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Thread: WAR...what do you think?
01-30-2003, 03:59 PM #1
WAR...what do you think?
Last edited by E40FDNYL35; 01-30-2003 at 04:04 PM.ALL GAVE SOME BUT SOME GAVE ALL
NEVER FORGET 9-11-01
CAPT. Frank Callahan Ladder 35 *
LT. John Ginley Engine 40
FF. Bruce Gary Engine 40
FF. Jimmy Giberson Ladder 35
FF. Michael Otten Ladder 35 *
FF. Steve Mercado Engine 40 *
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FF. Vincent Morello Ladder 35
FF. Michael Roberts Ladder 35 *
FF. Michael Lynch Engine 40
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"If my job was easy a cop would be doing it."
01-30-2003, 04:15 PM #2
All this for OIL I think not. I think that a great many people are going to be surprised when we go over there, oust him from power, and then help Iraq be a free country again in charge of it's own OIL fields and laws.
Funny the whole reason Russia and Germany don't want to go to war is because of money FING hypocrite.
01-30-2003, 04:43 PM #3
- Join Date
- May 2002
- Now in Victoria, BC. I'm from beautiful Jasper Alberta in the heart of the Can. Rockies - will always be an Albertan at heart!
Chrétien waffling on Iraq, says opposition
Last Updated Thu, 30 Jan 2003 11:10:38
OTTAWA - Canada's position on Iraq remains unchanged following U.S. President George Bush's promise to produce evidence of Saddam Hussein's deceptions.
Jean Chrétien responds to questions concerning a possible war with Iraq (CP PHOTO)
Bush warned in his state of the union address Tuesday night that the U.S. is prepared to wage war on Iraq on its own. But Prime Minister Jean Chrétien says Canada continues to insist that the United Nations lead any efforts to disarm Iraq.
Chrétien says Canada is looking forward to seeing the evidence the Americans will give to the United Nations next week. "We're waiting to see that proof. Good, if they have it. It will be good for the people."
Canada is also not joining other U.S. allies in declaring Iraq to be in breach of the Security Council's order to disarm. The opposition calls that waffling.
But Opposition leader Stephen Harper said Canada, in the end, will likely join a U.S. attack, but only after months of debating the issue. "It will not join as a leader but unnoticed at the back of the parade," he said.
The New Democrats, on the other hand, said Canada shouldn't be a part of a war in Iraq under any circumstances.
"Drop the sanctions, don't drop the bombs," said MP Alexa McDonough.
Bill Graham responds to questions concerning Iraq (CP PHOTO)
Foreign Affairs Minister Bill Graham meets U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell in Washington on Thursday. "I will bring clearly to him the Canadian position that the best possible way out of this situation is through the Security Council," said Graham.
The view from the Prime Minister's Office is that the U.S. will use force against Iraq, the only question is how long the Americans will wait.
With Powell promising to put comprehensive evidence before the UN Security Council next week, Canadian officials suggest the wait won't be long.
Written by CBC News Online staff
I also got this "Say no to war" petition 2 days ago in my email. Check out the countries these people are all from!!!! They just don't get it. Saddam Hussein just finished threatening to "destroy America" if the US attacks Iraq.
The US Congress has just authorized the President of the US to go to war against Iraq. Please consider this an urgent request.
UN Petition for Peace
Stand for Peace.
Islam is NOT the Enemy.
War is NOT the Answer.
Today we are at a point of imbalance in the world and are moving toward what may be the beginning of a THIRD WORLD WAR.
If you are against this possibility, the UN is gathering signatures in an effort to avoid a tragic world event.
Please COPY (rather than Forward) this e-mail in a new message, sign at the end of the list, and send it to all the people whom you know.
