Thread: Standard flows

  1. #26
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    If any one is interested, especially the people in favor of the low flows and such, read the latest issue of fire enginering and then tell me what you think of the low flows that you are running. A LODD is directly linked to the lack of flow (95 to 125) in the Oakland California fire department. Read the article and then tell me what you think.
    Also for all you fog and combination nozzle people, read the article. It has one of the best quotes that I have heard to date, " The incredible reliability of the smooth bore nozzle is a significant safety feature. Since you can produce only a solid stream with the smooth bore nozzle, it's use ensures that members and victims will not be exposed to the potentially debilitating or leathal effects associated with introducting a fog stream into the fire area." Also it continues on to say, " The smooth -bore nozzle is the safest and most efficient weapon for combating interior structural fires. Therefore, it is the only kind of nozzle that should be taken into the most hostile work environment on the face of the earth-the interior of a burning building. Fog nozzles should be kept in the inventory for other uses, such as flammable liquid fires."

    Read the article "Planning a Hose and Nozzle system for Effective Operations" Issue April 2003

    Just trying to keep everyone safe

  2. #27
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    I would suggest you take a close look at the NFPA 1410 standard for your fire flow guidlines as a starting point.

    300 gpm is the minumum for initial on scene operations. 100-gpm minimum from the first line, 200-gpm minumum from the back up line!

    For you that pull two 1 3/4" lines flowing 150 each you are not meeting the back up line minimum standard outlined in the 1410 standard.

    More is always better!
    Kirk Allen
    First Strike Technologies, Inc

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    Vollie

    If you're really wanting to get a grip on the flows and friction loss (fl) your lines produce, I would not use national flow charts. Although they are a good tool, there can be a major difference between
    fl in your dept's hose and the chart. We use Angus 1 3/4" hose and we have found (flow meter, pitot gauge, and discharge psi gauge behind the nozzle) that the fl per 100'@ 200gpm is about 45 psi. Flow charts (akron) will show it to be about 62 psi per 100'. We also know that the fl in our 2 1/2" hose is real close to the fl charts. Point being, they all differ. You may be over or under pressuring your hose and be right back to where you started.

    We don't have a flow meter either, we used our Akron nozzle rep's. So I would try to get your nozzle rep. (Chief) to give you a hand if they offer flow meter's as one of their products. If not then call a few manufacturers and have them bring by some flow meters to play with (you're looking to buy one of course), then you will know for sure!


    FLOWS Well you can't go wrong with 200gpm in my eye's. Taking in to consideration it is applied correctly. Reguardless of nozzle's used: auto's, fixed, selectable, solid or fog. All have their place, when they are in the right hands.

    I believe one post mentioned "conserve water". Are we fighting fire or lost in the desert? I know the feeling of running out of water. I've seen it from both sides: low flows (95) and high flows (200) I'll stick with the higher flow. You can stick to the low flows if you're there just to make a "showing" as (been there) if you're at party, waiting on the other guest to arrive (engines). There are many times that's all we do is show up and prolong burning, we all know a loser when we see it. Here's the point, if a horse needs water are you going to give it too him in a bottle cap for an hour or let him drink from a bucket? Theres only so much water but he'll require all of it.


    CaptD

    You know what opinions are like...

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    My suggestion-throw the constant flow nozzles away. A 95 gpm setting can handle most room and contents fires with no problem-however, chances are the same line will be pulled for a two room fire and then with a twist of the nozzle you have 125, 150, or even 200. It is all about being multi-versatile.

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    Originally posted by truckie226
    My suggestion-throw the constant flow nozzles away. A 95 gpm setting can handle most room and contents fires with no problem-however, chances are the same line will be pulled for a two room fire and then with a twist of the nozzle you have 125, 150, or even 200. It is all about being multi-versatile.
    I understand your point, but we are trying to standardize our operations to a point where most of the "guess work" is taken out of the equation. That way, you know that you will get X gpm from a certain line.
    In our situation, you have a lack of training combined with a lack of manpower.So anything we can do to make the job easier and take the guess work out is a plus for us. ( We are working on improving training and have started a recruitment campaign to fix those problems)
    I greatly appriciate everyones input on this subject! We put the new nozzles in service this weekend and trained on them.
    I received a call at work from our chief yesterday. He was all excited in telling me that we had a structure fire with about 25% involvement and they were able to make a good stop and not loose anymore of the house....this was HUGE !
    I called a fire equipment vendor and hopefully we can get a flow meter to use for a couple days....one step at a time

  6. #31
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    It seems to be that these nozzles are designed this way for a reason. First they are designed to use create the correct pattern needed to fight the fire, with the minimual ammount of GPM and PSI.

    Some one correct me if I'm wrong please.

    But this is what I'm understanding here. It seems that you are use to Solid Bore Nozzles, these are designed for Direct Attack, and smothering The fire lots of water(GPM) needed.

    Fog Nozzles or Variable Flow nozzles are designe more for Indirect Attacks (Fogging out a room) or for combination attacks, puting a little on the fire, and fogging out a room.

