Thread: Standard flows

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    Question Standard flows

    I'm trying to get my department to standardize flows for our hand lines. We have both adjustible gallonage and constant flow nozzles.
    For some reason that no-one can explain, our constant flow nozzles are set at 95 gpm.
    The only thing I can figure is that since we are a rural department, the nozzles are set at 95 gpm to conserve water.
    Here is my question....what is the standard flow for your department? And why?
    This is aimed at rural departments, but all input is welcomed.
    Thanks

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    Add let me add to this. Since we are an all volunteer rural department, the members have to respond to the station to pick up the trucks. So there is a delayed response and also depending on where the call is located, there may be an additional 5-10 minute response time giving the fire a tremendous head start.
    I don't believe that the 95gpm flow on our 1 3/4 hand lines is sufficient to contain and control a working fire. I would like to see 125 or 150 gpm flow on our hand lines.
    I have purposely left out pulling 2 1/2 lines or master stream operations( Reasons in a future post) for these fires.

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    On all of our 1 3/4" preconnects we use TFT automatic nozzles and flow 150gpm. On our 2 1/2" lines we have smoothbore nozzles with smallest tip flowing around 250gpm. Volunteer department also. From dispatch to on first two trucks on scene is usually within 5 minutes. All members respond from home/work to firehouse also.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    We kinda have the same deal. The flows from our 200' 1.75 with automatics is probably around 60 GPM. Our Engineers are taught to pump 110#. Unless Elkhart select-o-matics don't operate at 100 psi, that seems to be about 60 GPM. When I told the guys "at my last department" (which I didn't like saying) we used Bones' setup to the t, they were are like "man that is way too much pressure!"

    Conserving water for what? To wash off the foundation when the building comes down? That's all that will be left if the flow is not adequate. Flowing 95 GPM for 10 minutes won't work as well as flowing 150 GPM for almost half the time.The best way I think to "conserve" water is to hit a fire with a flow sufficient to kill it and then go home, instead of ****ing on it in vain...

    Edit: To answer your question, we don't have a flow based on SOP, or logic for that matter. It is simply run the pump to 110 because, you guessed it, that is how it has always been...

    Elkhart does make a low pressure selectomatic. We don't have that one.
    Last edited by MrFreeze; 04-03-2003 at 07:39 PM.
    ...if you put the handline in the right spot, you won't have to jump out the window...
    -Andy "Nozzles", SQ18, 9-11-01

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    In our house 1 3/4 is pumped to 185 - 200 GPM, 2 1/2" to 325 GPM and 3" to 500 GPM.

    60 and 95 gpm on an 1 3/4"?? why drag the extra weight, pull a booster and get the same flow.

    The fire doesn't really care how much water you brought with you, if you apply 95 GPM to a fire requiring 300, your just prolonging the inevitable, the fire will go out when the fuel is consumed to the point that your flow rate will extinguish it.

    Take some target hazards your local and apply the NFA fireflow formula LxW/3 you find out pretty quickly your lines are suited for one small room.

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    Thanks for the replies. I feel that sometimes I am fighting a losing battle with the "thats the way we always have done it" crowd and the "I don't care how you did it at XXX FD" crowd.
    Lets take a basic fire flow calculation for a 1400 sq.ft. single family home.
    100% involvement= 460gpm
    75% involvement= 346gpm
    50% involvement= 231gpm
    25% involvement= 115gpm

    So with that basic formula, our handlines are not even sufficent enough to contain and control a 25% involved mobile home fire.
    Thats not even taking in account that the truck probally wont be pumped at the proper PDP or that the bail on the nozzle will be opened all the way, so in all actuality, the gpm from the handline will probally be about 50 or 60 gpm.
    The only way I can really prove my point is to get a couple houses and do some training burns and show them the difference.
    I'm trying to change the mindset of our department and improve our service delivery through training and information. We have a good group of dedicated people, just trying to make the group better and more effective.
    Please, more people reply with their standard flows and reasoning behind them...I need all the info I can get to make some changes!
    Last edited by Vollie4life; 04-04-2003 at 09:04 AM.

