Thread: Seagrave Buyout

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    Default Seagrave Buyout

    Not to toot my own horn, LOL, but I told you guys about the buyout 3 or 4 months ago. And now the facts come out substantiating my earlier thread. Just wanted to pass it along.

    Stay low and move it in.
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


    Larry

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    Toot all you want, but you were wrong! Your earlier post had Pierce buying Seagrave. I checked the entire thread and you were adamant about the buyer being Pierce, "I tell you guys, it's a done deal." Jim Hebe has never had anything to do with Pierce Manufacturing or Oshkosh. Just want to set the record straight.
    Be safe Larry.

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    Oh how right you are Engine 153, how right you are. Now don't go thinking the evolutionary process of buying Seagrave is done. What is being seen right now is just the surface. LOL. I am willing to bet you there is more to come with Hebe and the "buyout".
    If you check that thread, many people stated that their "contacts" at Seagrave (i.e: friends, dealers, etc.) knew nothing about Seagrave being bought by anyone. So, with that being kept quiet until recently, it makes sense that the remainder of the process, or next step, is being kept as quiet as possible also. We'll see in the next 2-3 months where everything settles. Just some thoughts.

    Stay low and move it in.
    Stay low and move it in.

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    Larry

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    Why would Hebe want to sell out? He has proven in the past taht he knows how to run a company when he turned around ALF. The only difference with him running Seagrave he is the owner. Station 2 you have proved the your sources are not to good so I will end with You saying that Pierce buying Seagrave!!!!!!!

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    Maybe you consider ALF a successful turn around story, but there are people at Freightliner that would probably disagree with you. LOL. That is a company that will be interesting to watch in the near future. 1985 - Shut Down #1 at Elmira. 1994 - Shut Down #2 in Virginia. 2003-2004 - Shut down #3 in North Carlonia, Wyoming, etc.? Just some ideas. Could be interesting. LOL. As for Seagrave, why the hell would Hebe want to be an owner now? Everyone knows that there is more money in buying a company and then parting it out to the competition than retaining ownership and leaving it as it was bought (Complete with debt load). We may be seeing just the beginning of corporate raidership in the fire apparatus industry. As I said before, see what happens in the next few months. Just some thoughts.

    Stay low and move it in.
    Stay low and move it in.

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    Larry

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    Question ALF?

    Although I know it's not "directly" related to the Seagrave stuff, it's still important to remember that Hebe did not "turn around" ALF. The ONLY thing that the existing ALF company has to do with the ALF's of New York and Virginia is the NAME. People forget that these are Freightliner fire trucks carrying the ALF nameplate of yesteryear.
    Hebe was just in the right place at the right time.

    How about the Aherns-Fox rigs that are available now? How much do you think these rigs have to do with the "classic" Aherns-Fox? Just another company doing what ALF did - making a name for themselves on a name they purchased the rights to.

    Makes ya think...

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    Along those lines, how about some honesty in the industry. ALF states in their ads "Since 1832". As both of you have stated, this ALF company has absolutely nothing to do with the original company. My guess is that the hope would be, after awhile everyone would forget about the previous history. Seems to me that this is dishonest at best and possibly even fraudulent to imply that this is the same company. (I am not a lawyer). But ALF isn't alone. Although E-ONE doesn't claim otherwise, to advertise a platform model as HP-105 implies that the unit actually extends to 105 feet. Guess what, it only goes to 102 feet. Same as with the Model 95. What you get is a 92 foot platform. I know Larry, it all depends on how you measure it. KME states that they have over 300 cab and chassis combinations. They probably do when you factor in cab model, cab length, door style, seating arrangement, engine choice, etc. But don't try and tell me that they have more than anyone else. I would bet that E-ONE has at least the same number of combinations, and Pierce with even more chassis models available should have even more combinations. All I am saying is that don't try to BS me with deception or implications. VENDORS, be honest.

