1. #1
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    Post Two story residential structure, heavy smoke and fire showing from all four sides...

    It's scenario time. I know half of you guys probably couldn't do this in real life, but maybe we can still learn something from each other in this one, just use what you have learned in your Firefighter 1 (or whatever you may call it) classes and apply it to the scenario.

    SO HERE GOES...

    The time is 04:30 hrs. You arrive on scene in Truck Company 12, PAR 4. The structure is a type 5, two-story single family structure, with heavy smoke and fire showing from the second floor, sides 2 and 4, with heavy smoke from side 1. There are two upstairs windows on side 1. You note that the picture window on the first floor is spiderwebbed and smoke stained, with smoke puffing out from the edges. There are two family members outside, yelling hysterically that their child is still in the upstairs bedroom, but they are too hysterical to show you exactly which window is the child's. The closest engine is 3 minutes out, and if you don't get the child out immediately, you'll be taking them out in a bodybag. WHAT DO YOU DO?
    These are my opinions, not those of my career department, my volunteer company, or my affiliates. And by the way, I'm not a Junior.

    Buy me a drink, sing me a song, take me as I come 'cause I can't stay long.

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    I'm not trying to rain on your show but at this point the child would likley already be dead. Keep in mind in a fire, it is not the fire that kills, but the Super heated gases along with carbon monoxide. And with the sad personal knowladge that I have from my baby nephew that was pulled from a building alot less involved then this, his own body killed himself.

    From what the doctors found, is that his lungs and esophigous(sp) shut off on there own, rather then let the smoke in. He lived for 5 days in the hospital, skin crafts and all, he even was breathing on his own. They thought that he was going to be fine, because it did not appear that he had smoke inahlation(sp). But he was brain dead except for the portion of the brain that controled his heart and lungs. Saddly the only humain thing to do was to take out his feeding tube, and he died the next day in his God Mothers arms.

    Sorry not to keep going on and on. But in a situation like you have descriped the chances that a person is still alive is not worth the risk of a fire fighter going inside. If you have windows breaking from the heat, on the first floor, and flame and smoke comming from the secound floor, one can only assum that flashover has occured, or is going to occure soon.


    But that is my opinion.

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    Well being a hosehead I would wait for the Eng. and the real FF to arrive. lol jk

    Well I would put the stick up on side 1 and start venting to avoid these backdraft conditions and get the heat and smoke out. I would make these people calm down and tell me exactly where this kids room is. Once done venting I would send in two ff on the aerial to the childs room and search in there and get him.

    As the Eng. rolled up I would have them grab a hydrent and drive up to side two and hit the fire with the deck gun to knock it down while readying a 1 3/4 with class A foam hand line to go in and knock the down the rest of the fire.

    I would have the second Eng. come in and be the RIT team and then begin overhaul.

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    I would have to agree with dfdex.
    No longer an explorer, but I didn't wanna lose my posts.

    IACOJ 2003

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    Exclamation

    Just remember the hallmark of a good fire dept. is a quick response and quick aggressive intieror attack.

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    Hey, little secret here for you.....if you have heavy Smoke and Fire showing from the second floor of the house, you are more than likely NOT going to have Backdraft conditions on the First floor. Why you Ask (Unless you think you know all already)?

    1. What do you do to alleviate a potential Backdraft?
    Answer: You ventilate from the highest point of the dwelling. Now if the Fire has ALREADY VENTED itself to the point that you have "heavy smoke and fire showing from the second floor, side 2 and 4" then the possibility of a Smoke Explosion is non-existent. Read your material kids,

    As the Eng. rolled up I would have them grab a hydrent and drive up to side two and hit the fire with the deck gun to knock it down while readying a 1 3/4 with class A foam hand line to go in and knock the down the rest of the fire.
    Well, since we have determined that a Backdraft isn't an issue here, You take 2 Pressurized Water cans up the steps or thru a Ground Ladder on an Exterior Window. But like Airborne said, chaces of survival are pretty slim with 2nd floor conditions like that. Now, do you wanna try and be a hero? Well, I am sure some of you do....but the only place I ever see people who try to be Heroes is in the Obituaries.

    You can all sit here and go thru these "What would you do" scenarios, but until you actually have to "do" you will never be able to armchair quarterback. And remember, this is coming from somebody who "Missed One" during a search.......

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    All I have to say is WOW! TillerMan25, you hit the nail on the head, this scenario is not possible. It was a trick question. Way to go.