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    Hello,
    do the calculation, 45psi pressure loss per 100' of 1 3/4" hose. Then if you use an automatic nozzle then add 100psi. That will get you about 175-200gpm. The only way you fight fire. Not to sound rude, but if your dept is only running 95gpm I hope that you don't put anyone inside the building. And if so, Stop.

    stay low, be safe

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    We use 2 inch attack lines with 200 gpm at 75 psi low pressure Elkhart break a part nozzles backed with a 1 1/4 inch smoothbore slug.

    We only have 100 feet of 1 3/4 inch line on our rigs and it is the trash line. We don't use 2 1/2 inch hose either.

    Our standard flows are 160 gpm at around 55 psi at the nozzle, underpumping the nozzle, 200 gpm at 75 psi at the nozzle, and just under 300 gpm with the smoothbore at around 40 psi at the nozzle.

    We do have an apartment line set up with 500 feet oif 3 inch to a wye with 100 feet of 2 inch attached. Also we run a preconnected Stinger off the back step pre-connected to 200 feet of 3 inch.


    Truckco1:

    do the calculation, 45psi pressure loss per 100' of 1 3/4" hose. Then if you use an automatic nozzle then add 100psi. That will get you about 175-200gpm. The only way you fight fire. Not to sound rude, but if your dept is only running 95gpm I hope that you don't put anyone inside the building. And if so, Stop.
    Automatics the only way to fight fire? I think not. One way, yes. Your way, yes. But definitely NOT the only way. If it were true TFT wouldn't sell all types of nozzles and they do. Everyday somewhere in the world almost every type of nozzle is extinguishing fire.

    Vollie for life:

    Look at the fuel loading in a house today. Everything is synthetic. Essentially oil in solid form. The higher flows are necessary for extinguishment as well as safety for your crew. Every fire eventually burns down to the point that what we are doing will put the fire out. But we are supposed to intervene if possible and save what we can, not wait for the fire to agree that we are now putting enough water on it for it to go out.

    Your flows for interiro attack on residences should be minimum of 125 gpm and even better if it is in the 150+ gpm range.

    Take care and stay safe,

    FyredUp

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    Vollie it is awesome that you are trying to rock the boat! It can be difficult, and hell almost impossible to change minds that haven't had to be used for 15-20 years. Keep asking those questions that no one has the balls to though!
    ...if you put the handline in the right spot, you won't have to jump out the window...
    -Andy "Nozzles", SQ18, 9-11-01

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    Thanks guys for your replies...PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE... I need all the info I can get to make some changes....So far 80 people have viewed this thread, I was hoping to get more replies...I'm begging for help here!

    I've been with this department for a little less than a year. Most of the time I've been making mental notes and learning how things are done. I'm seeing the same mistakes here today, that my last department made years and years ago...I really want to make an impact and improve the way we operate. I'm sick and tired of spending all night delaying the total destruction of someones home (when we could have stood back and let it burn to the ground in a hour) by inadequate water flows and poor tactics. And not to mention the safety of the firefighters operating at the scene.
    The more good info I can present to the powers to be, the more willing they are to making a change ( or at least listening to way changes need to be made)
    We can't change the entire make-up of the department overnight, but each little step get us closer to the end result and if it doesn't work here, hopefully someone can use this info at their department.
    Last edited by Vollie4life; 04-22-2003 at 09:10 AM.

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    1400 sq.ft. single family home.
    100% involvement= 460gpm
    75% involvement= 346gpm
    50% involvement= 231gpm
    25% involvement= 115gpm

    So with that basic formula, our handlines are not even sufficent enough to contain and control a 25% involved mobile home fire.


    Jeepers, I don't see many 1400 s.f. mobile homes!