If you receive this list with more than 500 names signed, please send a copy of the message to:
1) Suzanne Dathe, Grenoble, France
2) Laurence COMPARAT, Grenoble, France
3) Philippe MOTTE, Grenoble, France
4) Jok FERRAND, Mont St. Martin, France
5) Emmanuelle PIGNOL, St Martin d'Heres, FRANCE
6) Marie GAUTHIER, Grenoble, FRANCE
7) Laurent VESCALO, Grenoble, FRANCE
8) Mathieu MOY, St Egreve, FRANCE
9) Bernard BLANCHET, Mont St Martin,FRANCE
10) Tassadite FAVRIE, Grenoble, FRANCE
11) Loic GODARD, St Ismier, FRANCE
12) Benedicte PASCAL, Grenoble, FRANCE
13) Khedaidja BENATIA, Grenoble, FRANCE
14) Marie-Therese LLORET, Grenoble,FRANCE
15) Benoit THEAU, Poitiers, FRANCE
16) Bruno CONSTANTIN, Poitiers, FRANCE
17) Christian COGNARD, Poitiers, FRANCE
18) Robert GARDETTE, Paris, FRANCE
19) Claude CHEVILLARD, Montpellier, FRANCE
20) Gilles FREISS, Montpellier, FRANCE
21) Patrick AUGEREAU, Montpellier, FRANCE
22) Jean IMBERT, Marseille, FRANCE
23) Jean-Claude MURAT, Toulouse, France
24) Anna BASSOLS, Barcelona, Catalonia
25) Mireia DUNACH, Barcelona, Catalonia
26) Michel VILLAZ, Grenoble, France
27) Pages Frederique, Dijon, France
28) Rodolphe FISCHMEISTER,Chatenay-Malabry, France
29) Francois BOUTEAU, Paris, France
30) Patrick PETER, Paris, France
31) Lorenza RADICI, Paris, France
32) Monika Siegenthaler, Bern, Switzerland
33) Mark Philp, Glasgow, Scotland
34) Tomas Andersson, Stockholm, Sweden
35) Jonas Eriksson, Stockholm, Sweden
36) Karin Eriksson, Stockholm, Sweden
37) Ake Ljung, Stockholm, Sweden
38) Carina Sedlmayer, Stockholm, Sweden
39) Rebecca Uddman, Stockholm, Sweden
40) Lena Skog, Stockholm, Sweden
41) Micael Folke, Stockholm, Sweden
42) Britt-Marie Folke, Stockholm, Sweden
43) Birgitta Schuberth, Stockholm, Sweden
44) Lena Dahl, Stockholm, Sweden
45) Ebba Karlsson, Stockholm, Sweden
46) Jessica Carlsson, Vaxjo, Sweden
47) Sara Blomquist, Vaxjo, Sweden
48) Magdalena Fosseus, Vaxjo, Sweden
49) Charlotta Langner, Goteborg, Sweden
50) Andrea Egedal, Goteborg, Sweden
51) Lena Persson, Stockholm, Sweden
52) Magnus Linder, Umea ,Sweden
53) Petra Olofsson, Umea, Sweden
54) Caroline Evenbom, Vaxjo, Sweden
55) Asa Peterson, Grimes, Sweden
56) Jessica Bjork, Grimes, Sweden
57) Linda Ahlbom Goteborg, Sweden
58) Jenny Forsman, Boras, Sweden
59) Nina Gunnarson, Kinna, Sweden
60) Andrew Harrison, New Zealand
61) Bryre Murphy, New Zealand
62) Claire Lugton, New Zealand
63) Sarah Thornton, New Zealand
64) Rachel Eade, New Zealand
65) Magnus Hjert, London, UK
67) Madeleine Stamvik, Hurley, UK
68) Susanne Nowlan, Vermont, USA
69) Lotta Svenby, Malmoe, Sweden
70) Adina Giselsson, Malmoe, Sweden
71) Anders Kullman, Stockholm, Sweden
72) Rebecka Swane, Stockholm, Sweden
73) Jens Venge, Stockholm, Sweden
74) Catharina Ekdahl, Stockholm, Sweden
75) Nina Fylkegard, Stockholm, Sweden
76) Therese Stedman, Malmoe, Sweden
77) Jannica Lund, Stockholm, Sweden
78) Douglas Bratt
79) Mats Lofstrom, Stockholm, Sweden
80) Li Lindstrom, Sweden
81) Ursula Mueller, Sweden
82) Marianne Komstadius, Stockholm, Sweden
83) Peter Thyselius, Stockholm, Sweden
84) Gonzalo Oviedo, Quito, Ecuador
85) Amalia Romeo, Gland, Switzerland
86) Margarita Restrepo, Gland, Switzerland
87) Eliane Ruster, Crans p.C., Switzerland
88) Jennifer Bischoff-Elder, Hong Kong
89) Azita Lashgari, Beirut, Lebanon
90) Khashayar Ostovany, New York, USA
91) Lisa L Miller, Reno NV
92) Danielle Avazian, Los Angeles, CA
93) Sara Risher,Los Angeles,Ca.
