View Poll Results: Buying a quint, what type to buy???

Voters
26. You may not vote on this poll
  • Quint with conventional ladder

    8 30.77%
  • Quint with ladder basket combination

    9 34.62%
  • Don't buy quints

    9 34.62%
  1. #1
    Junior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Posts
    8

    Question Buying new Quint. Ladder or Basket ???

    Ok guys.
    My department is career, 6 stations with 6 pumpers and one 104 ft ladder truck. We have about 150 true structure fires a year. We are buying a new quint to get a "2nd ladder truck" for ISO, but it will be a front line pumper too. It will respond to 4-12 calls a day, %85 EMS. It must be single axle. Sutphen is the only one that makes a single axle basket quint.

    Here is my question.

    What are the pros and cons of a quint with a standard ladder, and a quint with a ladder-basket?

    Thanks for your input, and I can clarify any specifics if needed

  2. #2
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Pa
    Posts
    181

    Default

    Well, I'll throw in my opinions:
    Generally, I like a straight ladder. The truck is usually a few feet shorter, lighter and I feel more manuverable. It really all depends on your community though. Our quint is first out for all structure fires in the district, but we don't run near what you list.
    I guess all things being equal, I would like a platform. We were limited to what fit in the building, cost, and weight/length restrictions. We've grown to love the stick, but I would also be happy with a platform.

  3. #3
    Forum Member
    Trkco1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    270

    Default

    We are buying a new quint to get a "2nd ladder truck" for ISO, but it will be a front line pumper too.
    Ok, if you're buying it for ISO purposes, why does it need to have a pump? Also if it's going to be used as a front line engine, the Sutphen Platform Quints hose bed design are not exactly hose laying friendly.

    I'm a traditionalist, Ladders don't have pumps!!
    FTM-PTB-EGH-RFB-KTF

  4. #4
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Posts
    95

    Post

    What about a telesquirt, or do they still make them.

    Call me a wuss, but I have always been a little wary about sticking people way up in the air, in a basket or ladder, just to get water on a fire, when it can be remotely controled from safe on good old Terra Firma. (I hope that is the way it is spelled or I will really look stoopid)

    Now if you need to do high-rise rescues, a ladder would probably be best as you can get more down a ladder faster than a basket, just so long as you don't overload the thing.

    Consider, too. The turn radius that you may have on your streets. What is the tightest turn that you will be making? Can the truck make it without having to wiggle back and forth a few times? (Just had that happen here at a local fire - makes that "Keep Back 500 Feet" sign mean something!)

    The Doc is out now.

  5. #5
    Junior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Posts
    8

    Default

    A little extra info.

    The tallest building we have in our city is about 25 stories. We probably have about 10 buildings over 10 stories in the entire city. Not much elevation to deal with here, and maybe we'd only need a 60 - 75 footer

    We have one aerial ladder that goes 104 feet. In my 7 years I've seen the thing in the air maybe 4-6 times. We call it the half million dollar air bottle deliverer. It gets staffed with one to three firefighters, depending on the day. The city is about 100 years old so the streets are wide and turning isn't really a problem, but the single axle is a must.

    One thought is that if we already have a stick, why not get a basket? Most would prefer to stand in a basket than on a stick, if you have to stand at all. But most of the time it will be an EMS responder, and very rarely do we need anything up in the air. The length of the truck may be the decider on this.

    Anyone use a basket and have special situations that it was helpful in?

    What about maintenance? We had two old Peirce Quints that were a nightmare for the last 5 years of their life.

    Thanks for all the input

  6. #6
    Forum Member
    dfd3dfd3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    IL
    Posts
    229

    Default

    My dept has 1 100' Ladder Tower and 3 75' sticks and all have pumps. I dont think that the LT needs a pump but our other trucks are ran in their own still and EMS territory. Our LT rarely runs ems and i wouldnt really want to as it isnt the most manueverable. In looking at what to get Id look at what u need and what you will use it for. You say you dont use your trucks on fires (id get this changed) A bucket has sooooo many more advantages over a stick on a fire You could write a book on them all. Although i like TL over arials Id say you prob should get a stick for what you will be using it for. And id try and get as much length as you can, you might not have really tall buildings but you have to look at your set backs as well.
    We have numerous 2 1/2's with setbacks that our 75' quints are barely able to reach them and thats with being up on the sidewalk, some you cant reach at all. If you could i would get a 100 or greater foot arial and when you go to replace your 104 footer get a TL then. And hopefully by then you will be using your arials on fires and you will see the need for a good TL. But for what you need right now I would go for a 100' str8 stick.

  7. #7
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    107

    Default

    Billy,
    That's a tough set of requirements. I would lean very heavy on purchasing a quint that is at least a good pumper and given the truck will run on EMS and your requirement for a single axle - I would say 75' rear mount or maybe even better would be a Sutphen 70+ mid-mount with just a straight ladder. I think given your requirments, straight ladder is the only way to go. 100' rear mount stick quint would be a good choice if you weren't talking about running 85% EMS with it. I can't see a tower no matter what the size, 70+ to 100'.