    25% involvement of a 1400 sq. ft. home is most likely more than a "room & contents" -- your typical residential bedroom or kitchen or living room alone can be controlled at 95gpm.

    Where you get into trouble with that flow is if you have multiple rooms going, or especially if your size-up was wrong and you go down the hall and find more involved than you thought!

    Is 95gpm flowing onto a 100% involved house going to do much? Hell no. But then again, 231gpm to meet your 50% figure is going to take 2 handlines anyway -- few engine crews in this country can advance a 230gpm flow from a single line!

    95gpm will cut off extension in a mobile home, then you can bring the bigger lines to bear on it to knock the fire down.

    -------------
    What do we flow?
    Two choices off our main attack truck for preconnected small handlines:
    1.5" flowing 65gpm fog/95gpm straight stream (Rockwood Nozzle w/ larger bore)
    1.75" TFT 70-200gpm automatic

    Pump operators go to 150psi Pump Discharge Pressure and flow Class A foam unless told otherwise by an officer.

    With our setups, 150# on the pump gets us the 65/95 on the 1.5" line and upto 150gpm on the TFT depending on how much the nozzle team wants to flow on it.

    An officer can order the pressure up to 200psi, which gets us 200gpm out of the TFT.

    Me personally what do I grab? No obvious fire, light drifting smoke, or fire that's vented well with no signs of significant extension I'll grab the 1.5" for it's mobility and speed -- yes, it is noticeably faster than an 1.75".

    Fire involving more than one room, heavy smoke pushing under pressure -- especially heavy smoke with no obvious indication where the fire is -- I grab to 1.75" to handle either a) the bigger fire or b) the potential we have a lot more fire than we see.

    ------------------
    The comments on modern construction is relevant. We're not building the 700-1000 sq. ft. homes we did through the 70s. Now 1500, 2000 and larger are standard -- which means bigger kitchens, bigger living rooms. "Great rooms" in some of these houses can be awful big.

    -------------------
    95gpm pre-set doesn't get me that hot and bothered.

    Having one small "utility" line like a 1.5" with either a big Rockwood or a small combonation (say 65gpm-125gpm) nozzle isn't a bad idea to handle your small room & contents and handle hunting down partition fires where you may send the line to one place, then realize you need it somewhere else instead.

    Having a couple 1.75" lines with combonation nozzles that can flow 70-200gpm range then offer good options for attacking most residences with one or two lines; for cutting off extension in agricultural buildings.

    Then having a 2"/2.5" line that can be advanced then flow 250-300gpm is a good option before bring out the master streams. These 2/2.5" lines aren't as easy to advance, especially when flowing, as the 1.75" -- but they're still more maneurvable (goodness I can't spell tonite) than a bomb line being fed by a 3" or 4" line.

    Being able to size-up and choose the right line is more important than worrying if some of your lines have low flows!

    -----------------
    One final observation on what you're saving water for...

    First, tactics in using a nozzle are usually more important than flow. 65gpm put on the fire will do much more than 250gpm that's flowing in one window and out the next (been there, done that...whoops).

    If you look at the fire and aren't sure you have enough water to control it, but you're pretty confident you have enough water to confine it that's a better choice. Then once you have better water supply established you can up your flow.

    Some of this is probably more oriented towards barns and such -- most houses we all carry enough water and flow to knock down all but a fully involved one.

    Maybe you need 300gpm to knock down the fire. You whack it, have a crew that's not very good on the nob, 3 minutes and you're out of water and spend the next several minutes watching the fire take back everything you just gained while waiting for the next truck. But maybe you see a wall inside the coop where 65gpm applied to it will keep the fire from breaching. Then when the next truck gets there, you hit the snot out of it at 500gpm and the deal is done.

