1. #76
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    Originally posted by Airborne
    No on has yet to justify here the reason for religion having a right to be there.
    In your mind, you are correct. In my mind, you are not correct. Basically, all we are left with is "I'm right", "No, I'm right" and round and round it goes.
    Originally posted by Airborne
    a reason that you think religion should be part of our school system and our government.
    Here is one ... Religion teaches morality. Morality is good for everyone. Can one be moral without religion (in a secular sense)? Yes. Would it be much more succesful when backed by religion? Yes.

    There is my reasoning. Some agree, some disagree. There is no hard, concrete proof. That is the beauty of religion. If there was hard, concrete, irrefutable proof, then religion would be easy. As a result, religion is not easy. Religion is not a concept grasped in the mind. It is not a logical, analytical thing. It is more of an emotion and a conviction. Hence, discussions, while they may plant the seeds, rarely turn anyone to religion. Did that make any sense?

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    Nicely said Bou

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    Establishment of religion means just that; an establishment. Nowhere does it state "establishment of a state/national religion." The word "establishment" means a christian establishment, a Muslim establishment, or any other establishment. No religion is to be held in higher esteem than another. Religion is not needed to run our government. Morals can be taught without religion. Our government wasn't designed after anything in the bible...quite the contrary. The bible is FULL of intolerance, murder, injustices towards men and women, torture, and imperialism. Those who state that the bible is where we get our morals from should read it more often. If you took everything that is good about the bible, you could put it all on two pages...the rest is war, pestilance, disease, mass murder, and absurdities. It was SECULAR law that brought us out of the dark ages of religious government control. That was the design of our Constitution. No longer does the government rule by the "good" book. We can no longer torture, murder, execute, disfigure, or committ geneocide in the name of "god." We now have science and medicine to heal our sick and injured, not arrogant priests. No longer do we penalize men and women who dare explore science and come up with wonderful new ways of doing things and solving problems. Anyone who wants the "bible" back in our schools and government should actually READ it...ALL of it. As for me, I prefer to teach our children the truths and facts of science and discovery...not the ignorant beliefs of barbarians who lived two thousand years ago. You are free to exercise whatever religious belief you have; so long as it doesn't harm anyone else. If "god" wants religion to exist and flourish, then "he" should be able to pull it off without any help from the government...or my tax dollars.

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    Originally posted by PAVolunteer
    Here is one ... Religion teaches morality. Morality is good for everyone. Can one be moral without religion (in a secular sense)? Yes. Would it be much more succesful when backed by religion? Yes.
    Well, it must not teach much on arrogance.....or ignorance for that matter. I will put up my morals and ethics learned from my agnostic parents to any given to you through religion.

    While I have no problem with my kids learning (and possibly following) a religion, I don't rely on schools to provide a moral compass for them. THAT'S MY JOB!!

    If you want your children to learn faith and religion, you send them to a church which follows your faith, and is supported by money that you and your congregation provide.

    I am not against religion, on the contrary, I have had many thought provoking and informative conversations with members of my department. I enjoy learning and discussing about other peoples beliefs, and find it very educational.

    I won't dis' your religion, if you don't come across as "Holier than thou".

    FG
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    "Victorious warriors win first,
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    while defeated warriors go to war first,
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    Originally posted by PAVolunteer

    In your mind, you are correct. In my mind, you are not correct. Basically, all we are left with is "I'm right", "No, I'm right" and round and round it goes.

    Here is one ... Religion teaches morality. Morality is good for everyone. Can one be moral without religion (in a secular sense)? Yes. Would it be much more succesful when backed by religion? Yes.

    There is my reasoning. Some agree, some disagree. There is no hard, concrete proof. That is the beauty of religion. If there was hard, concrete, irrefutable proof, then religion would be easy. As a result, religion is not easy. Religion is not a concept grasped in the mind. It is not a logical, analytical thing. It is more of an emotion and a conviction. Hence, discussions, while they may plant the seeds, rarely turn anyone to religion. Did that make any sense?

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    Hmmm.....

    Religion does not teach morality. Look at all the priests in the Catholic Church being arrested and put on trial for child sex abuse and molestation. Already two cardinals have resigned over the cover up scandal. Those priests willing to speak out against the Church and their handling of this matter are being threatened with excommunication!

