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  1. #1
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    Question Which mid-mount to buy?

    Our department is looking to purchase a 95' mid mount aerial platform.
    We have looked at the pierce and really liked it. However, e-one has a 2000 demo model for significantly less money. Any pro's and con's to each would help. Needless to say each salesman says his is better.
    Just looking for input or past experiences.

    Thanks


  2. #2
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    Default

    I'm sure Station2 and some others will chime in on how E-One Aerials have never failed and why you only want an aluminum aerial etc, etc. While I can't argue with the statement that they have never had one fail because no one has offered any proof that one has, my statement is with the chassis. Because it's great that you can count on that aerial, but if the truck can't get to the scene, the aerial will have to be miles long to do any good.

    I talked to some guys from Spring VFD who replaced their entire fleet in 2001 with 7 75' Quints and 2 3500 pumper tankers, all E-One. While impressive looking as they were when I saw them in person and went through them, I heard nothing but complaints about the Quints not going into pump gear, emergency lights not working, and tons of other problems. Starting from within 30 days of delivery.

    Probably the same reason that Houston Fire Department only went to Pierce to replace their 2 Heavy Rescues. They should be hitting the street shortly as they are at the local rep getting the finishing touches before being put in service. (I was just at the plant doing sign-offs on our new rescue and new pumper.) The other reason could be that they have retro-fitted 3 engines with CAFS and not a single soap bubble has come out of any one of them. The local news did a major investigative report on HFDs E-One. Let's just say it was real bad news for E-One. And you might want to take a couple of minutes to ask why there's still a 2000 model year demo available.

    Again, I'll give kudos for the aerial to E-One, but no points for a chassis. And if you look at the price, spread it out over the years that you're going to have the truck. You'll get 20 years out of a Pierce. Maybe 12-15 out of an E-One. Just talk to some people who have spent large bills on maintenance. Don't take anyone else's word for it, including mine. Go visit with some people that have them. Go ask some independent repair facilities which brands they have the most problems with. If it's Pierce that has the most problems, then by all means, buy the E-One. If they say go with Sutphen then buy them. If it's KME, Pierce, Spartan, whoever, go with them.

    Just in case you haven't been around the forums too long, manufacturer flag waving type forum threads usually end up with a ton of name calling and very little substance. So don't put too much weight on anything said here. Go out and get your own opinions in person. Legwork stinks, but when you spend the kind of money it costs to get these trucks and you're going to have it for years, you don't want to have any regrets about not asking any questions.

    Stay safe, and good luck on the research

    Brian

  3. #3
    Forum Member SCOOBY14B's Avatar
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    Default SUTPHEN

    Sutphen makes the best mid-mount out there. We have 5 inservice now with no problems (3-95', 2-75')

  4. #4
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    Default E-One ?

    The reason there is a demo is available is that only 60% of demo customers buy their units. I would imagine the price on your demo is still pretty high because it is an E-One. That should tell you how the market values them.

    While BC79er makes a good point, lets look at the facts.

    1. Every maker has built a dud at some point.

    2. In some heavy duty aplications only Heavy-Duty chasis should be used. On the E-One mid95' its not an issue. Cyclone will do just fine. There is a reason only the 95s are offered on the Cyclone and not the 105'. The Huricane from E-One and Lance from Pierce are really the only truly Heavy-Duty rigs on the market.

    3. Spring Texas bought single axel trucks . They bought em' , now they gotta live with em'.

    4. It should be said that some dealerships are not very good. I do not know the dealership in Houston, but it is worth noting that E-One has changed several in the past few years because of service concerns. If the dealer modified trucks already in service; and then there were problems, its hard to blame the maker.

    5. E-Ones only good for 12-15 years? GET REAL PAL! The Cyclone and all the other medium-duty chasis on the road will last at least 15-18, probably even 20. Even Pierce made mediums. (By the way, a local central Arizona department has both old and new Pierces; thier expierience is the same with all other departments with other makes. Maintaining truck companies is expensive.)

    6. The case for E-One purchase is simple. Resale value. If you want to know how the market judges quality, look at resale. E-One leads the way.