    Now I'm not going to get into the Debate that this could turn into, because in the end it is all about putting the fire out, and there is more then one correct way to do it. How I have been trained is not the same as all of you. So I'm just passing on my understanding.

    Also another point with the Variable Flow Nozzles is that with tless PSI and GPM they are easier to handle for Interior Attacks, because there is less weight and less back pressure, yest with a correct pattern you are stil lable to get the needed resualts with out flooding out the place.

    Now I'm by no means an expert and I'm sure some one can correct me on anything that I miss stated but this is my uderstanding of these nozzles.

  7. #32
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    Let me see if I can explain our delemma to you.
    We had various nozzles (all fog nozzles) with different gpm settings. Some were constant gpm set at 95 and others were adjustable gpm nozzles (could adjust flow from 60 to 125 gpm by turning a dial on the nozzle). The main problem was there was no consitancy to our flows at any given time...most of the time we had insufficent flows from under pumping the truck, bail on nozzle not open all the way or just the fact that the constant flow nozzle was set at 95 gpm.
    If you take the basic fire flow formula...LxW and divide by 3= gpm needed, you can determine the amount of water needed to control and contain the fire...Here is an example..
    30 x 50 single story structure = 1500 sq.ft. divide by 3 =500
    So we need 500 gpm at 100% involvement
    375 gpm at 75% involvement
    250 gpm at 50% involvement
    125 gpm at 25% involvement
    So by taking this formula, if you had a 25 % involvement and attacked it with 95 gpm, in theory, you have an insufficent amount of cooling agent to contain and control the fire.
    So by using a set gallonage nozzle (set at 150 gpm) and marking the pump discharge pressure on the pump panel, your pump operator should be able to deliver the correct gpm at the proper PDP with out a lot of friction loss calculations.
    Secondly, by using a low pressure nozzle, you reduce the reaction force at the nozzle, so the line is easier to handle at the higher flow. This saves wear and tear on your firefighters and makes the hoseline easier to handle.
    Although I don't want to get into the "smooth bore vs. fog nozzle" debate, we are using fog nozzles at this time. Personally, I like to use a straight stream attack (direct attack) when ever possible, but it is nice to have the protection of a fog pattern when you need it.
    Using one nozzle for most of our operations keeps everything consistant as far as pump operations go and at this time with the departments level of training, standardization is the key for our future success right now.
    This is a huge change from the way things used to be done here and from the success we had yesterday, it looks like everyone likes the changes and wants to see what is next.
    Last edited by Vollie4life; 05-06-2003 at 02:53 PM.

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    Airborne

    I think you are talking about "multiple gallonage nozzle" (selectable), not the "constant pressure nozzle" (automatic).
    You mention they are designed to use minimal gpm and psi. MG nozzles
    are factory set at 100 or 75 psi (common) depending on the buyers preference. GPM's range from 30-200(1 1/2" noz.)depending on manufacturer. Once a PDP is established, lets say for 125gpm. The discahrge control ring can be changed to decrease gpm and increase psi or to increase gpm and decrease psi. This is marginal when the PDP has not changed from the original 125gpm setting. We've found switching from 125 setting to 200 will produce about 150gpm without altering the PDP. But the stream tends to become heavy and lazy.

    You also mentioned VFN with less gpm and psi - less weight and back psi. Nozzle reaction is a funny thing with fog nozzles. As an avg. 100psi noz. @ 200gpm = 100 psi NR and 75psi noz. @ 200gpm = 86psi NR.
    But you can reduced NR by changing the pattern from a straight stream to a 30 deg. fog or wider. As far as the weight issue it does not change, reguardless of flow. A 50' section of 1 3/4" hose holds roughly 6.5 gallons which is about 52 lbs. per section. The amount of water flowing through it(95 or 200)does not change that fact.

    Vollie

    Check out akronbrass.com they have a power point presentation on Fire Stream Training. Look under Info and literature. You may be able to use it in your training. Let me know how the flow meter deal goes.


    CaptD

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  9. #34
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    "<i>There is a reason FDNY uses 2.5" lines with big tips, and it's not tradition. It's because a department that goes to tens of thousands of working fires a year knows what works, and what's BullS***. </i>

    Actually, the so called big tip is not used in FDNY! They use a 1 1/8" tip with 2 1/2 inch hose because. "they have always done it that way and TRADITION."

    Any department with 1 3/4" hose could flow the same 245 gpm that FDNY flows with 2 1/2" hose with a lot less firefighters. Departments with 2 inch would be much better off than FDNY.

    If you are really trying to attain high flows use a 1 1/4" smooth bore, it the is the cheapest highest flowing option available, not a 1 1/8" smoothbore.

    As far as 95 gpm nozzles, it will certainly knockdown 99% of all the house fires you'll ever have, don't change nozzles or flows just because. NFPA still says one 100 gpm nozzle and a 200 gpm backup is just fine. How do you take on a two room fire at one time with one nozzle? You don't!

