1. #26
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    Originally posted by fflynn17
    We all have our own beliefs or non-beliefs.

    I choose to not say the word "god" when I pledge my allegiance to my country.

    If YOU want to say the word "god" when YOU pledge YOUR allegiance to this country, it doesn't hurt me, so go ahead and do so.

    Our LAWS protect both of our positions, which is one of the wonderful things about this country.

    The woman with the rag over her face needs to take a new drivers licence picture, our LAWS state that it is for identification purposes. If someone does not like the LAWS in this country, they should go somewhere where the laws fit their beliefs.
    Some of the most sensible thoughts posted here yet.
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    Default Wow...

    I wasnt looking to start some religious war
    here. I just agree with the article. If you
    odnt like it here in the the USA, dont let
    the door hit your rump on the way out...

    LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT!

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    Lightbulb A little history lesson.....

    [i]But the fact remains the same; we are a diverse country, and everybody deserves a secular, non-biased government that is capable and willing to serve its peoples equally. Religion, especially the Christian religion, is not in the least concerned with that.[/B]

    Do know where the belief of separation of chruch and state, you so mentioned oringinated? I don't think you do. They begain in the 15th century, with a Protestant RELIGIOUS group known as Anabaptist. They believed that church should be separate from the affairs of state. You see at that time period, the Catholic chruch (no offence to Catholics) had there hands in almost all the governments in Europe. Well to make a long story short, some of these Anabaptist made a journey on a ship called the Mayflower, and landed at a place named Pymonth Rock. I'm sure you're familier with that story, right? Those people were some of the founders of our country, and are still around today. You may know them as Omish, Quakers, or Minites. These people, who are Christains, and believe in the same God as I, found the basis of that separation you speak so highly of. So if you are trying to say that religion has NOTHING to do with America, then think again.

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    Default Re: A little history lesson.....

    Originally posted by loxfire6016



    Do know where the belief of separation of chruch and state, you so mentioned oringinated? I don't think you do. They begain in the 15th century, with a Protestant RELIGIOUS group known as Anabaptist. They believed that church should be separate from the affairs of state. You see at that time period, the Catholic chruch (no offence to Catholics) had there hands in almost all the governments in Europe. Well to make a long story short, some of these Anabaptist made a journey on a ship called the Mayflower, and landed at a place named Pymonth Rock. I'm sure you're familier with that story, right? Those people were some of the founders of our country, and are still around today. You may know them as Omish, Quakers, or Minites. These people, who are Christains, and believe in the same God as I, found the basis of that separation you speak so highly of. So if you are trying to say that religion has NOTHING to do with America, then think again.
    Egads!

    It's Plymouth Rock and Pilgrims!

    The Amish and the Mennonites are not of English descent, they originally came from Germany.

    The only thing that gets me more ticked off than someone spouting about religion is when they get the facts wrong!

    PS: I agree with Bou entirely (except for "tactical tupperware" )
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    Hey, guess what? Those early Christians were the ones who burned, drowned, and tortured people just because they were different or were supposedly "witches." Religion does one thing well; it separates people. And I resent being labeled a racist. I tire of Christians and their Jesus is Love one day, then invoking the wrath of the Old Testiment "god" the next. Leave religion out of government, just like the founders wanted. Sure, many of them were religious. But they were all of different faiths. The reason they didn't want religion in our government was because they didn't want Catholics murdering Protestants, or any one sect of a religion taking power over the other. This is what had gone on in Europe for hundreds, if not thousands of years. We ALL know who the "god" on our currency and in our pledge (an officially adopted pledge) is supposed to be...the CHRISTIAN "god" and no other. Don't believe me? Look up what ol' Ike said when the congress rammed their hysterics down America's throat. What about Pagan Americans? WHO CARES! What about Native Americans? WHO CARES! What about Muslim Americans? WHO CARES! What about Buddist Americans? WHO CARES! What about Hindu Americans? WHO CARES? What about Atheist/Agnostic Americans? WHO CARES! This is a "Christian" country and they can all just "get the hell out", right? You people live a fantasy world of your own making, and the rest of us be damned. Christianity is NOT a tolerant religion if it is practised as the "bible" commands. It endorses slavery, mistreatment of women, murder (as long as it's in the name of "god"), geneocide, hate, and arrogance. Of course, Christians don't see it...they can't see the forest for the trees. I'm supposed to retract my "blanket statement" about Christianity while you people sit there and tell me and millions of other Americans to "get out of the country"??? HA! Don't think this has anything to to with the fire service? Sorry; it affects all aspects of my life, and millions of other's lives, too. All I'm asking our government is that they remove their "god" from the proceedings, just like the Constitution says to do. It won't stop anyone from "practicing" their religion at all. But, the fact that they refuse to even consider it proves that they are being arrogant and flexing their political might in direct contradiction with what the law says. When I saw all those congress people standing on the steps of the capital, a place where millions of people of ALL faiths and beliefs have died to preserve, shouting out "one nation under god"....THEIR "god", it made me SICK. If you want to live in a theocracy, MOVE TO IRAN and see how YOU feel living under someone else's "god." Bet you wouldn't like it, either.

