1. #1
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    Default 2 man engines don't work!!!!!!!!!!!

    Here's why

    U have a 2 1/2 story taxpayer with fire showing in a bedroom in c -d sides( GOOD WATER SUPPLY). Arrive engine with only 2 man on it would be able to do notMUCH AND here'S why.....

    1 man needs to run the pump (must stay with truck)
    1 man can strecth a line by himself (1 man can do this)
    2 man should enter the building, 3 is the best option ( 1 nozzle man, 1 backup man and 1 hose puller, in addition to 3 man int. team a man should be placed in the door way pulling hose as the int. team advances. 4 man is ideal

    Basic Engine ops
    1 man for pump
    2 man for int. ops
    1 man for hose pullings(not fun when u have to pull hose all over the house)

    2 man engine is a disaster waiting to happen I don't care if they r super firemen.
    -------------------------------
    fORGET ABOUT VENT OPS WITH ONLY 2 MAN(COULD BE DONE BUT NOT WORTH IT)
    -------------------------------

    2 man Engine can be used for laying a supply line( this is where u have the least amount of manpower. (don't need 4 guys.....2 guys enuff)

    Thank god I'm not the chief knowing I only have 2-3 guys on a truck!


    IMAGINE THE SAME SITUATION IS IN A PART OF TOWN WITH POOR WATER SUPPLYS.

    ANOTHER ?? IS wEST WARWICK ALL PAID OF IS IT A COMBO FIRE DEPT?

  2. #2
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    It's all paid but still distributed like they were still vollies. Small city (8 square miles or so), but they keep each neighborhood station (formed when they were volunteer) open to keep the residents happy instead of consolidating the manpower into a couple properly staffed units.

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    I think for vollies, all you need it a 2 man rig, unless there are people at the firehouse alot hanging around or wut ever.

    The towns that wait until they get a full truck to roll are ridiculous. who cares about all that "too many povs" ****, if you have a driver, for the truck then get in and go, doesnt matter how many people are on it. Odds are that there will be atleast two people at the scene before the any truck arives.

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    coming from an all volunteer fire co. i know exaclty what kvfcjr is talking about. during the daytime the truck only rolls with 2 or 3 ppl. and that is good enough around here.

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    mk231975, come work with me for a week. My department runs 3- 3 man engines and 1- 2 man engine. Can my company do everything that you posted above? Damn rights we can! Are we completly safe? No. Do I have to work harder to do the same job you do with 5 guys? Oh yeah! When we get a job, on the two man company, we "usually" don't catch a supply line, we stretch out, force entry and tell the next-in company to man our pump panel. Can't happen? It does more then you'd like to know. Good for us, surrounding companies aren't too far off (less then 5 minutes after our arrival). We've been pretty lucky. Do we want to continue to run with 2 & 3 man engines? No! We all wished we lived in a perfect world like yours, but we don't. Welcome to the real world. Instead of telling us what we can't do and what we need to have to do the job, tell us how we can get that stuff to do our job right please.
    kvfcjr, come volunteer with my department for a week. We have a "No responding POV" policy. Everyone comes to the station. If we went driver-only on every single call, we'd have guys standing around the station looking for a ride. What do you gain by leaving with 1 guy? Not a single thing. You're not for certain that you'll have "at least two people" at the scene. The fricken apparatus could arrive driver-only and have no one else around. What is a bigger hazard, waiting for 4 people or hoping that there are folks on scene by the time you get there. You can't send out a flock shot in reguards to VFD's. They all operate differently.


    *Mark
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    Ecery dept is differant. For our dept, rolling a 1 man truck is normal, and there are usually guys already there.

    Yours may be dif. what ever works i guess right, no one is wrong.......

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    If they really had to they could have a civillian man the deck gun or something... if it was really required and if they knew no one for sure was inside they could just have the other guy pull a line to fight from the outside.

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    I'd have to agree with the first part of Mark's post, can't speak on the second part. On the same note, 2 ff engines are very limited as to what they can accomplish. Those dept's who are lucky enough to have 4-5-6+ ff per apparatus can't embrace the fact that there are many smaller dept's that have no other option then to run 1-2-3 ff per. Which is no fault on their part because it's all they've know. Doing more with less is possible. Is it safe? Depend's on who critiques it! Do we have LODD in dept's that run 5 ff engines? YES. Do we have LODD in dept's that have only 1 ff per engine? YES. The job is still the same, it doesnt matter if there is 1 or 6 ff on the engine. The key is short crews must prioritize what tasks need their immediate attention. Where large crew's can concentrate on their preassign (vent, search, fire attack, etc.) task's knowing those other jobs are or will be completed. Let me know when the fire service becomes a utopia. Otherwise there will always be 1-2 ff engines responding to calls.


    CaptD

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    I guess my vol comp. is lucky, we can man 2 engines with 4 people in each truck at any time of day. 3 man engine can do the job, but it is going to be alot harder. I guess u have to do the best u can, with what your dealt with.