    Generally when sizing-up and deciding on tactics, start at your exposures and work back. Old Chief's advice from a neighboring town: It's OK to lose a building on fire -- you better never lose an exposure building! Can I protect the other buildings exposed? If yes, now what of the fire building's "internal exposures" -- i.e. where the fire can extend to -- can I protect. Once the exposures are covered, now it's time to attack the fire.

    (For most house fires, that simply means go in a put the friggin fire out...but for barns and commercial buidlings and even larger residential buildings that fire extension thing becomes important)

    It's a balance with no set answer -- it's called a blitz attack. Do you hit the fire with all you got, knowing you'll out run your water supply but probably knock down the fire...or do you conserve your water so your not left looking "silly" to the general public who saw you run out of water and the fire continue burning. Or worse yet, blow you water load, fail to knock it down for whatever reason you didn't anticipate, then find yourself without the water left to cut off further extension.

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    I think you have to look at the history of fires your department goes to. As mentioned earlier the use of more plastic increases the fuel load and speed at which fires spread.

    Lets take a bedroom fire, by the time we get there it has flashed. A typical bedroom is 12 X 15 now. That is 180 Sqft, 60 gpm using the NFA formula. Your current set up can handle that. But I'm guessing that because you are volunteer that the fire is a little more advanced on arrival (no slam intended if you add a minute to a responce the fire will be bigger) Lets say that you have two rooms and a hallway 12 X 15 (X2) and 4 X 10. That is 400 sqft. and will require 133 gpm.

    If you use your 95 gpm nozzle you will not be able to put the fire out! Take the 15/16 smooth bore at 50 psi and your flowing 184 GPM, more then enough to put out the fire. I know numbers are one thing but I have put out 2 + rooms with the 15/16 and it works well. If the guys are having a hard time holding the line drop the pressure 10 lbs. Even at 40 psi your flowing 165 gpm still plenty of water. One thing to remember is that a 1.75" line is supposed to be work, you shouldn't be able to handle it by yourself you should have a back up man on the line.

    Any more fire and you should be thinking about the 2.5" line. One half of the 1400 sqft home is a flow of 233 gpm. At this point we need to take a look at the big picture. We will risk a lot to save a life but we shouldn't be risking a lot if we will not be saving anything. Take our 1400 sqft house if the entire second floor is involved can anyone be saved from the bedrooms, No. Newer homes have lightweight construction, Do you know the neighborhoods that are built with trusses? If the second floor is fully involved upon arrival perhaps all we can do is a quick primary of the first floor and let it go. If the fire started on the first floor will it become fully involved prior to spreading to the second floor? If we have victims in the bedroom the only thing that MAY save them is the big flows from a 2.5" with a very aggressive and risky VES or other alternate route to the bedrooms. If we wait to go up the stairs, till after the fire is knocked, the victims will not survive.

    Any way if you look at the buildings you have you should be able to convince the other guys to go with higher flows from the 1.75 and 2.5" lines. If you really want big flows that are easier to use then look into the vindicator, just a sugestion

    good luck.

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    Sorry not what I meant with the automatic nozzles. I know that it sounded that way. I meant the GPM. I am a huge advocate of solid bore nozzles. Same GPM, with a big difference in working pressure. We also run the split nozzles, auto w/ 1in slug. Also run true solid bore with 15/16 tip at approx 180-200 gpm.

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    Lightbulb

    Think of it this way: It's GPM that puts the fire out not PSI. You've got to have more GPM'S than BTU'S being produced.

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    I work on an engine company. Our primary attack lines are 2, 200' 1 3/4" crosslays. One with a smooth bore 15/16" tip, our primary 1 3/4" line, and a second with a breakaway selectable gpm combination nozzle with a 15/16" slug tip underneath. Of the rear we have a 200' 2 1/2" attack line with 1 1/8" tip. Our 1 3/4" lines generate 185 gpm and our 2 1/2, 265 gpm.