    Well being a hosehead I would wait for the Eng. and the real FF to arrive. lol jk
    Hey dfd, real firemen can do it with 2 and 1/2 gallons of water. Jk with ya, don't get your hose all kinked up!
    Last edited by WFDjr1; 05-02-2003 at 08:12 AM.
    These are my opinions, not those of my career department, my volunteer company, or my affiliates. And by the way, I'm not a Junior.

    Buy me a drink, sing me a song, take me as I come 'cause I can't stay long.

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    Hey dfd, real firemen can do it with 2 and 1/2 gallons of water.
    We probally could I just wanted to use our nifty new Engine!

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    if u had the heavy smoke/fire as soon as u got there wouldnt the roof becomeing down soon?

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    Now that you said that about the roof, why risk your firefighters on a intirior attack? Even if there are people in the building, they are more than likely dead already.
    No longer an explorer, but I didn't wanna lose my posts.

    IACOJ 2003

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    Originally posted by Quigger
    if u had the heavy smoke/fire as soon as u got there wouldnt the roof becomeing down soon?
    NO! You should be careful but its not a sure sign that there is a impending collapse, it depends on the construction.But yes it will collapse if you let it go long enough and your departments nick name is "Basement Savers"

    What do you do to alleviate a potential Backdraft?
    Answer: You ventilate from the highest point of the dwelling. Now if the Fire has ALREADY VENTED itself to the point that you have "heavy smoke and fire showing from the second floor, side 2 and 4" then the possibility of a Smoke Explosion is non-existent. Read your material kids,
    Tell that to the Lynn firefighter that was killed by a backdraft going by that logic "gee if there is a big hole in the roof that must mean there is no more danger".

    What if the heat had moved by conduction down a pipe or through a wall into that front room with the picture window room started a fire in that front room but its doors were closed and that fire had free burned to the point of excludeing its own oxygen supply? Yup you run right in that room there let me know!

    -dfd
    Last edited by dfdex1; 05-02-2003 at 06:21 PM.

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    ive got a scenario for you guys. u get a call at 17:00 report of a house on fire and setting the trees on fire near the house.the house is at the shore of a bay.the only way to get trucks to the house is by useing the village well feild roads(has a key card gate).1 promble with this whole thing the house is at the bottem of a 200 puls 45-50 degee slope and no drive way down.wind is comeing out of the north-northwest.there is also a lagre satlite dish used for a TV station at the very top of this hill/clif.the fire is also climeing the hill at 45ish degee slope going both south and north away from the house.what do u do?

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    Originally posted by Quigger
    ive got a scenario for you guys. u get a call at 17:00 report of a house on fire and setting the trees on fire near the house.the house is at the shore of a bay.the only way to get trucks to the house is by useing the village well feild roads(has a key card gate).1 promble with this whole thing the house is at the bottem of a 200 puls 45-50 degee slope and no drive way down.wind is comeing out of the north-northwest.there is also a lagre satlite dish used for a TV station at the very top of this hill/clif.the fire is also climeing the hill at 45ish degee slope going both south and north away from the house.what do u do?
    Get spell check?
    Last edited by dfdex1; 05-02-2003 at 09:07 PM.

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    Call the calvery!!!!!!
    No longer an explorer, but I didn't wanna lose my posts.

    IACOJ 2003

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    Call the calvery!!!!!!
    good anwser. yea my spelling at the greatest.

    any1 want to try and anwser this or shall i just tell u the answer to this?

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    Mind if I ask a few questions before you "just give us the answer"?

    1. how the heck is there no driveway down? I suppose that when they built the house, they just hovered the building materials over the trees to a ready-made clearing...

    2. If the wind is coming out of the North/Northwest, how is the fire spreading both North and South?

    3. The scenario you present is not a house at the bottom of a hill, it sounds more like it's on the floor of a frigin valley!

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    alright this isnt a scenario this really happened and i was there. the fire did go both ways but more to south.the house didnt a drive way becuase it was a water ski club. go here for pictures www.mcfw.com. we have 11 fire companys on secne and 15 all together. i think when they built the house many years ago so i cant tell u how they did it. 6 fire fighters were hurt at this fire but not too bad. i was 1 of 5 explorers. 2 explorers also got hurt but not too bad.as i said it came in at 17:00ish and i left around 23:00ish. the kids who started it have been charged.

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    If it's catching the woods on fire, it's not our problem anymore. Call the forestry department, they'll handle it. That's why we're STRUCTURAL firefighters!
    These are my opinions, not those of my career department, my volunteer company, or my affiliates. And by the way, I'm not a Junior.