94) Melanie London, New York, NY
95) Susan Brownstein , Los Angeles, CA
96) Steven Raspa, San Francisco, CA
97) Margot Duane, Ross, CA
98) Natasha Darnall, Los Angeles, CA
99) Candace Brower, Evanston, IL
100) James Kjelland, Evanston, IL
101) Michael Jampole, Beach Park, IL, USA
102) Diane Willis, Wilmette, IL, USA
103) Sharri Russell, Roanoke, VA, USA
104) Faye Cooley, Roanoke, VA, USA
105) Celeste Thompson, Round Rock, TX, USA
106) Sherry Stang, Pflugerville, TX, USA
107) Amy J. Singer, Pflugerville, TX USA
108) Milissa Bowen, Austin, TX USA
109) Michelle Jozwiak, Brenham, TX USA
110) Mary Orsted, College Station, TX USA
111) Janet Gardner, Dallas, TX USA
112) Marilyn Hollingsworth, Dallas, TX USA
113) Nancy Shamblin, Garland. TX USA
114) K. M. Mullen, Houston, TX - USA
115) Noreen Tolman, Houston, Texas - USA
116) Laurie Sobolewski, Warren, MI
117) Kellie Sisson Snider, Irving Texas
118) Carol Currie, Garland, Garland Texas
119) John Snyder, Garland, TX USA
120) Elaine Hannan, South Africa
121) Jayne Howes, South Africa
122) Diane Barnes, Akron, Ohio
123) Melanie Dass Moodley, Durban, South Africa
124) Imma Merino, Barcelona, Catalonia
125) Toni Vinas, Barcelona, Catalonia
126) Marc Alfaro, Barcelona, Catalonia
127) Manel Saperas, Barcelona, Catalonia
128) Jordi Ribas Izquierdo, Catalonia
129) Naiana Lacorte Rodes, Catalonia
130) Joan Vitoria i Codina, Barcelona,Catalonia
131) Jordi Paris i Romia, Barcelona,Catalonia
131) Marta Truno i Salvado, Barcelona,Catalonia
132) Jordi Lagares Roset, Barcelona,Catalonia
133) Josep Puig Vidal, Barcelona,Catalonia
134) Marta Juanola i Codina, Barcelona,Catalonia
135) Manel de la Fuente i Colino,Barcelona,Catalonia
136) Gemma Belluda i Ventura, Barcelona,Catalonia
137) Victor Belluda i Ventur, Barcelona,Catalonia
138) MaAntonia Balletbo, Barcelona, Spain
139) Mireia Masdevall Llorens, Barcelona,Spain
140) Clara Planas, Barcelona, Spain
141) Fernando Labastida Gual, Barcelona,Spain
142) Cristina Vacarisas, Barcelona, Spain
143) Enric Llarch i Poyo, Barcelona, Catalonia
144) Rosa Escoriza Valencia, Barcelona,Catalonia
145) Silvia Jimenez, Barcelona, Catalonia
146) Maria Clarella, Barcelona, Catalonia
147) Angels Guimera, Barcelona, Catalonia
148) M.Carmen Ruiz Fernandez, Barcelona,Catalonia
149) Rufi Cerdan Heredia, Barcelona,Catalonia
150) M. Teresa Vilajeliu Roig, Barcelona,Catalonia
151) Rafel LLussa, Girona, Catalonia,Spain
152) Mariangels Gallego Ribo, Gelida,Catalonia
153) Jordi Cortadella, Gelida, Catalonia
154) Pere Botella, Barcelona, Catalonia(Spain)
155) Josefina Auladell Baulenas, Catalunya(Spain)
156) Empar Escoin Carceller, Catalunya(Spain)
157) Elisa Pla Soler, Catalunya (Spain)
158) Paz Morillo Bosch, Catalunya (Spain)
159) Cristina Bosch Moreno, Madrid (Spain)
160) Marta Puertolas, Barcelona (Spain)
161) Elisa del Pino (Madrid) Spain
162) Joaquin Rivera (Madrid) Spain
163) Carmen Barral (Madrid) Spain
164) Carmen del Pino (Madrid) Spain
165) Asuncion del Pino (Madrid) Spain
166) Francesca Mostardini (Milano) Italy
167) Federico Bonadeo (Milano) Italy
168) Jo Burchell (Dorset) England
169) Matt Hinds (London) England
170) Vladimir Eatwell (London) England
171) Hannah Dawson (Cambridge) England
172) Helen Peeks (London) England
173) Judit Child (St. John) U.S.V.I
174) Kathaleen (Texas) U.S.A.