    On the Protestant side, remember Jimmy Swaggert and Jim Bakker?
    They told people that adulterers would burn in hell...and went about having affairs with church secretaries.

    There are scumbags hiding behind the "wearing the cloth" of every relgion.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    There are scumbags hiding behind the "wearing the cloth" of every relgion.
    Rev. Jesse Jackson. Rev. Al Sharpton.
    Two wonderful examples.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Religion does not teach morality. Look at all the priests in the Catholic Church being arrested and put on trial for child sex abuse and molestation.
    Religion teaches morality, but that does not mean that everyone who is taught will be good at it. Every priest, etc. involved in all of that knew what they were doing was wrong. Just like religion teaches morality (and yet does not necessarily make one moral), you can teach a person to be a fireman, and you can put him in turnout gear, but that does not necessarily mean you have a fireman.
    If you took everything that is good about the bible, you could put it all on two pages...the rest is war, pestilance, disease, mass murder, and absurdities.
    Okay, that is your opinion. I'm sorry that you have such a negative view of the Bible. There are others who would say the exact opposite. How about some references?
    Well, it must not teach much on arrogance.....or ignorance for that matter. I will put up my morals and ethics learned from my agnostic parents to any given to you through religion.
    I won't dis' your religion, if you don't come across as "Holier than thou".
    You quoted me and didn't even read what I posted. If you look back, I said that is is entirely possible to be moral without religion.

    It is my opinion that life is better with religion. Does that make me better than anyone on here? No. It is other people's opinion that life is better without religion. Does that make any of them better than me? No. Will any of the people who don't agree with me change my mind? No. Will I change any of your minds? Probably not.

    I've expressed my views and nowhere did I state that I was better or worse than anyone else. Someone please point out where I did. I'm actually attempting (for once) to hold a discussion without personal attacks.

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    Cool Watch my right hand....doooon't look at the left.....

    Normally I let rebuttles go unanswered, but since you obviously haven't figured out the question , let alone the answer.....

    Originally posted by PAVolunteer
    You quoted me and didn't even read what I posted. If you look back, I said that is is entirely possible to be moral without religion.
    Here it is...just to be clear......

    Original arrogance by PAVolunteer
    Here is one...Religion teaches morality. Morality is good for everyone. Can one be moral without religion (in a secular sense)? Yes. Would it be much more successul when backed by religion? Yes.
    I read your post, only you forgot to mention how much more successful I would be with a religious upbringing.

    Will I change any of your minds? Probably not.
    Funny thing is, I'm looking for someone to change my mind, but you're right.....you're probably not the one that will do it.

    FG
    IACOJ.... "Carpe Elkhartem"
    (Seize the Nozzle)


    "Victorious warriors win first,
    and then go to war,
    while defeated warriors go to war first,
    and then seek to win."

    SUN TZU

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    Default Re: Watch my right hand....doooon't look at the left.....

    Originally posted by Firegod343
    Normally I let rebuttles go unanswered, but since you obviously haven't figured out the question , let alone the answer.....
    This is what you posted earlier:
    Originally posted by Firegod343
    Well, it must not teach much on arrogance.....or ignorance for that matter. I will put up my morals and ethics learned from my agnostic parents to any given to you through religion.

    While I have no problem with my kids learning (and possibly following) a religion, I don't rely on schools to provide a moral compass for them. THAT'S MY JOB!!

    If you want your children to learn faith and religion, you send them to a church which follows your faith, and is supported by money that you and your congregation provide.

    I am not against religion, on the contrary, I have had many thought provoking and informative conversations with members of my department. I enjoy learning and discussing about other peoples beliefs, and find it very educational.

    I won't dis' your religion, if you don't come across as "Holier than thou".
    Please point out to me exactly where you posted a question.
    Originally posted by Firegod343
    Here it is...just to be clear......
    I read your post, only you forgot to mention how much more successful I would be with a religious upbringing.
    Your wonderful grasp of the english language has still not enabled you to ask a question. However, I think I have figured out what you are getting at, so I will answer your non-existent question.