    All the talk about percent involvement of a structure doesn't reall apply to a house fire, because house fires are taken apart room by room. The formula square footage diviced by three was made up not on studies but on a class interview at NFA it is based on nothing. The three major fire serivice formulas vary 200 to 300% on the same fire. Only the IOWA state formula has 100 plus actual fires behind it for proof. That same fire flow that needs 500 using the classroom opinion formula would require less than 120 gpm using the Iowa Formula. Actually the largest room in the house (front room) would set your fire flow of 32 gpm.

    Higher fire flows do not gaurantee faster knockdowns, at some point all you are doing is increasing water damage.

    <i>"A LODD is directly linked to the lack of flow (95 to 125) in the Oakland California fire department."</i>

    The write up is a load of crap! There is plenty of data to support the oposite view, even suggesting that venting might have been in order.

    <i>"The smooth -bore nozzle is the safest and most efficient weapon for combating interior structural fires. Therefore, it is the only kind of nozzle that should be taken into the most hostile work environment on the face of the earth-the interior of a burning building. Fog nozzles should be kept in the inventory for other uses, such as flammable liquid fires." </i>

    Nice paragraph, the fact 99% of the nozzles on earth fighting fire everyday are combination fog nozzles. The combo tip can do for or straight stream can be purchased to have the same nozzle reastion, reach, flow and nozzle pressure, and all the kinks in the line of a smooth bore tip.

    Heck we use smooth bores on flammable liquid fires every day, so they didn't even get that right in the story.

  10. #35
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    Is the restricted flow do to water supply??? I am on a rural fire dept. and that is the problem we suffer from. We get all of our units on the scene and we will only have 2000 gal. to work with until mutual aid arrives. I agree with high flows however. Once the mutual aid has arrived and we have a constant water supply let em' flow. Until then it is trully not an attack it is a containment. Water conservation is a problem that many rural depts. have to deal with that makes the job even harder. On my dept. I would have my doubts on if my guys would even think about pulling a 2 1/2. To them it is just a supply line. We have one 2 1/2 nozzle on the whole dept. I feel your pain in trying to get the "oldies" to change their thinking on attack and gallonage. If it were up to many of them on my dept. we would still just put the nozzle through the window. It all comes down to education and training. If you do not keep up with education and the new standards you will always be behind and never lose the image of the "basement savers". That is the only thing that I can say about here is that we have never lost a basement.


    TRAIN TRAIN TRAIN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is the only way to survive!!!

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    What's a basement? Oh thats that thing under the house, right!
    We call it "slab saver" here in FLA.

    CaptD

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    imtxff44 the Iowa formula L X W X H / 100 was a good formula. Today fires give off more BTU's. Plastic gives off at liest 3 times the btu's then wood does. The Royerson or NFA formula L X W / 3 more accuratly accounts for todays fires. A living room 15 x 20: 300 square feet Iowa, 24 GPM. NFA 100 gpm. Doesn't that sound more realistic. 24 GPM isn't going to do it.
    flashover113 Fire doubles in size every minute. If you hit it hard upon arrival you may put it out or if nothing else you darken it. The fire now has to grow again to get to the size it was when you first arrived. You have the time for more water to arrive. If you attack it with "water conservation" in mind you will need the extra water. A "blitz" attack can work in a rural setting.
    We played with an idea last week that is worth sharing. Say you have a house with a well developed fire in it. Use the Deck gun to put a hit on it while leading out the lines. Flow the gun for 5 to 10 seconds only, then make the interior attack. Obviously size up is important, but think about it if two rooms are fully involved do you have a rescue in those rooms? NO. Using the SB on the gun won't push the fire and even with the 2" tip you'll use just under 200 gallons and the fire will darken. Now you can finish it off with the 1.75" and the fire isn't spreading while you are advancing the line, it is just trying to grow again. 800 gallons is a lot to work with (we have 1000 gallon tanks)

    Just a thought

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    ADSNWFLD - I agree totally with the idea of the blitz attack with the deck gun!!! I try to stay away from discussing the deck gun in my area because many of the FF's and that includes command think that the deck gun is a cure all. They will run the truck out of water before they shut it down. A cure for that is training but there is a lot of old blood as we all know that are stuck in there ways. I will say though that the blitz attack is the best route to take as long as the training and understanding of the idea are there. Comming from a small rural dept. where you have the guys that are officers have the position just because they have been on the dept. for 15 years. The number of years on a dept. does not mean that they are educated and experienced. I know that is the problem most dept.s face and we will have to addapt to it until we can change it.

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    Talking Handline Pressure

    I too am a vollie for a rural department. Do to man power this was a big issue and we resolved it because of motivated guys like you. Our 1 3/4 is used at 140 to 150 psi
    2 1/2 (rarely used)is used at 180 to 190 psi


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    -and i gladly stand up next to you to defend her still today, because their ain't no doubt i love this land, god bless the U.S.A

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