  8. #8
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    MA
    Posts
    157

    Default

    Buy a 100' Metz basket quint on a single axle. Nice aerial, and the potential for the sweetest quint hosebed ever. Actually, best hosebed period. Ever. Better than an FDNY engine style bed.

    If you don't like German rigs, how about an E-One 110' Boston style aerial. You won't be able to get a quint on a single axle, but you could probably squeek on a pump.

    If you go for a 75', the E-One sidestacker is a very nice quint. And if you end up buying a Sutphen, make sure you modify the cab first - their standard cab isn't exactly roomy. Check out Trumbull, CT's 95' Sutphen tower: TCFD.com

  9. #9
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Posts
    14

    Default

    "Now if you need to do high-rise rescues, a ladder would probably be best as you can get more down a ladder faster than a basket, just so long as you don't overload the thing."

    Not really true, The time it will take to walk down an elderly person, compared to tower ladder(which you can bring down 3 at one time) and remember also have to watch weights. MIKEY

  10. #10
    Forum Member
    PAVolunteer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Dauphin County, PA
    Posts
    1,139

    Default

    Originally posted by DocLaw
    Now if you need to do high-rise rescues, a ladder would probably be best as you can get more down a ladder faster than a basket, just so long as you don't overload the thing.
    To reiterate what Mikey said ...

    A tower will be faster, and safer, every single time ... especially if you have an unconscious victim.

    Stay Safe

  11. #11
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    MA
    Posts
    157

    Default

    billybob911:

    Does ISO say you need an additional aerial because:

    1. You are running the 104' as a quint and need another to receive full enigne/ladder credit;

    2. You need a reserve aerial for full rating credit; Or

    3. You have another zone outside of your primary ladder's district that requires an aerial for full credit in distribution?

    If the answer is #3, what is the tallest building in the zone that it will be first due truck company for?

  12. #12
    Junior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Posts
    8

    Default

    We have a 55' Pierce quint in reserve that I think we have been calling a reserve aerial. This apparently is worth some points. We are trying to sell it off, and are looking for a way to keep the points, I guess. So I think it's question 2
    The 104' Sutphen responds to structure fires only. However, question 3 is a good point. Our city has grown substantially in one direction, and its away from station 1 where the aerial is quartered. There is a thought that when a Station 7 gets built in the new part of town, the aerial at the other end will be too far away to effectively respond. There might be a call from ISO to have a second aerial then.

    Also from what Doclaw said, I wonder about the rescue abilities of a basket vs ladder. It would seem that a stokes basket onto the aerial basket would be the best way to bring down an elevated victim.
    Anyone with that experience??

  13. #13
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    MA
    Posts
    157

    Default

    If your new aerial will be a reserve aerial in the eyes of ISO, you'll need at least a 100'. Your aerial needs to be capable of reaching the roof of the tallest building in its response district, or 100', which ever is less. Your reserve aerial needs to meet the same requirements as your front line aerial.

    If you want to get credit for it as a reserve aerial, you can't get credit for it as an engine. This means you'll have to run an extra engine on all structural responses for full credit.

    ISO requires a ladder/service company within 2 1/2 miles of every building. If you are running the aerial as the first due truck in its own district, it still has to be able to reach the roofs of the tallest building in its own district (or 100'). If all of the buildings in its district are only 70', go with the Sutphen or a 75' stick. Otherwise you'll need a bigger aerial for full credit.

    If you're really concerned about reach (beyond ISO), you can get the Metz 120' basket as a quint on a single axle.

    Bottom line: Make sure you know why ISO says you need it. You'll probably end up needing a 100' or you'll be robbing yourself of ISO points on your new purchase. If you run it as a quint, make sure you have the proper mix of engines and ladders for full credit, and make sure they are getting dispatched to incidents properly, per ISO.

    Drop me a line or post if you have any specific questions.

  14. #14
    Forum Member
    PAVolunteer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Dauphin County, PA
    Posts
    1,139

    Default

    Originally posted by billybob911
    I wonder about the rescue abilities of a basket vs ladder. It would seem that a stokes basket onto the aerial basket would be the best way to bring down an elevated victim.
    I've seen Aerialscopes that actually have mounting brackets in the bucket where a stokes basket can be mounted horizontally, and locked in, for victim removal ... very safe, fast, and easy.

    Stay Safe

  15. #15
    Junior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Posts
    8

    Default

    I've never heard of METZ. I looked at some trucks on the internet. Does anyone have any first hand experience with these trucks???
    Where are they made?

  16. #16
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Posts
    309

    Default

    What I have found is that it is great to have both types of aerials. A strate stick is good for rescuse but nothing beats a tower for everything else. We have a sutphen tower 95' abd love it. For prolonged events the more space up their makes it better. We have founf that most stuff you can do with a straight stick you can do better with a bucket. Rescues are the one exception. For everything else I would say a bucket. Buckets are also good because they can be used as a command platform for the commanding officer to give him or her a complete view of the fire ground. When you step out on the roof you have a firefighter waiting for you in the bucket and can pull you in easier than if it was a stick. THe quint concept is great. If you go with sutphen I would say you made an excellent decision. Best of luck to you and your department.