    First of all, I never said that anyone would be "more successful" because of a religious upbringing. If you disagree, please point out where I did. For your benefit, I will repeat it for you. I said that it is my opinion that the teaching of morality would be more successful when backed by religion. Why is that? Religion gives reasons why. When you tell a child don't do this, don't do that, I feel that it tends to help if reasons why are given. Religion gives those reasons. Religion gives context to morality. Religion also explains the punishment and consequences of immorality.

    Once again ... I never have said, and am not saying now, that someone cannot be moral without religion or that someone without religion is immoral. Not all religious people are moral. Not all non-religious people are immoral. Understood?
    Originally posted by Firegod343
    Funny thing is, I'm looking for someone to change my mind, but you're right.....you're probably not the one that will do it.
    If all you're going to do is insult me and put words in my mouth, then yes, I won't be the one to do it. Furthermore, no one else will ever be the one to truly do it ... only you can.

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    Default Re: Re: Watch my right hand....doooon't look at the left.....

    Originally posted by PAVolunteer
    Please point out to me exactly where you posted a question.
    The question and answer thing was being rhetorical, due to the religious theme. I did not actually have a question......sorry you missed that.

    First of all, I never said that anyone would be "more successful" because of a religious upbringing. If you disagree, please point out where I did. For your benefit, I will repeat it for you. I said that it is my opinion that the teaching of morality would be more successful when backed by religion.
    Within that statement is your arrogance. Your statement that MY morality would somehow benefit from religion.....when you don't even know me, smacks of why religion is sometimes looked upon with distaste. Your "I'm better than you" attitude, is why religion should not be allowed in schools.

    Twist what you said any way you want, what it comes down to it that you think a person with a religious background is more morally grounded than someone without.

    FG
    Last edited by Firegod343; 03-12-2003 at 03:40 PM.
    IACOJ.... "Carpe Elkhartem"
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    "Victorious warriors win first,
    and then go to war,
    while defeated warriors go to war first,
    and then seek to win."

    SUN TZU

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    Default Re: Re: Re: Watch my right hand....doooon't look at the left.....

    Originally posted by Firegod343
    Within that statement is your arrogance. Your statement that MY morality would somehow benefit from religion.....when you don't even know me, smacks of why religion is sometimes looked upon with distaste. Your "I'm better than you" attitude, is why religion should not be allowed in schools.
    I really have no idea why you are so defensive and why you are so insecure that, anytime I express my opinion, you feel that you are being attacked. I never said I was better than anyone. I've said multiple times that no part of this discussion means that I am better, or worse, than anyone else.

    I'm sorry you missed that.
    Originally posted by Firegod343
    Your statement that MY morality would somehow benefit from religion
    ... and your inability to read surfaces once again. I never said anything about you, or your morality. I have no idea who you are, how moral you are, or how immoral you are. What is being discussed is the teaching of morality.

    Let's say that a certain vehicle rescue technique is being taught a certain way. Some people "get it", some people don't. Through experience, the instructor realizes that if he teaches the technique in this certain way, then more students "get it". Would that mean that the ones who "got it" from the instructor teaching it one way "get it" better than the students who "got it" from being taught a different way? No. All the students who "got it", "got it", got it?
    Originally posted by Firegod343
    Twist what you said any way you want, what it comes down to it that you think a person with a religious background is more morally grounded than someone without.
    What I said is what I said. I haven't changed anything. You are the one twisting it. You are the one changing it. You obviously think what you think, and will twist what anyone says to fit your agenda. So be it. Have fun twisting.

    Finally, thank you for telling me what I think. Let's see if you can tell me what I'm thinking right ... NOW. How about ... NOW?

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    PA VOLUNTEER....

    I'll just leave you with this,

    You are living proof that ex-Governer Jesse Ventura was correct when he said that "Organized religion is for the weak-minded."

    I DO know what you're thinking....your tone and verbage pretty well spell it out. Spin it as you want, you're too easy to read.

    FG
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    "Victorious warriors win first,
    and then go to war,
    while defeated warriors go to war first,
    and then seek to win."