  5. #5
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    Default

    I agree, everyone's made a dud. But making more than one and having them all end up at the same department is kind of a bad thing. I'm not quite sure what single axle trucks have to do with bad PTOs and the truck not going into pump gear. Or not starting. Or lights not working and shutting off in mid-run. After being serviced and charged for that service every time.

    If a dealer is doing a retrofit, it will be to manufacturer specifications, because that's where all of the equipment to do the retrofit, as well as the engineering knowledge will come from. If a manufacturer doesn't give that information or support to their dealers, that means there's no such thing as post sale customer service. I don't know about the rest of you, but if I dropped a few hundred thousand on a truck (like a whole city worth), I'd want some ongoing quality service from the manufacturer.

    Good for them for dumping bad dealers. Hopefully everyone does it.
    Brian P. Vickers
    www.vickersconsultingservices.com
    Emergency Services Consulting
    Westlake VFD - Houston, TX
    Proud Member IACOJ - Redneck Division

  6. #6
    Senior Member bfd5229's Avatar
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    Default E-ONE!!!

    E-one is the only way to go

    1. thick outer walls, roof, and floor for maximum occupant protection and superior corrosion resistance.
    2. Aluminum body for light weight and corrosion resistance
    3. 45į front wheel cut, left and right, for excellent maneuverability
    4. Enclosed storage for up to 115 feet of ground ladders


    E-One vehicles feature extensive compartment storage to hold a substantial amount of fire fighting and rescue equipment.As standard, all E-One trucks feature stainless steel plumbing for superior water flow efficiencies and corrosion resistance. With the best warranty package in the industry, E-One vehicles have a 10-year body structural warranty, a 10-year stainless steel plumbing warranty, a 10-year paint warranty, a 20-year aerial device structural warranty, a lifetime corrosion perforation warranty and a lifetime water tank warranty.
    -JEFF G

    RES49CUE
    Raritan Twp,NJ

    49-56
    "Have Jaws, Will Travel"

  7. #7
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    Default

    I am only going to reply on this thread because my name was mentioned (In a somewhat sarcastic fashion, LOL).

    BC79er:

    Spring VFD: Been there, seen them, ridden on them, pumped them, operated them, know the Fire Chief. Don't blame E-One for something that a past administration speced and E-One built. Let me put it this way, the current Chief and guys would do things alot diffently. No matter what, you could have delivered those rigs with Pierce plates on them and the guys would be bad mouthing Pierce. Poor Spec + Multitude of gadgets = Trouble. I can have their Chief call you and go over it all with you if you like. Let me know.

    Houston Lance Rescues: Already looked over Rescue Co. 42. Very nice and big with lots of storage space, yada, yada, yada. But, don't presume that because you saw them at the Pierce factory that you know why Pierce got the contract. Probably had little to do with E-One pumpers and ladders already in HFD.

    Houston CAFS pumpers: Your comments on this one crack me up. I drove one of those "wonder CAFS pumpers" for 24hrs on Thursday as we have one assigned to our station. We were out of service for 8 hours (Rookie training, etc.) and we still made 13 runs. At 05:32 hrs on Friday our little fire truck that could made "bubbles" as you would say. So, don't believe all the hype brother. Is it a perfect system? Nope. Are there better ways to retrofit? Yep. Like not at all or at the least a PTO version instead of an indepedent engine version. Are they going to be troublesome over the long haul? I think they will be. Did E-One tell them they had to use this model and type and only this one? Nope. The local dealer actually recommended a PTO version. No less than 5 hours ago, face to face, the owner of the local E-One dealership was at one of my volunteer departments stations. The topic of CAFS came up and he said they recommended a different version that used a PTO. The customer wanted the other so thats what they got. Don't blame E-One for following the customers request. Hypothetically, if you wanted a lightbar mounted vertically in the middle of the pump panel Pierce would do it eventhough they could see no reason why. If they didn't you would raise hell with them until they met your specs and what you, the customer, wanted. E-One is no different. The customer said we want model "B" and thats what they got instead of the recommended model "A".