175) Deana Blanch (Texas) U.S.A
176) Erin Flaherty Vancouver, Canada
177) Holly Flaherty Daegu, South Korea
178) Meredith J. Hayes, Montreal, Canada
179) Jeffrey Murray Gougeon, Seoul, South Korea)
180) Chris Gougeon, Montreal, Canada
190) Rob Shallhorn, Montreal, Canada
191) Marc Edmunds, London, England
192) Marie-Eve Duffy,Montreal, Canada
193) Katie Ewald, Montreal, Canada
194) Christine Kjellberg, Hosle, Norway
195) Siri B. Rom, Stabekk, Norway
196) Halvard A. Mxgster, Norway
197) Tor Grxnvik, Norway
198) Knut Grxnvik, Norway
200) Kai-Rune Myhrer, Norway
201) Hilde R. Myhrer
204) Kari Strand, Norway
205) Boye Welde, Norway
206) Kristin Rygg, Norway
207) Nils Holger Petersen, Denmark
208) Bernhard F. Scholz, Netherlands/Germany
209) Harald Fricke, Fribourg/Switzerland
210) Agnes Mueller (South Carolina), U.S.A
211) Azade Seyhan (Pennsylvania), U.S.A.
212) Elif Denel (Pennsylvania), U.S.A
213) Fulya Kocak, Ankara, Turkey
214) Michaela Dlouhá, Brno, Czech Republic
215) Laura Fornasiero, Abano Terme (Pd), Italy
216) Tara Cole, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
217) Keelin McNab, Hamilton, Ontario CANADA
218) Brandon McNab, Thunder Bay, Ontario Canada
219) Nate Zahn, T. Bay, Ontario Canada
220) Stephen Palmateer, Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
221) John Thaler, Sackville, New Brunswick, Canada
222) Gregory Taves, Wellesley, Ontario Canada
223) Lindsay Doehn, Tavistock, Ontario Canada
224) Thom Adamson, Oakville, Ontario Canada
225) Matt Doehn, Tavistock, Ontario Canada
226) Deanne Reist, Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
227) Andrew Jones, Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
228) David Huber, New Dundee, Ontario, Canada
229) Krystal King, Petersburg, Ontario, Canada
230) Cynthia Black, Petersburg, Ontario, Canada
231) Melissa Roswell, Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
232) Sarah de Jong, Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
233) Jason Dubbeldam, Oakville, Ontario, Canada
234) Brian Dubbeldam, Rupert, Quebec,Canada
235) Donna Ozarko, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
236) Nicole Smith, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
237) Guy Fortier, Sydenham, Ontario, Canada
238) Kevin Wight, Kingston, Ontario, Canada
I took the last name 239 off as it was the person that sent it to me.
All I can say is "how quickly they forget" ..... be it September 11th they are forgetting or the world wars fought and won for freedom and democracy. Sorry for the super long post .... just thought I'd show what some Canadians think of it all, but I'll tell you right now, we don't all have the same opinions as are expressed in the above news article and petition!!!!!September 11th - Never Forget
I respect firefighters and emergency workers worldwide. Thank you for what you do.
IACOJ CRUSTY CONVENTION CHAIR
RAY WAS HERE FIRST
01-30-2003, 04:58 PM #4
- Join Date
- Oct 2002
- Walton County Georgia
I think that we will be going to war, and very soon, and when we do I believe that it will be a war like no other, it will be dirty, and there will be some serious things (aka chemical, biological bombs, etc.) flying around, and unfortunately a lot of people will probably die. I also think that Sadaam will send some people over here (suicide bombers, etc.) to attack us on our own turf....not pretty....not at all...
01-30-2003, 06:41 PM #5
A war like any other? Yes.
But that doesn't mean nuclear, chemical, biological -- been there, done that all before.
I'm expecting a very quick take down of the command & control structure. We've had 10 years of operating in a low-level war there to plan this, that first round is going to do a lot of damage to C&C.