    SUN TZU

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    You can't even come up with your own insults now? You have to borrow other people's?
    Originally posted by Firegod343
    You are living proof that ex-Governer Jesse Ventura was correct when he said that "Organized religion is for the weak-minded."
    First of all, that's not even what Jesse Ventura said. What he said was:
    Organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people who need strength in numbers.
    Nice choice on who to quote ... we all know what kind of governor and leader Jesse Ventura turned out to be. How about some more words of wisdom from the ex-governor ...
    I asked him [Dalai Lama] the most important question that I think you could ask - if he had ever seen Caddyshack.
    If you were to come to Minnesota, I could have you locked up like that. That's power.
    Wrestling is ballet with violence.
    Yep, you picked a real genius to quote.
    Originally posted by Firegod343
    I DO know what you're thinking....your tone and verbage pretty well spell it out. Spin it as you want, you're too easy to read.
    Okay ... again ... what am I thinking right .... NOW?

    Tone? What tone is your computer screen showing?

    In all but your first post, all you have managed to do is call me arrogant, and attempt to tell me what my posts really mean. The basis for your discussion points has been reduced to insults and name calling. That's a good way to show your intelligence.

    If the only way you can give your life meaning is by demeaning others ... good luck with everything you do. You'll need it.

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    Default PAVolunteer.......

    Actually.....

    I have a lot of respect for Jesse Ventura. His unfortunate drawback is that he is honest to a fault, and has not been sucked in to the political vortex of being PC.

    As for name calling.....you are correct, I over-stepped my bounds. I took personal offense to something you said, and became defensive. I apologize for the offensive name calling, and hope we can have future dialogues in this forum

    FG
    Last edited by Firegod343; 03-12-2003 at 06:49 PM.
    IACOJ.... "Carpe Elkhartem"
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    "Victorious warriors win first,
    and then go to war,
    while defeated warriors go to war first,
    and then seek to win."

    SUN TZU

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    Default Re: PAVolunteer.......

    Originally posted by Firegod343
    he is honest to a fault, and has not been sucked in to the political vortex of being PC.
    I will agree with you there, and, because of this, I have a certain amount of respect for him also. Regarding his intelligence and his accomplishments ... we'll leave that for another day.
    Originally posted by Firegod343
    hope we can have future dialogues in this forum
    Agreed ... and you have my apologies for any offense taken from my posts ... none was intended.

    This entire topic is one of opinion. One person's opinion of what is best, and what is right, does not make anyone better than anyone else. As I've said before, this topic has no tangible, concrete facts or solutions ... and so the wheel goes round and round and round ...

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    Okay, that is your opinion. I'm sorry that you have such a negative view of the Bible. There are others who would say the exact opposite. How about some references?
    Do you really want me to do that? Heck, instead of bantering back and forth, here's a link you guys can check out. This guy has done all the work.

    http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

    I REALLY love Leviticus...blood, death, and absurdities abound. Judges is pretty gnarly, too. I'm sure this site has all the references that one would ever need pertaining to the KJV "holy bible."

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    Nozzlman thanks for the link.


    I only took a brief look at it since I'm at work, but even the first page of that site shows allot.

    As far as History is concerned and religion, I do believe that there was a guy named Jesus, who lead a peaceful revolution? But what you have to ask your self what makes him different from anyone else claiming to be the Son of God.

    All he did is following what the prophecies stated would be the signs of the coming of the Son of God. The whole thing of a man riding a donkey into the temple or something like that, I do not recall all the details. And I realize that there are stories of his miracles, but again, look at the times, how do we know. We see people who have full-blown cancer suddenly don't have it anymore, and there was no prophet there to heal them.

    Faith is a great think, but blind faith is just laziness. I think that in this day and age with technology, and the type of research that has been going on that there are allot of new discoveries that are taking place to put it all together. Part of it is taking a close look at the Bible, and the other part is taking a close look at the physical evidence that is still left. Of course it would be nice if these countries would all work together to help uncover some of this stuff rather then destroy it.

    Regardless of your faith I think that we all have an interest in the truth and in finding it out.