    We ride 5, minimum of 4, on our engine at all times. Chauffer, Officer, Nozzle, and Control positions. My company trains with the 2 1/2" line on a regular basis. In fact it safe to say that we never train with the 1 3/4". Our officer, and I agree with his thinking, believes that if we can do it with the 2 1/2" in training, then the 1 3/4" on the street will be a walk in the park. So far the theory has been proven right. Although we seem to never get to use the 1 3/4" because we've been forced to use the 2 1/2" more often.

    As the nozzle firefighter, I carry the 1/2" overhaul tip in my pocket at all times. We hit the fire hard knock it down and then switch to the overhaul tip for overhaul and mop up, to reduce water damage. For the 2 1/2" we carry a 50' role of 1 3/4" line and a spare nozzle in the Chauffers compartment. Once we knock down the fire, we spin off the tip and thread the 1 3/4" onto the 2 1/2" nozzle for overhaul, this saves us from pulling another line. Point is, I would much rather hit the fire hard up front, with to much water, and get that rapid knock down, than to come up short on the critical flow and end up chasing it around. It comes down to training and staffing. Can you staff enough trained personel to handle a 2 1/2" attack line with one engine company? Not every company can.

    One more point in reguards to critical flow. Remember that in most houses even if there are two rooms and a hallway involved, and that total square footage equals 150 gpm critical flow. The fire is compartmentized in each room. You attack the fire in the hallway first knock that down, then move room to room knocking down the fire. The hallway 4x15 only requires 20 gpm to knock, give it some extra flow for the fire coming out of the other rooms, but it still is fairly low. Next each room, 12x15 can be knocked with that 60 gpm flow. This is not a always the case however, pushing down that hall on a windy day may be another story. Thats why, as I stated above, I would much rather hit it hard and fast, than take the chance of maybe matching that critical flow. Just some thoughts to ponder, this is a never ending debate in the fire service. As Dalmation90 said it really comes down to your size up of the scene and what you can do, with your resources, to first contain the fire and then extinguish it.

    Hope this helps some. Good luck changing their minds, I know it can be a tough battle, but hang in there.
    Last edited by CHFD098; 04-16-2003 at 10:54 AM.
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    An old chief use to have us only use one 1 3/4 line on a fire no matter how big the fire was so we could be showing the public that water was being put on the fire. It didn't matter if the fire was being extinguished. His worse fear was running out of water! Not puttg the fire out. It has been my experance to hit it with the most you can as fast as you can to overwhelm the fire. I have used deck gun attacks before they were accepted and have always been able to knock the crap out of 50% involved 1800 sq. ft tri level house fire that was thru the roof with only 500 gallons, and 1/2 of that went over the house before my pump operator cpould get the tip low enough. He needed a couple of more drill hours after that. Anyway more is always better. You can always dry things out but ya can't unburn things!

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    Vollie4life,

    How about not being so nice about this situation. To start, let's take into account that firefighters have been dying on the fire scene in basically the same manner for the past 300 years.

    We have yet to learn from our past mistake. Usually, we and the general public portray these tragic deaths as acts of heroism. However, if one takes a hard look at the statistics, and facts of the incidents, the deaths are related to our own miscalculations and sometimes even our own stupidity.

    I mean no disrespect to those who have died in the line of duty, but I have first hand knowledge of losing a friend in the line of duty. And if he would have made it out alive, the first thing he would have said was, "boy that was really a stupid thing to do."

    I have also found myself in many situations that in retrospect could have cost me my life and were pretty stupid things to do.

    My point in all this is, that in my opinion, going to fire without the proper equipment, manpower, water supply, or fire flow is just a stupid thing to do.

    Showing up at a structure fire with lines flowing 95 GPM is inadequate, improper, and unprofessional. Once again, I mean no disrespect, but these are the cold hard facts.

    Thinking outside of the box is not the solution. Being aggressive about providing top-notch service and protecting the lives of both firefighters and civilians is the solution.