    Longevity: Lets not kid ourselves. If you do proper maintenance on your rigs, they'll last a long, long time no matter maker. I can tell you this though. You give me a choice between a 12 year old E-One aerial and a 5 year old Pierce aerial and I'll take the E-One all day long. Anyone on this site can see pictures of BOTH Pierce and E-One rigs that are 20 years old in any fire service magazine you pick up. Knock off the "E-One won't last" line please.

    Opinions: Your right about one thing. Alot of hot air is exchanged on here. LOL, me included. And if you call me an "E-One Flag Waiver" its fine with me. But, one thing you'll notice. I have never waivered and dropped my flag. My volunteer department started buying E-One about 1997 when we started specing our current rescue rig. We currently have 3 and our next 2 will continue to be E-One rigs. Can you say that? Your Engine 1 is a Quality, Engine 2 is a Quality and Engine 3 is a KME. I am not knocking you or your department at all, that is what worked for your department when they were bought. My point is simple. You don't have a Pierce in service in your department. You don't have an E-One in service in your department. You have no hands on, 03:00 in the morning, ridden on them and pumped them experience with either to bash one and exhalt the praises of the other. It helps alot if you have some experience with the rigs, and in this case maker, that you are bashing BEFORE you bash them.

    Not to be taken personally. Just my opinions.

    Stay low and move it in.
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


    Larry

  8. #8
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    Default Is the problem single axels?

    I have heard that the problems with alot of E-One HP75' trucks is single axels. Is it true? I have not heard any problems around here. Only a few around here. Anyone know wether the HP75s are better than other makers single axels? Glendale,AZ bought a 75' with tandems. I would really like to know more about single axel E-Ones. Only have experience on 95' platforms and 50' Telebooms, and the tandem 75'.

    Thanks.
    Stay Safe.
    Later.

  9. #9
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    Default

    BFD - Its obvious you are a E-one fan and thats great but I would like to point out some facts regarding your post.

    There are many manufacturers that utilize 3/6" aluminum as E-one does in certain areas of there body. Aluminum is a better product for corrosion resistance when compared to steel but the best product available is stainless steel for corrosion. Many manufacturers offer a front cramp angle of 45 degrees or better. You state stainless steel plumbing for superior water flow efficiences - ?? Are you saying water flows better through stainless than it does in brass or galvaneal pipe. I agree stainless piping is nice but why do they use cheap 10 gauge s.s. pipe when other manufacturers offer schedule 40 s.s. pipe. ( the answer is because is thin and bendable for quick installation ).
    As far as the other warranties, most aerial manufacturers are the same. 20 years on the aerial device, 7 - 10 years on paint, and everyone offers lifetime water tank warranties.

    I don't mean to bad mouth your post, but the statements you made about E-one are commonplace in the industry.

  10. #10
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    Default

    Rescuemaster, no doubt you are right about corrosion resistance supremecy going to stainless.

    Aerials: What maker builds an aerial out of stainless, if you want to call it that. It is touted as such but actually rusts and is magnetic. Rust + Magnetic = Poor, low quality stainless.

    Bodies: Nice corrosion resistence, but the cost of the thing makes it prohibitive to many departments. And then there is the weight of a stainless body compared to one made of aluminum, or steel, or galvaneel, etc.

    The need for stainless: Is a stainless body really needed? It is all well and good to have the money to buy it and the roads and bridges to hold it, but why stop there if it is so great? If aluminum is so inferior then why do the "Steel kings" build these self proclaimed indestructable bodies and then turn around and mount them with aluminum cabs? Shouldn't they be designing and engineering a stainless steel cab and chassis to go with the stainless body? Or do they not do so because it would have to be on a huge chassis, wouldn't be road legal due to weight or is it the prospective pricing would be too much for the market to tolerate?

    As for other more common features offered by E-One, alot of them are offered by other makers.

    Just some thoughts.