  17. #17
    Forum Member
    PAVolunteer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Dauphin County, PA
    Posts
    1,139

    Default

    A strate stick is good for rescuse
    Assuming, of course, that the victim is not unconscious, elderly, unable to walk, afraid of ladders/heights, and you have someone operating the tower who does not possess the skill necessary to get the bucket to the ground in anything close to a reasonable amount of time.
    Buckets are also good because they can be used as a command platform for the commanding officer to give him or her a complete view of the fire ground.
    I don't know how many towers you have lying around, but I can't imagine that many departments have an extra tower that they could just use for someone to have a better view of the incident instead of putting it to work.
    We have founf that most stuff you can do with a straight stick you can do better with a bucket.
    Agree with you there.
    Rescues are the one exception.
    STRONGLY disagree with you there.
    THe quint concept is great.
    IF used correctly (notice the rather large "IF").

    Stay Safe

  18. #18
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Posts
    309

    Default

    I know what you mean. The part about a view platform came from a fire that happened a while back before I was a firefighter where everyone had a staight stick and they had to call an aerial in from another county 30miles away so they could get an overview of the whole situation. I have had the chance to use a tower ladder and love it. I am no where near being quailified to operate it in an emergency but the speed you can put it up and take the people down is amazing. Also I would say the the ocupents are safer in there than a straight ladder. What do you guys consider a quint. Just a ladder with a pump. I am curious.

  19. #19
    Junior Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Posts
    15

    Default

    Sticks -
    Pro's - get into tight areas, less weight, cost less, can put ladder threw window (not suppose to but oh well)
    Con's- can not have then 1 guy at a time, just in case, makes it
    abit harder to save a life or two, there is NO space to do anything but walk

    Buckets (or Ladder/tower)
    Pro's- carry more people, saver to keep people on the ladder. Put bucket on roof (Not suppose to but can), in winter more traction, can get ready for fire tacties while in motion (moving around)
    Con's- Can not get into tight spaces, cost more, weights more

    We have a 1996 E-One (POS) HP 105 tower
    (yes it has a pump and a water tank of 250 Gal's)
    Danny B
    (My old name was FirefighterDan)
    Wayne Twsp. Volunteer Fire Dept
    "Pompton Falls Co #3"
    "Lets Never Forget Our Fallen Heroes"
    9-11-01
    -PCFA Class of 2001
    Firefighter 1

  20. #20
    MembersZone Subscriber
    cfd5572's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Mn. USA
    Posts
    21

    Default Buy a platform.... & a pickup

    We have run both straight sticks and platforms. Currently running a E-One HP95 With pump and tank. I agree with the platform cons of weight, size, cost, and manueverability. Disagree with the rescue comments. Our platform has a great big, wide, tall side rails, ladder attatched to the bottom of the platform. While standing in the secure area of the basket and looking down this looks deceptively like and aerial ladder. By using the platform to evacuate people into and give them solid footing for a few seconds to collect themselves, (and you) before sending them down the ladder is much easier and safer than pulling someone out a window onto the top rung.

    As for you proposed use. From here it seems that a quint is far too much vehicle to be sending on 85% EMS calls. Due to the cost, size, wear and tear, maint., and overall stress on the driver, buy a pickup or suburban for the ems calls, and leave the ladder for it's designed duty.

    Wish you much luck.. And either way you go... God loves a truckie!

  21. #21
    MembersZone Subscriber
    e3med53's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Fergus Falls, MN
    Posts
    63

    Default

    say you go with a straight stick...then do you go mid or rear mount?

  22. #22
    Permanently Removed
    CALFFBOU's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    CA
    Posts
    6,520

    Default Quints...

    I was just breezing through the comments on
    this thread and dont really have much to say
    since looks like youre getting some good
    feedback as is. Was I was going to say
    is looks like Stuphen makes a great product
    and they specialise in quints. (So does
    PA Volunteer, he loves them (hug, hug)
    Last edited by CALFFBOU; 02-09-2003 at 01:31 AM.

  23. #23
    Forum Member
    PAVolunteer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Dauphin County, PA
    Posts
    1,139

    Default

    Originally posted by wayneman3
    Sticks -
    Pro's - can put ladder threw window
    Okay, Bou, I'll give you this one ... this is one thing I've always wanted to do w/ a stick (but haven't had the opportunity too, yet). I'd love to plant myself on the turntable and just go window to window bustin' 'em all out w/ the stick ... I'd even be okay doing it if there was a pump underneath me!

    Although, I have witnessed the once (okay, maybe more than once) in a lifetime opportunity of putting the bucket of the tower through the sliding glass doors of a room at the Holiday Inn!

    Stay Safe

  24. #24
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Posts
    309

    Default

    That sounds like fun.

  25. #25
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,701

    Default

    That sounds like fun.
    I also have witnessed the ladder through the window to break it. I then witnessed the repairs and testing that needed to be done on the ladder. Next time, we put a man up there with a pike pole...no damaged ladder, no cost, little risk.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register