    Ok Mark what is the average reponse time of your backup 3 man engine after the first engine arrives. 3 man engine can work but 2 man engine won't. I guess at a fire u have 1 man work the pump and the other 2 man go inside, it can work but that alot of hose dragging. 3 man engine can work for house fires but anything bigger u will not fair very well. Ok Mark what do u guys do when u have a 4-5 story apt building fire, with fire on the 4th floor and people trapped on the 5th. Another ? how many engine, truck, rescue companies does your dept run and is your comp. paid or volly.

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    The only thing i'm sayin is that there is no reason why cities, can't run 4 man engines and if u don't have the manpower meaning your a small town then i understand that, JUST BE SAFE

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    Maybe we are lucky, not a 4 story building in the county I haven't heared 2 in 2 out mentioned

    be safe

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    what is the average reponse time of your backup 3 man engine after the first engine arrives.
    Less then 5 minutes for the next due company.
    it can work but that alot of hose dragging.
    Welcome to the short-handed fire department!
    what do u guys do when u have a 4-5 story apt building fire, with fire on the 4th floor and people trapped on the 5th.
    Luckily, my department does not cover these kinds of things. There are a couple hotels and some business buildings, but no apartment buildings. We're 3-4th due in these structures. We'd improvise like we do with everything else. Make due with what you have. Remember, (1) Life Safety (2) Property Conservation.
    Another ? how many engine, truck, rescue companies does your dept run and is your comp. paid or volly.
    Paid Department Stats:
    3-3 Man engines 1-2 Man Engine. No rescues, squads or truck companies.
    We cover about 1,200 square miles total, approximately 85,000 in our first due areas, total county population that we are subject to calls in with MA agreements, nearly 200,000. We have 33 fulltime Firefighters, Drivers, Captains and nearly 40 parttime firefighters.
    The county as a whole has nearly 250 fulltime firefighters and maybe another 100 volunteers, parttime or reserve members.
    Total county call volume (I post the whole county, because no one runs less then 2 and no more then 3, unless they have a reserve riding.) approximately 30,000 calls. There are 9 FD's in this county, 2 are totally volunteer, 1 staffed during daytime, and the rest are paid 24 hours a day.
    Volunteer Department Stats:
    2- Class A Engines, seating for 5. 3- Squads (Intermediate-ALS First Responder). 2- Type 6 brush trucks. 1- 2,000 gallon water tender. 1- Chief ride & 2 special service vehicles.
    Cover about 50 square miles, 2 cities, 1 town & other unincorporated areas in our jurisdiction. Population nearly 15,000. We have 35 volunteer members. Run about 400 calls a year. Average turn out time is less then 5 minutes. We can staff an engine with at least 4 people most of the day within 5 minutes. But, as with volunteer departments, that is not always the case.

    *Mark
    FTM-PTB-RFB-EGH

  13. #13
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    Smile I Respectfully Disagree.....

    Several that have posted here have said something to the effect of "if you don't have enough people, it's OK, I understand". Well, I don't understand, not one damn bit. I would ask that anyone who wishes to pursue my statement kindly look at my posts in the other "2 man engine" thread. Thanks, Stay Safe....
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  14. #14
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    give me some money and i'll buy an engine that seats more then 2.
    NREMT-P\ Reserve Volunteer Firefighter\Reserve Police Officer
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  15. #15
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    Well in a perfect world we all would have 4-6 man engines and
    4 man trucks, and 5 man rescues on every call with high flow hydrants
    and the most state of the art equipment. But back here in the REAL world we have to make due with what we have!!!!! I would love to have more people but thats not how it is. Anyone who wants to contribute more money so that it can happen that we have a 4 man truck, drop me an email and I'll give you the info to send your check. But does our 2 -3 man engine fight fire and do it aggressively...HELL YES!!!!
    Are we completely safe..NO but we didn't choose a job where your safe behind a desk pushing pencils, we are FIREFIGHTERS!!!! We make sure thatwe are safe as absolutly possble.
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    Some one please explain to me what options there are?

    My Department runs 2 Stations with a 7 man max/6 man min shift.

    On a Box we get 2 engines and the truck with 6 people ( truck is basically parked and waits for off duty people). Bottom line, 3 guys for attack including pump operator with backup personnel 3 to 5 minutes away. (off duty may get there sooner..but thay could all be on vacation too)

    Do we get the job done? Yes

    Are we running by the skin on our *****? Yes

    Do we have a freakin choice? Not when the Town keeps looking for ways to cut our budget.

    You do the best you can do with what you have. You rely on your training, you push in when you can, you back out when you can't. You are going to when some, lose some....and others it hard to tell.

    Financial constraints are the biggest limitation every fire departments faces. And we don't always control the purse strings, so you can't just hire 12 more guys to make it safe. And even Vollie departments ( and this is a slam ) so you man a 4 man engine...are they all competent..or just an ***** for the seat. I know around here there are alot of bodies in Turn out gear that keep the numbers up, but are no where near useful when the poop is flying around.

    There is no magic solutiuon. You have to learn to work in your enviroment as safely as possible. Jakes have been doing this for years and will continue to do so.....