    Buy me a drink, sing me a song, take me as I come 'cause I can't stay long.

    Johnny Greene: 2/3/45-5/2/04
    Forever in our hearts

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    Quigger,
    Your link doesn't work directly. I had to cut and paste into another browser window to get it to work.

    How about broadening the question a bit: how do you attack a fire where you can't get the attack engine close enough to use standard pre-connect hand lines?

    I believe examples of a way to do this appear in your pictures.

    More questions:
    1. What advantages do you have because the fire is downhill from the engine?
    2. What disadvantages do you have because the fire is downhill from the engine?
    Proud to be honored with IACOJ membership. Blessed by TWO meals cooked by Cheffie - a true culinary goddess. Expressing my own views, not my organization's.

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    Originally posted by WFDjr1
    If it's catching the woods on fire, it's not our problem anymore. Call the forestry department, they'll handle it. That's why we're STRUCTURAL firefighters!
    With a phrase like that I'm left wondering that you are probably a paid fireman. As a volunteer our job is to put the fire out. We depend on support from the community, and burning down a forest while waiting on forestry to get there isn't the best thing for public relations. If your going to wait for forestry you might as well go ahead and call for a water drop.
    Ceredo Fire-Rescue
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    "Live Long, Die Fast, have as much fun possible in between."

    These are my opinions, not my departments.

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    If it's catching the woods on fire, it's not our problem anymore. Call the forestry department, they'll handle it. That's why we're STRUCTURAL firefighters!
    well i dont think western up state New York has a forestry dept if we did. being able to get them there in time before the homes on the other side of those woods go up in smoke would be kinda hard.the fire was moveing pretty good.
    how do you attack a fire where you can't get the attack engine close enough to use standard pre-connect hand lines?
    alot of hose 1000s of feet of hose.
    2. What disadvantages do you have because the fire is downhill from the engine?
    we had to take the hose down the hill and back up it along with man power going up and down this hill.
    Last edited by Quigger; 05-03-2003 at 10:40 AM.

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    SmokeEater, I'm not a paid guy yet. I still have to graduate high school and wait for a spot to open up. We don't fight woods fires, since there are no woods in the city, and we don't get called for mutual aid on them because we have no need for a tanker or brush truck.


    alot of hose 1000s of feet of hose.
    Even if there was pressure gain from the elevation drop, using thousands of feet of hose would create so much friction loss that you would get not much more than a trickle out of the nozzle. You would be better off using putting class A foam through a line with an aerating nozzle on it, and building a nice thick blanket of foam at the top of the hill you're on, to hopefully slow the fire until a Hot Shot team or other group comes in, and get the hell off the hill. The hill isn't exactly the safest place to be.
    These are my opinions, not those of my career department, my volunteer company, or my affiliates. And by the way, I'm not a Junior.

    Buy me a drink, sing me a song, take me as I come 'cause I can't stay long.

    Johnny Greene: 2/3/45-5/2/04
    Forever in our hearts

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    Default Forget the hose!

    Quigger,do what I would do wait for it to rain.

    >>>>dfd puts on head dress and gets magic staff(from the Firestore.com) from rear compartment of nifty new engine and proceds to do a rain dance<<<<<< "HIYA WOO HAHHH HIYA HIYA HIYA WOOO HAHA HIYAAAAA....."


    Did anyone think of carrying the portable pump down and drafting out of the bay?

    -dfd

    Hey WFD congrats on your 500th too!
    Last edited by dfdex1; 05-03-2003 at 07:08 PM.

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    we didnt take any portable pumps down but we did have our fire boat which has a pump down there pumping

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    Originally posted by SmokeEater661
    With a phrase like that I'm left wondering that you are probably a paid fireman. As a volunteer our job is to put the fire out. We depend on support from the community, and burning down a forest while waiting on forestry to get there isn't the best thing for public relations. If your going to wait for forestry you might as well go ahead and call for a water drop.
    Just what in the F**K is this supposed to mean? Do you think a paid department is handed everything from some Fire Fairy? Guess what! As a fulltime firefighter, my job is to put the fire out also, big surprise huh? Public relations is a HUGE part of the Paid job, not that it isn't for the Volunteer job either, but guess what! I'm more scrutinzed for my paid job then when I'm volunteering. Why? Because people (Like you!) don't think I do anything and therefore belive they should cut my job. Is the fire I fight any different then the one you fight? I seriously doubt it!
    You had better start back peddling now...


    *Mark
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