    Stay low and move it in.
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


    Larry

  11. #11
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    Default

    We started buying E-One back in 1991. Which was our ladder. 75' Single axial stick. Never had any problems with it. Pumping was great and nothing failed. The Ladder still ops. like it was new and it still looks new. Everyone saids that E-Ones are bad, my you just dont take care of it enough. Now we have 3 E-One is Service. The ladder and 2 engines. We are going to keep the ladder for about 10 more years.
    Rob aka Squinty

    The Fighting Seventy-Third

    Westville Fire Department
    Gloucester County
    New Jersey

  12. #12
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    Default

    Station2 - I was referring to the use of s.s. on the body - not the aerial device. It is true that s.s. is heavier and that can be a issue of concern, especially on aerials. Typically its price vs. aluminum is not a huge differece. On know our last pumper we purchased the upcharge for s.s. was $ 7500.00 on a $ 350,000 vehicle.
    We chose aluminum and have had no regrets.

    As far as cab construction, you are correct. I suppose its because s.s. is difficult to weld and work with and cabs have many design features that would be expensive to build using s.s.

  13. #13
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    Default

    Take a look a Seagrave the make a high quality truck and are also made in wisconsin so you won't be sending your truck to florida if it has to be fixed by the factory .

  14. #14
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    Default Stainless better?

    Stainless will rust just like aluminum will(white rust ,corosion), although not as fast.The big diference is that you can corosion proof aluminum with products like ACF-50 Corosion block, and other chemicals made for the aircraft industry. My new plane (kitbuilt RV-8) came from the factory corosion proofed, but I will probably have it blocked in the next 2-3 years. Are there any anti-rust chemicals for stainless? Are they affordable? In airplanes it is easily managed. Even when airplanes are left outside(for shame,you bastards who leave your baby outside).

    FYI. Stainless welds are more prone to stress cracking before aluminum will. Stainless (and regular carbon steel) are more brittle than aluminum. Thats why E-One aerials dont crack as soon as steel. E-One even said as much years ago in ads. They implied that was a leading reason they went with aluminum(I say implied because some of you are probably better informed than I and I dont want to step on any toes). Aluminum welds are strong yet soft when compared to steel. The expansion and contraction of the welds causes stress fractures in all ladders. Just not as fast with aluminum because it is less brittle.

    Just thinking outloud

    Stay Safe.
    Later.

  15. #15
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    Default

    STATION2 - I wasn't calling you a flag waver. Then again I guess I was calling all of us flag wavers. My point was that this will turn into a Chevy/Ford/Dodge type debate and whatever substance can be learned might get lost.

    The can't make a bubble part of HFDs trucks was misguided because I got my info from one of our day crew guys who drives one of the retro'd trucks down to the fire field all of the time and can't get it to work. He stated that it was E-One's recommended unit, which prompted that part of my post. I didn't see much reason to question the guy who watched it all be put together.

    The lesson: from the HFDs units, ignore the manufacturers recommendation, and you'll have problems for a reason (DUH). I went to school for a few years for engineering. All of the manufacturers are full of Dilberts. They know their stuff, so when they tell you to use something, use it. None of them ever do anything without testing. It's the only time they're let out of the cubicles and have fun.

    The other lesson: from Spring, as you said put too many bells and whistles on a truck and you will have problems no matter who's badge it is. Spec intelligently. Just because it's the latest and greatest doesn't mean it will actually get used or work the way the marketing materials say they will.

    No my dept here has no Pierce of E-One. Contrary to a popular belief, there are fire departments outside of Texas, and I ran with one for 7 years, and had close relationships with 15 mutual aid departments. So my experience covers Pierce, E-One, Sutphen, Quality, KME, 4 Guys, American LaFrance and several others. As with most things, those with problems talk more often than those that are happy. One of iour mutual aids bought nothing but E-One and never had a burp out of them. One bought one and sold the thing after 3 years. No complaints from Sutphen or KME. Philly buys all KME and ALF and I've never heard any bitchin there.

    Anywho, don't want to go on too long since there is a productive discussion going on.