Iraqi, like many autocratic gov'ts, use very centralized systems to issue orders. Not much autonomy.
You're not looking at a lot of idealouge zealots that would then act on their own. Look at the language of Iraq -- they don't speak much of a holy war, 'cause fostering strong religous fever would endanger their gov't as well.
Not many people are going to bat for Sadam. Nor is there particulary strong "national" sense in Iraq, indeed the ruling class all comes from a very small area, I guess the equivelant of a large American county.
So you're not up against a strong sense of nation, politics, or religion to break. Cut off the head -- Saddam & his small cadre -- and their ability & desire to carry organized attacks will go poof.
The two largest dangers is in the chaos as the existing Iraqi regime collapses (while Special & Other Forces are still working to gain control of all potential WMD stockpiles). The lesser worry is Iran, but I believe they will remain neutral -- as much as the U.S. is no friend of theirs, Iraq is neither. A hostile Iran would mean a hostile flank along the entire eastern Persian Gulf, and that would make naval operations difficult.
01-30-2003, 07:26 PM #6
- Join Date
- Jul 1999
- Flanders, NJ
Don't worry Respect, there are about that many US citizens who don't want us to go do the right thing, either.
When this is all said and done (probably not in the too distance future), there will be a long list of countries and people who will be apologizing to our great President.
It's funny, but alot of the countries who owe us their very existence (France comes to mind, Gernmany, so does Kuwait, and yes, Canada owes us a little, too) are against us on this. Like I said, Cheney ought to go over to France and remind them of what all of those little white crosses mean.
01-30-2003, 09:42 PM #7
Let us not forget that the burden of proof is on Saddam, not President Bush. Per UN resolution 1441 he must prove he doesn't have WMD. I predict war on approximately Feb 20."We shouldn't be opening firehouses in Baghdad and closing them in New York City."
01-31-2003, 08:03 AM #8
Nothing that Bush promised after 9/11 has occurred. We have done nothing about any of the "Axis of Evil" countries that have attacked our country, or supported those that did. The US has become a paper tiger, following "warnings", not with action, but with more warnings. By our inactions, we have not frightened those that threaten us, we have encouraged them.
Today, the US is the only superpower, yet we are held hostage by a motley group of barbarians. Iraq, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, and
Iran are our mortal enemies.
While Iraq plays 3-card monte with its WMD, the US is busy working on a "consensus" from the UN, which recognizes as valid the very governments that threaten the US.
War yes or no.
YES9/11/01 Never forget Never forgive
Dusty, working on Crusty IACOJ
01-31-2003, 10:39 AM #9
I have to disagree with you a little. While we have disturbed the hornet’s nest, we also have taken their nest and handed it over to the people of Afghanistan. Allot of the terrorist has Bush stated are now in prison or dead. Every day countries are uncovering plots, this is because of information that is gathered from the terrorist that are captured.
Allot of people will disagree with me, but you know what I believe that Bin Laden is dead. He is a smart man; never make the mistake of thinking that he is not. A smart man would know that the time to put it to the US by definitive proof to show that he is alive has come and gone. In other words he would have made sure that we knew he was alive. Look at all the tapes that we have found of him that where all right after 9/11. The man loves the camera, so why now are there none, because it is hard to make tapes when you are six feet under. There maybe be someone that is acting as him giving out orders but it is not Bin Laden IMHO.
This is going to take time, I'm not sure why people think that this was only going to take a few months and then we would be done and there would never be terrorist in the world again. This is a war that may take a life time or longer. But IMHO it is allot better then sitting on our hands trying to pretend that they are not there. Slick Wiley may have been able to do it; by myself I never could and never will. It is going to take time, and some Americans are going to pay the price. I'm ready and willing when my unit gets called to go and do my part. Infact I'm betting on the fact that I will not even get the chance to Finnish FF1 class before that happens. And in my job there is not alot of Life expectance out in the field. Combat Engineer!
01-31-2003, 01:32 PM #10
I don't think a lot of people realize this big mess is just a continuation of what was started 2000 years ago. The two sides are eventually going to fight, either in Iraq or somplace else. The same goes for North Korea, which is just as big, if not worse, a problem.IACOJ Military Division
"There are three kinds of men: The ones who learn by reading, the few who learn by observation, and the rest of them who have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."