    Dave

  17. #17
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    hfd66truck

    My department is same basically. We have 5 on a shift (1 station) with a 4 person minimum...but try to keep 5 using a part timer. But two of us are on a First response Rescue vehicle (non transport) and stay busy. Not uncommon for 1 person to be left at station staffing the pumper... We get a transport unit from the County, but because of several reasons, we do not have mutual response on fires. When we have a fire the off duty personnel are paged and if you hear the page(our communication system leaves room for improvement)we are supposed to come in for second unit. But....there obviously is a lag time for that to occur.

    No more people because of budget...but continue to do more with less is the expectation.
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
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    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  18. #18
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    AHMEN HFD and CAPTSTAN!!!!! I wish we had the people but it just isn't going to happen. like you both said you make due with what you have.

    <"thinking to himself" Was hoping that someone would write a blank check for more manpower...darn no luck>
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    So, would you turn away competent volunteers? Seems to me you are already calling back off duty personnel, could not volunteers be called to respond at the same time? Could that not get you another 3 or 4 competent FF's? Ever tried it?

    Want to complain about shortage of manpower, try all the options while you are doing it. It may not work, it may not be feasible in your area, but it might. You don't know if you have not tried it.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  20. #20
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    Bones, we are a combo dept. but we have found that we get very few
    Volunteer FF during the 7a-5p area. After that time we have plenty of FF. My whole issue is that they are claiming a 2 or 3 man engine isn't enough. It may not be enough normally but we have to make it enough for the first few minutes!!!!!!!!!!!!
    AKA: Mr. Whoo-Whoo

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    Default Re: I Respectfully Disagree.....

    Originally posted by hwoods
    Several that have posted here have said something to the effect of "if you don't have enough people, it's OK, I understand". Well, I don't understand, not one damn bit. I would ask that anyone who wishes to pursue my statement kindly look at my posts in the other "2 man engine" thread. Thanks, Stay Safe....

    hwoods,
    I understand your views of staffing, I agree with you to some point. What I do not understand is if you are talking about full-time departments, volunteer departments, or both. As far a the full-time goes I have no business discussing that, but I will comment on the volunteer side of things. The biggest problem is the fact that you can't make people do what that name says, volunteer! We've tried recruitment letters, newpaper ads, I've even offered to go door to door. Everyone says that don't have the time, but nothing that department does is good enough or fast enough for them. My department suffers from this problem greatly. We have 25 active members, but need 40. Luckily, about 15 of those 25 are very commited. Day time calls people are scarce, and we are lucky to roll our 2 man truck with two people on board. I don't know what type of department you come from, but it sounds like you have never expericened a staffing shortage. I could be wrong, probably am, but that's my opinion.

    As far as the 2 man engine arguement. YES, my department has one and it is a very good truck. When it was purchased (1985)it fuctioned very well as a first in truck, but when NFPA decided that firefighters couldn't ride on the back of trucks any more it was limited in what it could do. It is still first out on MVAs and brush fires, but is second out for any structure fire. 2 man trucks shouldn't be abandon by the fire service, because they do work, but only in certain situations. AND some departments can't afford a nice custom or 4-5 man commercial truck.

    One think I love about the truck is the hose reel. How many new trucks do you see with one of those on them? Not that many.

  22. #22
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    they are claiming a 2 or 3 man engine isn't enough. It may not be enough normally but we have to make it enough for the first few minutes!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Amen brother. Stay safe and good luck.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  23. #23
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    Smile OK......

    Several things...... Capt. Stan is an officer and a gentleman, and has an excellent background in our business. If he has a small operation with few/no volunteers, I'm sure it's not because he didn't try everything he could. Next, "2 man trucks", When talking about "2 man" we are referring to the crew, not the type of truck cab construction. (sometimes my writings wander....) Type of Department, No department, Paid, Volunteer, or Combination should be shorthanded. If It's a paid department with no volunteers, recruit some! Unions should be smart enough to work FOR this, get volunteers on, then work to convert those positions to paid. Recruiting, I still believe the best way to recruit new members is a face to face encounter at people's front door. We have, and are planning to again, do a door to door thing. This works. As I have said, TRY SOMETHING! Stay Safe....
    Last edited by hwoods; 05-06-2003 at 05:50 PM.
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
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  24. #24
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    For a while Baltimore was riding with three men because they didn't want to pay overtime, the fire fighters made it work, but it was starting to wear thin. Taking a 1 3/4 inch hose in a dwelling by yourself isn't alot of fun!

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    My Town use to have paid on call, as well as paid staff. But a lack of response, combined with increased costs of insurance, plus an increase requirement for training caused the Town to opt away from this system. That and the fact that these "minimum wage" employees converted to base FF pay if injured or god forbid killed in the line of duty. How's that for a reason.

    And Paid on Call or vollunteer still doesn't answer the problem...completely. We usually get the manpower, thats why we recall off duty members...but there are times...as with any department..that "poop happens". That was the point of my post

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