for example has an Australian custom built Varley Commander chassis/body with a rearmounted 5500 lpm (US 1500 gpm) Godiva GMA 5300 pump, my vollie station an interface engine on a Japanese GM Isuzu FTS 750 4WD chassis, with an Australian built GAAM 450 US gpm rear mount pump with its own diesel engine, the apparatus being locally built. Some North American chassis are in service down here, although the apparaus is built locally in either Australia or New Zealand. ALF's and Freightliner FL80's for example in the states of Queensland and Victoria for example.

  17. #17
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    Default CAFS In Australia?

    Pumper41, do you know of any use of compressed-air foam systems in your area? Thanks.
    Later.

  18. #18
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    Helicopter722, CAFS is fairly rare in Australia, a few have been trialled, but the expense seems to impacted on purchases. Neither my career or vollie departments have CAFS. (although we do have both class A and B foam systems). Some land management agencies have a few CAFS equipped vehicles. In this part of the world, CAFS is much more widely used in New Zealand, Maybe "FLYING KIWI" on these forums can provide more info.

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