01-31-2003, 01:37 PM #11
While Iraq plays 3-card monte with its WMD, the US is busy working on a "consensus" from the UN, which recognizes as valid the very governments that threaten the US.
- Join Date
- Jul 1999
- Flanders, NJ
As far as this consensus stuff...remember, we are being forced to play the UN game by liberal US haters like your "beloved" Senator Clinton. Our big mistake was going to the UN at all.
Airborne, thanks for what you do, bro.
01-31-2003, 01:40 PM #12
- Join Date
- Dec 2002
- Kansas USA
Just a little...
The problem with the "Its for OIL" theory is blown out of the water by this. A oil embargo against the second richest oil reserve means steeper barrel prices, Correct? A free Iraqi people (whom are being starved by a dictator) will create a competative market in the oil industry, thereby lowering barrel costs - VOILA cheaper gas prices! Who is this new market going to compete against? Answer: the "big oil" companies here in America and around the world. The oil industry is going to have to be more competitive to stay alive because Iraq does have the second largest oil reserve known.
The ONLY way this would enrich "big oil" would be for President Bush to allow them to take over the oil in Iraq, which I don't see him doing or the Iraqi people letting happen.
This war will be about ousting a despot of a leader who has used weapons of mass destruction on his own people. I would wager that Saddam's death won't be bitterly grieved by his citizens.
01-31-2003, 02:36 PM #13
"liberal US haters like your "beloved" Senator Clinton."
I am in 100% agreement in that many of our "leaders" are de facto "liberal US haters". I am embarrased to be represented by such an individual as Ms. Clinton.
"Our big mistake was going to the UN at all. " I absolutely agree with this also, we don't need the UN's (or anyone's) approval to protect our country and its citizens.
Airborne: Yes, we have made some inroads into the problem in afghanistan, but Bush stated that we would also deal with the "evil nations" that supported Bin Laden and the Taliban. This is what I was talking about, we have not begun this fight.
I second George's thank you to all who serve in the military.9/11/01 Never forget Never forgive
Dusty, working on Crusty IACOJ
01-31-2003, 06:29 PM #14
- Join Date
- Mar 2002
- Loco madidus effercio in rutilus effercio.
THIS IS FROM THE ONLINE PAPER 31 JAN 03
A second UN resolution authorizing war on Iraq not needed.
JOHN WARD Canadian Press Friday, January 31, 2003
CREDIT: (CP/Tom Hanson)
Foreign Affairs Minister Bill Graham responds to questions concerning a possible war with Iraq during Question Period in the House of Commons, Friday. (CP/Tom Hanson)
OTTAWA (CP) - A second UN Security Council resolution isn't needed to authorize the use of force against Iraq, Foreign Affairs Minister Bill Graham said Friday, just a day after Prime Minister Jean Chretien made the same comment.
But Graham, who had hedged on the second resolution question for most of the week, said many would like to see such a move, even if it's not absolutely essential. "Most people are working toward another resolution, there's no question of that," he said outside the Commons.
"That's where the United States is, that's where the Europeans are, that's where I'm sure (British Prime Minister Tony) Blair (is) - I can't predict what he's going to say to the president - that's my understanding."
Blair met U.S. President George W. Bush on Friday and said afterwards that council resolution 1441, passed last fall, was a last warning to Saddam Hussein of Iraq.
"When we went down the UN route, we passed resolution 1441, we said very clearly that Saddam had what we said was a final opportunity to disarm and he had to co-operate fully with the UN weapons inspectors," Blair said.
He said Iraq is not co-operating and the UN should come together "and make it absolutely clear that this is unacceptable."
Bush said a second resolution would be welcome if it is another signal that the world is determined to have Iraq disarm.
But, he added, he doesn't want the process dragged out.
"This is a matter of weeks not months," he said. "Any attempt to drag the process out for months will be resisted by the United States."
Graham, who spoke with U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell in Washington on Thursday, said Canada and the United States are not divided.
"There's no distinction between American policy and our own on the respect for and the need for the UN process."
He said the Security Council must decide whether Iraq has flouted resolution 1441, which demands full co-operation with UN weapons inspectors.
However, it can act without a formal resolution.
"How it does that, by resolution, by indication, by declaration, there are many ways it can indicate how it's going to handle this matter."
Graham denied that he was at odds with Chretien over a second resolution.