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    Brother Engine 153, I couldn't agree more. Vendors need to be honest and up front. The ALF "the tradition continues" line is old and deceptive at best and fraudulent at worse I would agree.

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    Be safe.


    Larry

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    A couple of things.

    1) I think Hebe has a cetain love of fire apparatus and always wanted his own company. It was known throughout the industry that he was looking to buy anybody that would sell at the right price.

    2) He has an uphill battle. With Seagrave building being old and the union to contend with, plus not much new as far as engineering. This is an old product, with old facilities, with very few upgrades throughout the years. Seems like a MAJOR challenge.

    With all that, I still say WHY, of all companies, did he purchase Seagrave?

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    Default Why?

    With all that, I still say WHY, of all companies, did he purchase Seagrave?

    Maybe because they make one the most rugged trucks buildt? Maybe because it's all FDNY buys? Maybe because their a respected major manufacturer? Maybe because...............

    You'll get the idea.

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    Why not It is not like he has to go out and find costmers. With New York,D.C.,L.A., Lousville all buying a majority of their trucks from them. Also prior to 9/11 Seagrave was working with Terry Hatton from rescue one to develop a Heavey Rescue if not for 9/11 New Yorks Heavey Rescues would be made by Seagrave and I would say in the five to ten they all will be. Big accounts like that pay the bills. As for the old buildings their has been rummors of them buying the ALF plant that will be closing soon in Shano Wisconsin that facility is only five years old. I would say it was a smart move by Hebe

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    Just another thought here, if I may. LOL. Look at who Hebe has as "partners" in the Seagrave buyout. It is very interesting that the the vast majority of the individuals are sitting members on the Pierce Board. Just a thought after a phone call I got the other day from one of my "uncredible, mis guided and totally wrong" friends. Just a thought.

    As for why Seagrave, I agree with some of the others. If nothing else it is name recognition that was bought. Plus a long line of tried and true Seagrave customers that will buy nothing else. Lets face it, E-One/Saulsbury tore their chance at repeating with F.D.N.Y. by treating them like crap and telling them they don't want their business. Seagrave is a natural selection for the next generation of Rescue Co. rigs and the like since their pumers and aerials come from them already and they have a GOOD relationship both pre and post 9/11. The icing on the cake is that overall, any maker can build a good pumper if the relationship between builder and buyer is sound, trusting and honest with open communications and the firm knowledge of who is in charge. As long as the customer stays on his/her tract with their specs then anyone can build something that will meet the satisfaction of the customer, Seagrave included (Smeal is the only questionable builder. LOL. But what do you expect from apparatus made in a corn field in Nebraska. LOL.).

    P.S.: ALF is another story altogether. LOL.


    Stay low and move it in.
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


    Larry

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    I assume you are referring to Oshkosh Truck's board of directors as there is no board for Pierce. If so then your "friends" are still uncredible, misguided and totally wrong.

    There are no members of OTC's board involved with the purchase of Seagrave. How could there be? Oshkosh is a publicly traded corporation and if this would occur the SEC would have a field day. Ever heard of conflict of interests? What about Oshkosh's stock holders. Do you honestly think they would stand by and allow a sitting member of the board be involved with the purchase of a competitor? I don't think so. The press announcement states that Hebe and an investment firm from Penna purchased the company. I just reviewed the latest annual report from Oshkosh and can't find a single board member from Penna. Again, being publicly traded this is all public information.

    Finally, Bob Bohn, chairman of the board for OTC, stated not more than four months ago that Oshkosh was not interested in purchasing Seagrave. This announcement was prior to Hebe signing on the dotted line.

    Basically there is no connection between Pierce and the Seagrave purchase.