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    Do you really want me to do that? Heck, instead of bantering back and forth, here's a link you guys can check out. This guy has done all the work.
    Wow ... that's some pretty ugly stuff. As I've said before, no man can truly comprehend God's word and His will. What was interesting, though, was when I clicked on many of the links, a lot of the verses which sounded so horrible (when taken out of context) turned out to be "if you do this, THEN this horrible thing will happen". Others took one statement out of a lengthy passage and took way too much meaning, or even the wrong meaning, from it. Certainly, there are hundreds of examples of this. On the other hand, there are also hundreds of examples of what you are saying, Nozzleman. At the same time, for every nasty passage, there are plenty of passages of love and forgiveness. You are correct that we could never banter back and forth about this ... we would be here forever.

    One thing I keep in mind is, our life here on Earth is but a nanosecond in the whole scheme of things. The reason for all the death and destruction on Earth (now, and in Biblical times) is that the time we spend on Earth has exactly one purpose - to prepare for Heaven. This is a completely separate topic, which, if you really start thinking about and discussing, kind of freaks me out. So, we'll save that for another day. There are so many different aspects, thoughts, and beliefs with this, we would never have time to cover everything here.

    I respect your thoughts and beliefs, just like I trust you respect mine. I may vehemently disagree with them, but with the same amount of zest, I will defend your right to believe them.
    And I realize that there are stories of his miracles, but again, look at the times, how do we know.
    That is the thing ... we don't "know" (in an analytical sense). If we did, we wouldn't have anything to discuss while we're supposed to be working!
    Faith is a great think, but blind faith is just laziness.
    OUCH! I don't see it as blind faith ... it is more like "Faith like a child." It is the kind of thing where you have to have a certain amount of trust, and a certain amount of uncertainty (but not resorting to "duh, okay boss, whatever you say") ... again, otherwise, there would be nothing to debate.
    Regardless of your faith I think that we all have an interest in the truth and in finding it out.
    I already know the truth - if you guys would just listen to me! Just kidding ... I agree with you.

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    What was interesting, though, was when I clicked on many of the links, a lot of the verses which sounded so horrible (when taken out of context) turned out to be "if you do this, THEN this horrible thing will happen".
    Well, I know the English language well, so I doubt I take any of it out of "context." If what you said above is true, then are violent threats by an all-powerful "god" any less nasty? I get the "you took it out of context" thing a lot. English is English; and when the "bible" states that "god" slaughtered whole populations of people, then that' pretty much what it means. I don't think the "out of context" defense is of any use if one actually reads the entire "bible." So many christians defend the "bible", but they "pick and choose" what they "believe." When confronted by the thousands of evil acts committed by their "god" and the men who appoint themselves his "enforcers", they accuse people of taking the words out of context. People, the "bible" is a medieval rendering by barbarians of the word-of-mouth of other, more ancient barbarians, written to fit the particular beliefs and views of the king or queen in power at the time of it's translation.

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    Those are some pretty harsh words.

    When taken as a whole, the Bible is a guide by which to live your life. It is a message of love and forgiveness. It is just like a lamp, or a flashlight. If you stare into the flashlight, you will be blinded and it is useless. At the same time, if used incorrectly, it can be used to blind someone else. However, if you use the flashlight to guide your path, you will see through the darkness.

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    Originally posted by PAVolunteer
    Here is one ... Religion teaches morality. Morality is good for everyone. Can one be moral without religion (in a secular sense)? Yes. Would it be much more succesful when backed by religion? Yes.
    Religion does not teach morality. The society you live in, and the values that society are based upon teach the morality by which that society governs itself.

    In certain societies of the world it is morally acceptable to stone a women who has been raped, and let the man who raped her walk away.

    In certain societies of the world it is morally acceptable to cut off the hands of a thief.

    In certain societies it is acceptable to send a person to the gas chamber, electric chair or give them a lethal injection.

    In certain societies it is morally acceptable that women MUST be covered all the times, even in their homes. They have NO rights at all, they are not allowed to vote, and in some cases their own families even their husbands force them into prostitution.

    In certain societies it is morally acceptable to cripple your children and make them beg. The families of those children only keep them until they are too old to be cute, and then they get tossed out on the street.

    In certain societies it is morally acceptable to perform blood sacrifices.

    In some societies it is morally acceptable to have several wives.

    In some societies it is morarally acceptable to walk around naked all the time if you chose to.