"The prime minister said it is not necessary, but the prime minister also, if you look at the context of his earlier comments and all my comments. . .is that we have to work with the Security Council and we have to work within the framework of resolution 1441."
Graham said he wants to hear what Powell has to say to the council next Wednesday and what Hans Blix, the chief arms inspector says when he reports Feb. 14.
Only than can the council make a decision and that would let Canada decide its next move.
In the event that Canada decides not to go along with an American attack, some worry that Washington might retaliate with tough border measures that would hurt the Canadian economy.
Graham said he doesn't see a link.
"I don't believe necessarily that we'll be punished for this policy or that policy," he said. "The border is something that is to our mutual benefit. We have mutual security concerns and we have mutual prosperity concerns for our citizens."
© Copyright 2003 The Canadian Press
This would be the second article from the PM that suggests he is willing to augment Coalition forces with Canadian resources (there has not been any finalization of what "resources" means yet). For the main point of this discussion, I actually hope it does not come to that - I have already been to that part of the world in the recent past courtesy of the Navy. I know that next time is "for keeps", but if there is a better way, I would be happy to find it.
HOWEVER, if it does come to use of deadly force, then so be it, and if needed I will once again find myself in a foreign place, sun blistering down on me and wondering "OOOOhhhhhh why am I here?" And then I will think of my two young boys, and I will remember.If you don't do it RIGHT today, when will you have time to do it over? (Hall of Fame basketball player/coach John Wooden)
"I may be slow, but my work is poor." Chief Dave Balding, MVFD
"Its not Rocket Science. Just use a LITTLE imagination." (Me)
Get it up. Get it on. Get it done!
impossible solved cotidie. miracles postulo viginti - quattuor hora animadverto
IACOJ member: Cheers, Play safe y'all.
01-31-2003, 11:06 PM #15
Well stated. Some times that things that we do are not for ourselves or for the here and now. Sometimes it is for things much bigger and more important.
02-03-2003, 02:40 PM #16
I say YES to removing Saddam. We should also give each of these "Not In Our Name" clowns a one-way ticket to Baghdad so they can be part of the "Human Shield".Living the dream...
02-04-2003, 11:36 AM #17
A lot of good points here. Hope mine add something to this...
First, Americans are a little too forgiving and forgetful. On 9/12/01, you couldn't have had enough plane tickets to basic training. "Grr," people said. "We will get these mean people who came into our house and did this."
flash ahead to one year later
"Grr," people say. "We cannot interfere with another country's government. This is all over oil!"
What the hell is going on here?
Second, Americans only trust hindsight. Anyone who purports to have foresight must have an ulterior motive for political or financial gain.
To wit, 9/12/01: "Grr," people said. "Clinton was too easy on Osama after the embassy bombings. He should have seen this coming."
Now 2/4/03: "Grr," people say. "There's no proof Saddam is a threat. We have no justification to attack."
Finally, Americans seem to be more worried about protecting armed & armored soldiers and tanks than about protecting their own children. Soldiers have made the noble decision to risk their lives to protect the rest of us. They have been very well trained and very well equipped to do that. They are expecting hostilities when they are on foreign soil, and they are prepared to respond accordingly.
THAT'S WHAT THE GO***MN MILITARY IS FOR!!!!!
My little girl is almost four. Right now she's at day care coloring or practicing her letters. A hijacked jetliner could conceivably veer off course and land right on her room. She would not have a chance.
Conversely, our personnel abroad have radar to warn them of incoming ordnance and/or aircraft. They got stuff to shoot it down with. They have bunkers to scramble into when the air raid warning comes in. They have helmets on their heads, goggles on their eyes, and flak jackets on their chests.
Yet somehow the bleeding hearts think those soldiers should be kept in a warm, dust-free area while anybody who goes to NY, LA, Chicago, etc. should be taking their lives into their own hands to do so.
Don't get me wrong. Airborne and all the other heroes in various shades of green and blue, I hope and pray that you all come home without a scratch if this thing comes to blows. But you accept this risk on our behalf so that we can lay our little heads down at night and not have to keep one eye open.
To sum up:
1. I haven't forgotten what was done to us.
2. Anyone who thinks the forces of evil wouldn't do it again is nucking futs.
3. Soldiers signed up for just this sort of thing. Let's let them do their thing."Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.”