    And just to add one more voice to the aluminum part, I've heard from a ton of people up north that aluminum cabs last a lot longer in colder weather because of the more pliable nature of the metal. Not as many stress fractures as compared to steel, especially if you have rough roads. Especially PA. The only reason you know that you're hit the Delaware state line on I-95 is your teeth stop rattling. PA prides itself on not having potholes. Because they're too big to call holes, they're pot-craters.

  16. #16
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    BC79er, I understand. Now keep in mind, the Engine we have made bubbles the time I needed it to. I can not say that they all will when needed to, LOL. The three (3) they have in service (Engine Co.'s 04, 26 and 68) are spread out and will be interesting to see how they work in the long run. I hope the new pumper and rescue work out well for you. I will come by and see them when I am working my side job out there. Where are the new rigs gonna go?

    Stay low and move it in.
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


    Larry

  17. #17
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    The Rescue is going out of Station 1 since that's the most central. And Highway 6 at Bellaire is going to continue to be the accident capital of the Southwest. It's not a complete shift unless we've been there at least once. The Pumper is going out to Station 3 at 1093 and Mason. We've got the oldest pumper out there, and it will take back-up out of 1's over 15 minutes to get there. 2's even longer since they're technically inside city limits. So the CAFS will help us out with the Lone Ranger syndrome. Delivery should be sometime in June. Hopefully Wisconsin is out of the cold weather by then. 6 degrees and 30mph winds. Don't miss that part of living up north. We need to petition all of the manufacturers to move to Hawaii or something so we can go on inspection trips there.

    Hopefully all manufacturers get up to the point of not having duds. To much time, money, and most importantly, lives, are at risk when apparatus doesn't work because of bad design or assembly.

  18. #18
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    Default Houston CAFS

    You guys have stated that HFD uses a seperate engine for CAFS. Who came up with that idea? Is it Hale or Pnuemax? Amd more importantly, if the manufacturer and the local dealer said not to, WHO THE HELL DECIDED TO IGNORE THEM? If you can't listen to the maker and service represenative of your trucks, should you really be in a position to spec and or buy them? Out here in the valley almost all departments allow the folks who ride the rigs to spec them. Sure, I can hear the chorus about how we went a little crazy with the mid and rear engine idea.lol. Who decides what to buy and how to spec them in your area?

  19. #19
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    Default Back to the discussion....

    Lets go back the the mid-mounts....
    I think it is safe to say that almost every mid-mount has one big adverse condition that I think everyone that is considering these units should realize:

    Pierce and KME: 2 sets of jacks with wide setup
    Aerialscope: No real aerial ladder
    E-One: Want a pump? Sorry, not in a 10' door
    ALF: 4 outgoing jacks AND front Jacks (and 2' shorter if anyone cares)
    Sutphen: Very large rear overhang
    (Not too familiar with the Ferrara or Smeal product)

    At first read you may say, 1) I know more (and so do I) or 2) that doesn't concern me. A 10' door might not be an issue and the jacks might be of liking to you in a tight setting (E-One), or it could be you do not have cramped streets and the bucket or jacks might be alright (examples, or course).

    Still goes back to what works for you and not the people on these forums because we don't drive your streets, know your operators, or even your priorities. Also, I am a firm believer that a what you feel is the best truck is still only as good as the service center that works on it. Period.

    A little rewind....The statement that the hurricane and lance are the heavy-duty chassis is not accurate. The hurricane is used on the HP105 to keep the unit below 12', to the best of my knowledge. A cyclone can handle the same load. Also the lance, dash, and quantum chassis are all able to be used for the same purposes. In fact, I believe the Quantum has 21" frame rails (like a IH school bus). Typhoon, Saber, and Metropolitan are the "medium-duty" class.

  20. #20
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    Default

    I got to agree with Rotoray on this. The Cyclone is used more by choice than necessity. My volunteer department has a 95' ladder tower on a Cyclone II chassis and thats not exactly a medium duty rig. I have also heard that they (E-One) is engineering the Cyclone II for their 105' ladder tower. The medium duty chassis by E-One would be the Typhoon and for Pierce the medium duty is the Saber and Contender I believe. Just some thoughts.

    Stay low and move it in.
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


    Larry

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