    If one does not address this head on, the box with which one should concerned is a pine box.

    chipt1

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    I am sure that the reasons for setting your nozzles on 95 gpm are:

    1. We've always done it that way.
    2. We can't handle a hoseline flowing more than that.

    You don't bring a slingshot to a gunfight. Setting the nozzle on 95 gpm and having improper pump pressures does just that.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    I learned several years ago to never underestimate just how much heat a "Room and Contents" fire can generate. I responded with my depertment's ladder truck on a mutual-aid fire at a college dorm. On arrival, there was fire blowing horizontaly THIRTY FEET out of a window on the second floor. The structure was a standard, non-sprinklered, 3 story concrete dorm 50x150. The only thing burning were the contents of a single room, nothing else. The entire structure was charged with smoke, and several ladder rescues were required. The first two 1.75" lines were each tipped with TFT's flowing 150+ gpm. Side by side, with both lines wide open, the crews could not get down the hall to the fire room. A 2.5" line with a 1.25" tip flowing 325 gpm was brought up to work with them. It took all three lines flowing together to push down the hall to the fire room. The crews said it was the hottest fire they had ever seen!
    After the fire was knocked down, we were sent in to overhaul. The fire was so hot it caused the room's concrete walls and ceiling to spall. The hallway ceiling had spalling twenty feet in both directions. The fire even melted out the aluminum window frames. It was unbelieveable how much heat came out of that one room. There is NO WAY a 95 gpm handline could have even made a dent in this fire, hell it never would have gotten past the stairway door
    There is a reason FDNY uses 2.5" lines with big tips, and it's not tradition. It's because a department that goes to tens of thousands of working fires a year knows what works, and what's BullS***.

    Good luck on your mission Brother
    John

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    The structure was a standard, non-sprinklered, 3 story concrete dorm 50x150.
    ....Kind of like the 3 buildings where I spent the last 4 years of my life.

    The plumbers came in to install sprinklers in my senior-year building, the day after I graduated.

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    Vollie4Life

    First of all, Dont let anyone tell you cant acomplish anything. The fire service is a changing world and our "supposed leaders" need to be realizing this. And alot do don't get me wrong.

    Anyway back to the main topic... We leave our crosslays on 125gpm and have around the same respone times y'all do sometimes. I took it one step farther though... Our drivers at the time were just not up to date on friction loss and things. So I made a pump chart. for the preconnected lines. Did all the friction loss and made one specifically for each truck. Now you just explain to firefighters the purpose and your drivers.. then you can select which one you want quickly and easly.. with out your driver having to stop and think about well do they have the correct pressure.... I hope this helps.

    would like to hear back if you decide to go this route.. let me know if you thought of anything else..

    be safe
    Lenny Cunningham
    Youngsville Fire Department
    Engineer/EMT-B

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    Default Thanks!

    Thanks for all the input!
    I happened to run into the Asst. Chief of one of our mutual aid departments and had a long talk about this issue. It just so happens that they spec'd out new nozzles about a year ago and had the old ones in a box at the station. So.....after a little begging, he donated them to our department.
    Before we put them inservice, I need a little help. I posted this in another part of the forum and didnt get any replies, so I will try here.
    These are Chief nozzles. On the stem are 2 numbers. The 2.5 nozzles have 200 over 75 or 250 over 75 and the 1.75 nozzles have 100 over 75 or 150 over 75. I think the top number is the gpm of the nozzle. Can anyone tell me what the bottom number is? I'm thinking its the nozzle pressure, but I want to make sure before we start using them.
    Lenny, thanks for the idea!
    A laminated card with friction loss, gpm and pump operating pressures would work great.

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    Exclamation Maybe or Maybe Not?

