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  1. #101
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    Okay, when we go to another country, we have to abide by their rules and if we break a law, we have to accept their punishment. For example, you're on Spring Break in Mexico, you get drunk, do something stupid, and get thrown in a Mexican jail, even as an American citizen, you do not get the right to a phone call or an attourney or all that b/c you are in another country.

    Same needs to go to those who immigrate here. You chose to become a citizen of our country. You need to abide by our rules and laws. Period.

    As for the language thing, when we visit another country, we usually try and learn some of the language and about the culture, right? Same thing needs to go....you wanna live here, learn to speak our language.

    Just my 2 cents.
    All of the above comments are solely mine and not those of anyone else.

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  2. #102
    Senior Member Temptaker's Avatar
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    medicchick

    I agree, I've done some travelling, and whenever I go to another country, prior to my leaving I make an effort to learn the language and customs of that country. It is a matter of respect for myself and for the citizens and traditions held in that country, I've also made an effort to spell the same way as other English speaking nations when I go there, or even when I post on the forums here, because the majority of people here are American and spell some words differently then you do. Not everyone does that, it's a personal choice.

    Are you saying that if a person immigrates to either of our countries, that individual should be required as part of their immigration to "convert" to Christianity? If so what denomination or doctrine of Christianity? There are at least 30 different doctrines that are lumped into the umbrella term "Christianity".

    PAVolunteer

    I think you missed the point I was trying to make. You might want to take a look at that list again, because with the exception of three of the practices listed they are all done in both Canada and the US, and I'm sure many other countries as well. I can list them if you like.

    What YOU view as socially and morally acceptable is based upon your opinion, the society that you live, and what you have been taught. Are you saying because you don't agree with the practices of other cultures within your own society all those people are wrong? Their practices are socially and morally unacceptable or that you personally don't agree with them, but would still fight for the right for them to choose their own path?

    The people who engage in those activities may or may not have a completely seperate set of values that they live by. The fact still remains that they live in North America, and both our countries have the LUXURY of freedom. Which means they are free to choose to worship or not whomever or whatever they wish.

    Does that mean that the laws of this land should not pertain to them because of their religious views? In some cases I would venture to say because of the way the Consitution is written it does, but that is a governmental issue, not a religious one. Perhaps there should be appendums made to stipulate that religious choice should not be taken into consideration when creating identification. In my opinion by allowing this woman to wear cover her face in her DL photo, they have created precedent for the same thing to be done on passports. Hopefully the government will look more closely at it, and reverse the decision to allow it.

    Yes. We should forgive them all. We are not the ones to judge what others do wrong. However, the Bible is very clear that forgiveness does NOT mean that the forgiven go unpunished. Forgiveness is NOT a "get out of jail free" card.
    Are you sure about that? It depends on whether you read the old or new testiment, and what your particular doctrine teaches. One has several references to vengence, war, and even genocide, the other says turn the other cheek, forgive those that trespass against you, and to not raise your hand against your enemies. So which is it, and are the other Christian doctrines that don't fit in with your particular teaching wrong?

  3. #103
    Forum Member PAVolunteer's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Temptaker
    I think you missed the point I was trying to make. You might want to take a look at that list again, because with the exception of three of the practices listed they are all done in both Canada and the US, and I'm sure many other countries as well. I can list them if you like.
    I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at here, but I'll give it a shot. I do not view something as moral simply because it is practiced/legal/socially acceptable in the U.S., Canada, or any other "civilized" country. What is moral is moral whether you are in Kentucky or on Jupiter.
    Originally posted by Temptaker
    What YOU view as socially and morally acceptable is based upon your opinion, the society that you live, and what you have been taught.
    This may be true for others. My morality is based on the Bible (and yes, I have been taught the Bible, so I partially agree with you).
    Originally posted by Temptaker
    Are you saying because you don't agree with the practices of other cultures within your own society all those people are wrong? Their practices are socially and morally unacceptable or that you personally don't agree with them, but would still fight for the right for them to choose their own path?
    Basically, yes. My morals are my morals and if someone disagrees with them, I think they are wrong. It is just like a fireman should not enter an IDLH atmosphere w/out SCBA. If someone thinks otherwise, I will think they are wrong. However, everyone is free to choose their own path. Everyone should be able to choose their own path, as long as that path does not interfere with someone else choosing their own path. Did that make sense?
    Originally posted by Temptaker
    Which means they are free to choose to worship or not whomever or whatever they wish.
    Agreed. That does not mean that I will agree with what they choose, though.
    Originally posted by Temptaker
    Does that mean that the laws of this land should not pertain to them because of their religious views?
    Not at all. The basic premise behind the laws of this land is that it prevents one person from inhibiting another person's right to choose their own lifestyle. You can choose your own lifestyle, until it affects another person's right to choose. In the case of the driver's license (first of all, driving is a privilege, not a right - and there is no way that not allowing someone to drive is denying them their freedom of religion), if this person does not remove her veil to take the picture, then they are infringing on someone else's right to safety. If you want the privilege of driving, you get your picture taken. Finally, Christianity states that we are to respect the government that God has put in place, and respect the authority of that government.
    Originally posted by Temptaker
    Are you sure about that? It depends on whether you read the old or new testiment, and what your particular doctrine teaches. One has several references to vengence, war, and even genocide, the other says turn the other cheek, forgive those that trespass against you, and to not raise your hand against your enemies. So which is it, and are the other Christian doctrines that don't fit in with your particular teaching wrong?
    The Old Testament (at the extreme risk of over-simplifying things) is a history lesson. It states that, good, bad, or indifferent, this is what happened. God did what he did for reasons that I may never understand. There were laws back then that were in place for a reason - a reason that I do not necessarily understand. The New Testament is the law by which we are to live our lives. Jesus taught us to forgive, and to turn the other cheek. This applies to personal relations. The New Testament then goes on to explain the right and duty of the government. The duty of the government is to defend a nation against evil, and to destroy evil. If you think about it, this makes sense. In today's law, the average person is not allowed to serve his own justice against a criminal. However, the government (police, judicial system, etc.) has every right to.