    While some of those socially acceptable practises may have come from the bible, not all have. They are still considered moral in those societies, and some of those practices are taught in the bible yet they are not considered morally right in our society in general, and that is why there are segregated groups within our general society.

    I doubt very much that INS would allow this women to have a passport photo with her face covered. Why they let her do it on her DL I don't know. Maybe it was to prevent someone from accusing them religious profiling, who knows. The point is regardless of what your religious belief is or is not, that has nothing to do with what is morally acceptable within the country that you chose to reside.

    Many things that the bible teachs were aided to found both of our countries, however there are many more that were conveniently left out of the mix. Several of the things I previously mentioned which are both mentioned and taught in the bible are, with the exception of small groups, considered absolutely taboo within North American society.

    You want prayer back in schools and in congress. Ok WHICH god? By what name should the god you wish everyone to pray to be called? Off the top of my head I can come up with 20 differnt names, and that is no where near all the names called upon world wide, and I'm only including one that the Christian faith uses. Of course that segregates the population that choose to not subscribe to any of the religious beliefs, not to mention the druids, wiccians and other pagans who chose to pray to more then one entity.

    You say that the bible teaches love and forgiveness. According to that then, we should forgive everyone who has wronged us. that would include the perpetrators of the terrorist attacts of 9/11 right? We should forgive Hussain for not disarming 12 years ago when he was asked to. We should forgive Hilter. We should forgive France for not backing the US. We should forgive guys like Manson, and Pickton. We should forgive Alan Baird III. We should just love them all, and the world will magically transform be a better place. Sorry that might be morally acceptable to you, it is not to me.

  22. #97
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    Those are some pretty harsh words.
    The christian bible is full of harsh words...and plenty of the intolerance and traditions mentioned by Temptaker. "God" is supposedly never-changing; omnipotent and all-powerful. Of course, we know this concept could never exist in reality. And, if true, the war-mongering, blood thirsty "god" of the Old Testiment is the same "god" of the New Testiment; thus "he" is the one and the same that christians "worship" today. One should ask one's self why an all-powerful and all-knowing "god" would ever need to smell the burnt flesh of animals to exist; or why this "god" needed a "son" (??) to die to enable "him" to do anything. It is my opinion that the average "christian" does not even read the bible, except to stumble along with a priest or preacher a couple of times a month, reading select passages and ignoring the rest, let alone scrutinize it with any degree of logic and fairness. They are usually too arrogant and afraid to question the only "truth" they've ever known, and "worship" to them usually means a social club. I have been in many churches of all denominations (from golden robed, Latin chanting Catholics to drum-banging snakehandlers), so I feel that I am somewhat of an "expert" on the actions of the average "church-goer." These people are usually quick to use their religion to justify ignorant actions against others in this country, yet they don't even understand the truth of their own religion or it's history. The infighting amongst different denominations of christianity alone should be enough to convince any rational person that religion should be left out of legal and government affairs. I hope that when I bring up the actual content of the "bible" itself that I'm not seen as being "harsh." I would be happy to hear some reasonable explanations as to why people in the modern world follow such preposterous "teachings" as the rituals of the "bible." Of course, reason and logic doesn't often apply to people who follow a religion with human sacrifice at it's core. I assure you that I'm not being mean or spiteful. I understand that religion has most likely taught you, either directly or indirectly, to automatically dismiss or condemn anyone with the audacity to question something as "holy" as the bible, let alone other facets of christianity; such as the fact that there is no historical evidence that the "Jesus" of the "bible" even existed. I understand how christians feel; I was once in that position. All hard questions to my "elders" were dismissed because I was young and couldn't understand. As I got older, things made even less sense. They had a new descriptions for people like me, who like to ask the hard questions: Blasphemer and Heretic. It was only later, after much research of religions far more ancient than Judaism and christianity, that I learned how it all came about; how much of christianity was borrowed from Pagan Sun worship and other Greek and Roman "religions." Once I broke free from the restraints of ignorance, I never looked back. I am not an activist, but I do resent the daily dose of religion that I endure in the area I live in. I can't even buy a beer on Sunday because some people think their religious beliefs should be followed by everyone and, by golly, they are going to see to it that they are by passing laws and ordinances. Same with the posting of the Ten Commandments in our government buildings. When you let one religion into the public proceedings, while excluding others, you have a recipe for dissention and hurt feelings. I have to face a painting potraying a firefighter (white male, of course) with a flag behind him, with the Pledge of Alleigence printed on it. This jewel of a work-of-art was given to us by a local Baptist church. The only trouble is that the phrase "one nation under god" is about 10 times the size of the rest of it. How arrogant! This is prostylizing in it's purest form, as far as I'm concerned. That pretty much proves what these folks are most worried about; not "indivisible" or "liberty and justice for all" but THEIR "god" and THEIR NATION. I am still hoping that they will take the thing down, as it offends me to the bone, but it looks like I will have to take more aggressive actions to see that it does. I don't want to do that; I had hoped that the common sense of our administration would prevail. But, I should have known better. I wonder if I gave them one stating "Thank you, Allah, for everything good about America!" if it would be posted as well?
    Last edited by ThNozzleman; 03-14-2003 at 12:50 AM.