    Where I am a Captain at we have a What i call Multiple Personality Hoseline cause everyone that has it wants it a different pressure. However what I personally like is about 95-100GPM for several reasons. 1. Being if you dont lolly gag around and get out the door and get on scene in a decent about of time you can make a decent knockdown and not ruin everything in the house by spraying a ton of water "150 GPM" all over the place. 2. We have several smaller males and several females and alot of them 150lbs is alot of pressure to be holding and spraying for a long period of time. and last but not least 3. Have you tryed trying to crawl around a house with a hoseline charged at 150-200psi?? Not Easy and Im a Big Guy.
    My Recommendation is stick with the 95GPM it will do you good and like you said Conserve H20 and as a Volly myself i can tell you how much it sucks to run outta water on a scene.
    Hope it helps..Valley Fire Dept.

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    Thumbs up

    Hi Vollie,

    Wow, you lucked out, the Chief is a great nozzle. To get a box of them for free is a super deal!

    You are correct about the numbers on the nozzles. The top number is the gpm the nozzle will flow when supplied with the lower number in psi for NOZZLE PRESSURE.

    So...

    If you have 200' of 1.75" hose with the 150/75 nozzle, it will flow 150 gpm if you have a PDP of 135 psi. (Using the Avg FL of 30 psi per 100' @ 150 gpm for 1.75" hose)

    Friction loss varies quite a bit with different makes of hose. Your best bet is to use an engine with a flowmeter to see what the actual loss in your department's hose is. Like any new equipment, you need to get out and train with it. Make sure everyone understands how the new set-up will work, and they feel comfortable using it before someone's life depends on it!

    Train Like You Fight, Fight Like You Train!

    Good Luck Brother
    John

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Maybe or Maybe Not?

    Originally posted by valley09
    Where I am a Captain at we have a What i call Multiple Personality Hoseline cause everyone that has it wants it a different pressure. However what I personally like is about 95-100GPM for several reasons. 1. Being if you dont lolly gag around and get out the door and get on scene in a decent about of time you can make a decent knockdown and not ruin everything in the house by spraying a ton of water "150 GPM" all over the place. 2. We have several smaller males and several females and alot of them 150lbs is alot of pressure to be holding and spraying for a long period of time. and last but not least 3. Have you tryed trying to crawl around a house with a hoseline charged at 150-200psi?? Not Easy and Im a Big Guy.
    My Recommendation is stick with the 95GPM it will do you good and like you said Conserve H20 and as a Volly myself i can tell you how much it sucks to run outta water on a scene.
    Hope it helps..Valley Fire Dept.
    No offense, but it sounds like your pump operators need to learn friction loss and pump operations. This is the reason I am pushing for standard flows at my department.
    Also, spraying 150 gpm all over the place is poor nozzle work and a total waste of water. Hit the base of the fire with a 150 gpm straight stream and watch it do the work for you. The fire blacks out, there is hardly any steam generation and you have not distrurbed the thermal balance, therefore reducing the risk of burned firefighters.
    PenquinMedic,
    Thanks for the info! We really lucked out! It didnt hurt that I've known this chief for about 10 years and he is the one who convinced me and my family to move to this area.
    Being that these are low pressure nozzles, I think I can convince the powers to be to use the 150 and 250 nozzles. A little retraining in pump opps, friction loss and nozzle work will greatly increase our effectiveness.
    I was really happy about the 2.5 nozzles being low pressure. It is hard to convince people in the rural fire service to pull a 2.5 for an initial attack (especially with limited water on hand and they are hard to handle) but if you can darken down the fire quickly,you actually conserve water by putting more cooling agent on the fire than BTUs the fire is able to produce.
    I'm just trying to darken down the fire so that the water from a 1.75 hose line can be used more effectively and put out the remaining fire. This also is taking into account that all engines and tankers are responding on the inital alarm and no station has "struck out" on responding.
    Unfortunatly, I don't know of anyone who has a flowmeter, so we will base our friction loss and pdp pressures on the IFSTA Pumping Apparatus D/O Handbook and build from there.
    Thanks for all the help and support!
    Last edited by Vollie4life; 04-28-2003 at 03:28 PM.

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