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    Last edited by PAVolunteer; 03-14-2003 at 03:30 PM.

  4. #104
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    *posting as medichick*

    I'm not saying that they have to convert to our religion, I mean we all have a right to practice our own religions. What I am saying is that they need to abide by our laws/rules/regulations.
    Alisa Tappana, NREMT-B/CNA

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  5. #105
    MembersZone Subscriber SmokeEater661's Avatar
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    Unhappy This has become a worn out topic

    First off, The woman in the picture should have to take off her coverings, this is no different than any person wearing a hat, sunglasses, or a mask. The picture is intended to be a form of ID not a religous statement. It is fine that her religion doesn't allow the women to reveal to much skin. However, if this person should decide to speed, buy alcohol under the legal age or what ever the case may be, this is to identify her, if found dead on the side of the road this could be used to notify her family. Religion has nothing to do with this it is a matter of the law that when new immigrants take their oath of allegience the swear to abide. Laws are laws there are some i don't agree with but i still do my best to abide with them. This country WAS founded on Christian beliefs, that is why the word "GOD" is used so much, it was these Christian forefathers that insured the right to even have this conversation. Nobody is forcing you to join the Christian beliefs, however if the phrases we use have "GOD" in them big deal. You also have the right not to use them. But, when those who choose to use them do so, don't knock them. A great man once said that there aren't any atheists in a foxhole, in times of despair we all look to someone or thing. If you don't like the things have been for centuries you don't have to leave, but you don't have to stay either, I hear Iraq is quite nice this time of year, see if you can have this conversation over there. To all our soldiers may god be with you, whomever it may be, were all counting on you.
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  6. #106
    Senior Member Temptaker's Avatar
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    PAVol

    I'm not even going to touch your doctrine, it's your doctrine, not all denominations of Christianity believe as you do.

    Medicchick

    That is exactly the point I was trying to make. The issue is a governmental issue, and needs to be dealt with at that level. Arguing about religion, what should be allowed or not allowed is pointless. With the way that the both of our countries Constitutions, bill of rights whatever are written, it leaves holes so people can circumvent the system, and end up having a DL photo taken with their face covered, because it is against their religion.

    It really doesn't matter what religion any country was founded on if it is a free world country. There are going to be people that country that don't follow those beliefs, even if the boards were never opened up, there was NO immigration at all. It's human nature to make up your own mind, and search out the truth. Not everyones viewpoint of what is truth when it comes to religion is going to be the same.

    The issue is not about religion, the issue is about governmental policy that left a loophole based on religious choice, and that loophole has now been exploited.

    Originally posted by SmokeEater661A great man once said that there aren't any atheists in a foxhole, in times of despair we all look to someone or thing. If you don't like the things have been for centuries you don't have to leave, but you don't have to stay either, I hear Iraq is quite nice this time of year, see if you can have this conversation over there.
    I'm not an Atheist, but I do know a few and I find that comment rather offensive. Has it ever occurred to you that an Atheist chooses to look within themself for strength, their friends, their family? Has it ever occurred to you that some Atheists may believe religion is a crutch for the weak minded of the world? Has the thought ever entered your mind that Atheists don't want your prayers? Or that they chose to walk away from religion all together because of the intolerance and judgementalness of many who call themselves Christians?

    You know I just starting to think that we were getting to the real issue, and then you posted that comment. I now realize that the real issue will never truly be addressed, because someone like you will always come along and make and have the tenacity to make a statement like that. I'm sure you know the intent of the hearts of all men. Thank you for showing me that.

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