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    Hmmm...I wonder what is REALLY important to these people. The rest of the pledge is in the small print at the top of the photo.
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    Holy cow ... forgive me for not being able to discuss all of these issues, but I have nowhere near enough time to read all of these posts. However, I will address a few items that I noticed while skimming ...

    First of all, morally acceptable does NOT necessarily equal socially acceptable. Temptaker, many of the examples you gave (I would say all, but I didn't read each one thoroughly) are examples which by no means are morally acceptable PERIOD. Just because society says that it is legal, does not mean that it is moral. Everything that is legal is NOT necessarily moral.

    Nozzleman, a few of phrases of your post did jump out at me ...
    Of course, we know this concept could never exist in reality.
    Who is "we", and how do you "know"?
    or why this "god" needed a "son" (??) to die to enable "him" to do anything.
    God didn't "need" a son to do anything. God sent his only son to give us an example, and to show Himself in human form. He sacrificed that son in order to pay the wages of sin for all of us.
    so I feel that I am somewhat of an "expert" on the actions of the average "church-goer."
    A "church-goer" is not necessarily a Christian. A Christian, for one reason or another, is not necessarily a "church-goer". There are many people who go to church regularly who have no idea why they are there. Or, if they think they do, are wrong. I see your point, though. To steal a quote from a DC Talk song ... "the biggest cause of Atheism in the world today are Christians who pronouce Jesus with their lips, but deny Him by their lifestyle."
    I understand that religion has most likely taught you, either directly or indirectly, to automatically dismiss or condemn anyone with the audacity to question something as "holy" as the bible,
    Religion has taught me nothing of the sort. I do not condemn or dismiss anyone for anything. If you've gotten that impression by anything I've posted, I apologize. That certainly was not my intent. Religion has taught me forgiveness (don't worry Temptaker, I'm getting there).
    such as the fact that there is no historical evidence that the "Jesus" of the "bible" even existed.
    FACT? I beg to differ.
    The infighting amongst different denominations of christianity alone should be enough to convince any rational person that religion should be left out of legal and government affairs.
    ... then I guess the fire service should also be banned.

    You are obviously set in your thoughts. This has been a rather interesting discussion. I'm sorry that Christians who express their beliefs have offended you. I'm also sorry that you feel that Christians are ignorant. There are plenty of Christians(who are much more educated than I) who don't understand how anyone could NOT be a Christian. There are always two sides. Finally, if anyone who has read the entire Bible must be insane to follow it, then why are their so many pastors, reverends, etc.?

    Have a good one ... and Stay Safe

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    You say that the bible teaches love and forgiveness. According to that then, we should forgive everyone who has wronged us. that would include the perpetrators of the terrorist attacts of 9/11 right? We should forgive Hussain for not disarming 12 years ago when he was asked to. We should forgive Hilter. We should forgive France for not backing the US. We should forgive guys like Manson, and Pickton. We should forgive Alan Baird III. We should just love them all, and the world will magically transform be a better place. Sorry that might be morally acceptable to you, it is not to me.
    Yes. We should forgive them all. We are not the ones to judge what others do wrong. However, the Bible is very clear that forgiveness does NOT mean that the forgiven go unpunished. Forgiveness is NOT a "get out of jail free" card.

    Stay Safe

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