--General James Mattis, USMC
02-04-2003, 12:00 PM #18
I think that you said it well. I'm tired of the liberals and anyone else using me as a political point to not go to war. I joined the military with the understanding that some day I may be called to make a sacrifice to protect this country. I did it of my own free will, and I have reenlist many times each time known that I was again putting my self in a position that I may be asked to go to war. I do it because I feel that we need to protect what we have.
It makes me sick all the time when I here these pansy asses talking about how we should not go to war what about our soldiers. Who are you going to send then, the girl scouts? You are right we are the best-trained and best-equipped military that this world has ever seen.
02-04-2003, 12:59 PM #19
Go Get The #$%^&*@
Well...since everyone is entitled to opinions.....here I go...
Yes...go and get him and get Bin Laden also. I am certain that we know where they both are and it seems time to approve a "covert" mission to take care of them both. This will certainly not end terrorism but will suffice to knock it off its feet and give us time to further evaluate the cells and eliminate each one as we find it. Starting from the top and going down may be the answer.
If I was not so OLD, I would enlist and be a part. But for now I will have to stay home and protect this country in my job as a firefighter.
General Schwarzcoff said it best several months ago if they should have continued until they got Hussein in the Gulf War. His reply, "Well....you know what they say about hind sight and I was only doing as I was told."09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
"Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.
02-04-2003, 02:25 PM #20
Long post warning
I find it interesting that there are so many people preaching the policy of "containment" of Sadaam. That neither we nor our allies are in danger.
Most people have heard the assertion that if we don't understand history, we are doomed to repeat it. Let's look back about 65 years or so.
Recognizing that 1938 Europe was fast developing into a powderkeg, British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain instituted a foreign policy that became referred to as a policy of appeasement.
Chamberlain believed that Germany had been badly treated by the Allies after it was defeated in the First World War. He therefore thought that the German government had genuine grievances and that these needed to be addressed. He also thought that by agreeing to some of the demands being made by Adolf Hitler of Germany and Benito Mussolini of Italy, he could avoid a European war.
In February, 1938, Adolf Hitler invited the Austrian Chancellor, to meet him at Berchtesgarden. Hitler demanded concessions for the Austrian Nazi Party. The Austrian Chancellor refused and after resigning was replaced by the leader of the Austrian Nazi Party. On 13th March, the new Chancellor invited the German Army to occupy Austria and proclaimed union with Germany. This union was in direct violation of the Treaty of Versailles, which ended WW I. Some members of the House of Commons now called on Chamberlain to take action against Adolf Hitler and his Nazi government.
On 29th September, 1938, Chamberlain, Adolf Hitler, Edouard Daladier and Benito Mussolini signed the Munich Agreement which transferred to Germany the Sudetenland, a fortified frontier region that contained a large German-speaking population. Another example of Chamberlains policy of appeasement.
When Eduard Benes, Czechoslovakia's head of state, who had not been invited to Munich, protested at this decision, Neville Chamberlain told him that Britain would be unwilling to go to war over the issue of the Sudetenland.
In March, 1939, the German Army seized the rest of Czechoslovakia. In taking this action Adolf Hitler had broken the Munich Agreement. Chamberlain now realized that Hitler could not be trusted and his appeasement policy now came to an end. After the invasion of Poland, Chamberlain was forced to declare war on Germany, and the aforementioned powderkeg blew up.
This was all following one of the most intensive military buildups in the modern history by the German government. Violation after violation of nearly every treaty Hitler ever signed as well as those signed following WW I, resulted in millions of deaths at the hand of one of history's most acknowledged barbarians.
We can't afford to wait for the "smoking gun" that some have wanted to be a requirement for military action. For a gun to smoke, it has to have been fired. That seems a lot like the results from a "policy of appeasement". If we pursue this "policy of containment or appeasement" as the case may be and this conflict is averted, what will be the true cost down the road not only to our allies, but to our kids?
Chamberlain was quoted as saying, 'Peace for our time' after the Munich Agreement was signed. At what cost of life, both civilian and military?
Sadaam and his cohorts needs to be dealt with, and with some degree of finality.
We have troops in place, they are well trained, well equipped, and their morale is high. All that is left is to allow them to do what they have been trained to do.Steve Gallagher
"I don't apologize for anything. When I make a mistake, I take the blame and go on from there." - Woody Hayes
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