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    Default Re: Re: A little history lesson.....

    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Captain Gonzo
    [B]

    "It's Plymouth Rock and Pilgrims!"

    -Sorry about the spelling errors, I was in a bit of a hurry.

    "The Amish and the Mennonites are not of English descent, they originally came from Germany."

    -I never said they didn't. I said they came here and never mention anything about English decent. I am very aware the the Protestant movement started in Germany with Martin Luther. Once again spelling errors, but I think that my point was made. Which was that this country does have, small as it my be, a basis on religion.

    "The only thing that gets me more ticked off than someone spouting about religion is when they get the facts wrong!"

    -Would you like to challenge me to any other history contest? I'm up for it
    Last edited by loxfire6016; 03-06-2003 at 06:28 PM.

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    WOW!! How this thread has degenerated! Nozzleman- I only asked for a retraction of your contention the all cristians are ramming it down your throat. Or some such...... I am not now, nor have I ever pushed others to believe what I believe. I'm sorry you have a BOULDER on your shoulder regarding this issue.

    As for the woman's DL picture; show your face for pete's sake!
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    In my opinion, she should have removed her scarf/veil/whatever for her photo for the identification purposes that driver's licenses serve. But, I'm pretty sure that, here in Tennessee, people who are senior citizens aren't required to have their photos on their licenses. Don't really know what the reasoning behind this is. I suppose that if she had her license made without her photo and she is stopped for a routine traffic stop, the officer would have every reason to arrest her on the spot (which is what really happens when you are given a ticket...you are arrested and released with your stating that you will show up for court or pay the fine) take her to the station and finger-print her to confirm her identity. I also know for a fact that in our city it is against the law/ordinance to conceal your face while in the general public, such as wearing a ski-mask for no apparant reason, ie: cold weather. Seems like such a law would be discriminating agains Muslim women who choose to conceal their faces when in public. I believe this law was passed years ago to prevent the Ku Klux Klan from wearing their masks during their "meetings" in town. Old laws like this have a way of coming back to start trouble, long after the "problem" they were created to resolve is gone.

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    "The Amish and the Mennonites are not of English descent, they originally came from Germany."
    Originally posted by loxfire6016 in response to Gonzo's post quoted above:I never said they didn't. I said they came here and never mention anything about English decent.
    Actually, you did...in a way.
    Well to make a long story short, some of these Anabaptist made a journey on a ship called the Mayflower, and landed at a place named Pymonth Rock. I'm sure you're familier with that story, right? Those people were some of the founders of our country, and are still around today. You may know them as Omish, Quakers, or Minites.
    The original Pilgrims were actually Puritan Separatists not Anabaptists (they originated in Switzerland, not England, by the way), and were from a Nottinghamshire village called Scrooby or Scooby, or something like that. The point is that they were entirely English men and women that broke from the Church of England.

    The Anabaptists actually didn't arrive until the 1680's, around 60 years (give or take a couple) after the Pilgrims.

    So, when you said that, "You may know them as Omish, Quakers, or Minites", it was implied that the Amish, Quakers, and Mennonites were decendants of the Pilgrims, and as such were English.
    Last edited by Steamer; 03-06-2003 at 11:29 PM.
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    Unhappy

    What were we talkin about again?????????
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    Considering the direction this one is going is it really worth remembering?

    Did the sailors on the Mayflower drink alcohol while on watch, or did they shut off their pagers?
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    Default Re: Wow...

    Originally posted by CALFFBOU
    I wasnt looking to start some religious war
    here. I just agree with the article. If you
    odnt like it here in the the USA, dont let
    the door hit your rump on the way out...

    LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT!
    Oh..I must of missed that part of my oath that said I would support and defend the dictatorship of the United States...

    I do remember something along the lines of...
    "I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will fight to the death your right to say it."

    Personally? I think the Federal Gov't is completely out of control and is abusing the Constitution massively. I believe that Washington is controlling ENTIRELLY way too much of my day to day life, and want them out. Makes this country beautiful. A- I can say that, and not be arrested, executed or persecuted for feeling that way. And B- I can change it.

    Not everybody who talks ill of the Gov't and the country don't want to be here. I want my Gov't to be run the way it was set up. Not the shadow of it that is in power now, and has been for the past 15-20 years.

    Doc
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    hmm hinduism is a library of all religions so they can stay


    buddhism is a seperation from hinduism only thing differnet is the social caste system

    Islam is a religion taht is so tied into Christianity and Judism its a suprise they dont realise they are the same religion


    but i guess what i say has no meaning so dont count any of this as crebible

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    "Maybe you'd like to move to Iran".Got no interest in moving there but I could probably be talked into a flyby in a LOADED '52.I have a solution to some of our issues.Bring ALL of our troops home.Bring EVERY SINGLE FOREIGN AID PENNY home and keep it here.LOCK the borders and put AMERICANS back to work.This would eliminate the deficit,lower our taxes,and let the scwabblers sort it out on their own.Old Roosevelt wasn't too far off.Walk softly and carry a big CLUB.(sticks too small)T.C.

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    I like the cut of your jib young man!!
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    Originally posted by FireSarge
    Islam is a religion taht is so tied into Christianity and Judism its a suprise they dont realise they are the same religion
    HUH?
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    Originally posted by Rescue101
    I have a solution to some of our issues.Bring ALL of our troops home.Bring EVERY SINGLE FOREIGN AID PENNY home and keep it here.LOCK the borders and put AMERICANS back to work.This would eliminate the deficit,lower our taxes,and let the scwabblers sort it out on their own.
    R101 - While I know where you're coming from, being an Isolationist Nation has many drawbacks. First, if there is a war, it's on your doorstep, not the otherside of the planet. Second, "locking the borders" sounds good, until you realize exactly what that means. Forget the hundreds of miles not watched on the Canada/Mexico land borders. How many illegal non-terrorists make it into this country EVERY DAY by Pacific and Atlantic ports and waterways.

    True, the foreign aid the U.S. continues to throw down that bottomless pit seems frightening, but keep this in mind. Countries like Russia need captial to survive. If we don't help them out, they will have to come up with unique alternatives, like "Honest Ivan's 1/2 off Nukes".

    As for religion, the great thing is that everyone can believe what they want. The funny thing is when people argue too strongly, pro or con, they sound like idiots and lose a lot of credibility.

    And finally.....driving is a privilege. You don't want to remove your vail....take the bus.

    FG
    Last edited by Firegod343; 03-07-2003 at 06:29 PM.
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    Default Re: Re: Wow...

    Originally posted by johnusn978a


    Oh..I must of missed that part of my oath that said I
    would support and defend the dictatorship of the United
    States...

    I do remember something along the lines of...
    "I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will
    fight to the death your right to say it."

    Personally? I think the Federal Gov't is completely out of control and is abusing the Constitution massively. I believe that Washington is controlling ENTIRELLY way too much of my day to day life, and want them out. Makes this country beautiful. A- I can say that, and not be arrested, executed or persecuted for feeling that way. And B- I can change it.

    Not everybody who talks ill of the Gov't and the country don't want to be here. I want my Gov't to be run the way it was set up. Not the shadow of it that is in power now, and has been for the past 15-20 years.

    Doc
    DC2, ex-FDNY (E74)
    Hey Doc, I dont want to get into it with you or anyone else.
    But, you missed a line in my quote....Love it or leave it.
    I would tell anyone- you dont like it here, get the F out!
    Including anyone who demands to wear a costume for a
    drivers license picture or wants the test written in their
    home language.

    I am proud to be an American and that did not fade a year
    after 9/11. Hell, I was proud BRFORE 9/11. I registered
    for selective service BEFORE I was 18? (long, long time
    ago) Why? Because it was not only the law but my proud duty.

    Call the US Government a "dictatorship" is a little far. You
    got the freedom to say that, but brother FREEDOM ISNT FREE.
    Thousands of people died so you could type that.

    Hey, I might like tactical tupperware and be from California.
    Yeah, I am not perfect, and got a big mouth in here. But I
    Love America pre-9/11 and after and thats good enough!!

    Peace!

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    Hehe FG,I was being a bit sarcastic.However I ask you to consider this,If we did bring ALL our troops home they could probably easily secure the borders.Should stir up a bit of debate,Eh?T.C.

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    Default Re: Re: Re: Wow...

    Originally posted by CALFFBOU


    Hey Doc, I dont want to get into it with you or anyone else.
    But, you missed a line in my quote....Love it or leave it.
    I would tell anyone- you dont like it here, get the F out!

    I am proud to be an American and that did not fade a year
    after 9/11

    Call the US Government a "dictatorship" is a little far. You
    got the freedom to say that, but brother FREEDOM ISNT FREE.
    Thousands of people died so you could type that.
    People disagree. Fact of life. Is what she did extreme? Yes. Do I agree with it? Personally no. I think they bent the rules too much for her. But you know what? It was there CHOICE to do it. Just like I don't get mad at a 60year old lefty cashing a check from the Yankees for 12million a year if the owner CHOOSES to pay him that. The immagrants who come here and demand crap, I have a problem with. But if an immagrant ASKS for something and gets it, don't direct your anger at THEM. The government CHOOSE to give it to them. Direct your anger where it belongs. Not to the person who asks, but to the person who gives. Good example, a parent who gets mad at a spoiled child. Who spoiled the child in the first place?

    As for this..."Call the US Government a "dictatorship" is a little far. You
    got the freedom to say that, but brother FREEDOM ISNT FREE.
    Thousands of people died so you could type that"

    More and more of your individual freedoms are being taken away from you. It isn't as far off as you think it is. And as much as my Brothers in New York, and my brother serviceman died for freedom, they did NOT die so that we would all follow the leader. They did NOT die so that people who be persecuted, hated or displaced because they didn't agree with the "party line". If they died for that, there would be very little Irish, German and Italians in the United States today. Because they would have all been driven from places that they settled in with the "You don't like the US, get out attitude/you aren't like us, get out attitude"

    I do not post what I post to make anyone "mad" or upset. I try and look at everything objectivelly and fairly. Look beyond the lines, and accept that maybe you are not 100% right, just like I accept that I am not 100%. Be fair, and most of all, don't do what our ancestors did with the Irish or the German immagrant. Don't judge the group by the individual. That is freedom, and thats what people died for. Maybe you can learn as much from them, as they can from you.

    Doc
    DC2, ex-FDNY (E74)

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    I just wonder when in most Universities and Media outlets being an American became something to feel guilty about. I have a hard time believing freedom of speech and religion, the right to own a firearm and go hunting or defend yourself, a right to work hard and succeed, or the right to be free is something I should be ashamed about. And unlike those elitists, I actually wore the uniform of an American serviceman and spent time in the gulf during the war. So just maybe, I may actually have more of a right to comment on the flaws of America, unlike those who have sat back and just enjoyed the free ride.
    Does America have it's flaws, of course it does, but does that mean we have to throw in the towel and give up being who we are, hell no. I know to, much to the dismay of some of those elitists, I'm proud to be an American. If that makes those pathetic little countries of France and Germany not like me, so be it. I hope you are proud to support terrorism.
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    I think what this guy meant about the "In God We Trust" thing was yeah we have religous freedom but this country was founded on Christian principals and if you dont like it oh well get out...not that everyone should become a Christian. Thats just how I interpreted it and I think thats how he meant it.
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    islam is the religion muslims follow

    and ishmael was the ancestor of Muhammad
    and the brother of Issac son of Abraham


    Issac is the father of Judism oor the Jewish religion

    Isgnael is father of Islam and Mulsim religion

    Christianity is the one God in a trinity the son the father adn the spirit


    all three are tied together with blood or with the fact that Christ was here for the jewish salvation and was persicuted for it then was resurrected

    all 3 religions are the same or closely related

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    Originally posted by firefightermatt
    I think what this guy meant about the "In God We Trust" thing was yeah we have religous freedom but this country was founded on Christian principals and if you dont like it oh well get out...not that everyone should become a Christian. Thats just how I interpreted it and I think thats how he meant it.

    So let me get this right, If I do not like something about our country then I should get the **** out right. So the next time that you disagree with a law or tax, or anything, then you should get the **** out. Your intolerance amazes me.

    The intolerance of religion amazes me, and I do not believe that was what our country was founded on. The men that founded this country may all have been church going men, but they thought out side their box, and created a country where their religion was not the law. But rather a place where they could all have there own separate religions and beliefs.

    It pains me to see people place there religion at such an elevated level that they believe so strong that if you are not with us then you must get out of the country.

    So if you are against handguns you must get out.

    I have had at least 1 family member or more in every war since the civil war of this country. I have given 12 years already and I have many more to give to make sure that this country is a land where people can have thoughts and beliefs that are not always the same, and not have to worry about being persecuted for them.

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    I am now done posting to this thread. It serves no purpose except to cause division among us and hard feelings. Does it matter? Of course. DO I want to debate religion? NO. You won't change anyones minds. Should that woman have her face covered in her DL picture? Hell no.

    I am outta here to go discuss something that matters.........leather vs. Tupperware!

    Peace out!!
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