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    In time the truth will be told, in time. I am not asking anyone to change their mind on this issue, just remain objective to the possibility. As for conflict of interest, yes I have heard of it as well as insider trading and all the other SEC buzz words. But thanks anyway. And certainly you are not naive enough to think that a person has to reside in the state that the group is named for? There is no law prohibiting one from owning stock or being an investor in a company if the company is in a state other than the one in which the investor resides. So there are no Pa. residents on the OTC board. Not a big deal. So Mr. Bohn stated that OTC had no interest in Seagrave. Again not a big deal. If I wanted to buy a company I would deny any desire to aquire said targeted company for fear of attracting the attention of competitors and in turn driving the price of the buy out up. Its supply and demand. The more of something there is available the lower the price, the scarcer a desired commodity or product is the higher the price. All in all, I believe it to be a big smoke screen hiding another smoke screen. It'll come out in the long run I believe. And as for my "friends", they are usually right. Just some thoughts.

    Stay low and move it in.
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


    Larry

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    You are certainly correct- a person does not have to reside in one state to own stock or even sit on a board in another state. I agree with you there.

    Personally I think the threat of an SEC investigation or the stockholders finding out that what you propose has/will happened would be enough for me to steer clear.

    Enjoy the wait because I think its going to be a long one!

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    Sven73, fair enough.

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    Larry

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    Talking

    All I know is that if Oshkosh buys Seagrave (pierce can'tbuy them, there are owned by OTC) the quality of Pierce will get worse then it is now.
    GFIRE

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    How could buying a company cause the quality to go down I donot understand!!!!I anything Seagraves Quality would go down
    Last edited by nrz2334; 06-12-2003 at 12:11 AM.

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    If the buying company (lets call it X) takes over another company (lets call it Y), then X can impose their quality control, assembly line production methods, buying of cheaper materials, poorer engineering concepts and practices, etc. on the company it just bought to try and improve production numbers. The overall product quality therefore goes down for company Y and tarnishes their name in their respective industry. Just some thoughts.

    Stay low and move it in.
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    Larry

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    Cool

    Or if they try to build to many trucks to fast things get missed etctetcetc.
    GFIRE

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    Default Seagrave Buy Out

    Larry
    You are a well versed guy, I admire your knowledge in all aspects of the fire service. You must have great CONNECTIONS to have the information you have on Pierce and Seagrave.

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    Let's look at why Mr. hebe would want to buy Seagrave = FDNY!!! When Mr. Hebe revived ALF, he had grand visions of getting ALF's into NYC and becomong a major player in the FDNY fleet. He even got the NJ/NY Seagrave dealer to switch to ALF. This dealer had very strong in-roads in the FDNY, as they were the dealer for the City, and thus thought that this would work. Well it did not. Hebe wanted FDNY, but did not have the product to do it, and, I beleive, under-estimated the FDNY/Seagrave bond. Aquiring Seagrave gives him the FDNY without any headaches at all. He does not have to go in there and try and sell them on another product. All of the ground work has been done. Let's face it, that is a BIG contract to have. If I was ALF, I would watch-out. Mr. Hebe has a few axes to grind with them and has his sights set on South Carolina, (or wherever they are building today).I truly do not believe that he will sell Seagrave to another company.

    Just my .02 worth. Stay Safe!!
    GRC063

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    grc063, excellent point about the "why" of it all. Also remember there was an ALF demo, built to FDNY specs, that was shown prior to 9-11 that was slated for "evaluation" in FDNY. That rig was bought after the 9-11 attacks and pressed into service. So what you say makes sense. As for the selling off, even rich people with "stroke" get bored with their "pet projects" after a while. LOL.

    Stay low and move it in.
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    Be safe.


    Larry

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    Default The REAL story

    Ok boys and girls, gather round.....

    A long time ago, when firetrucks were FIRETRUCKS....Names like Maxim...Hahn....American Lafrance...Mack....Ward LaFrance....all existed. Trucks were built with pride, workmanship....Unlike today...they are mass produced without any forethought of quality. They are mass produced in places like Ocala, Florida....Nesquehoning, Pa.....

    A certain young lad by the name of James Hebe graduates college with a degree in engineering. He seeks and receives employment at a well known fire apparatus manufacturing firm by the name of American LaFrance.....Also, at the same time, a certain young gentleman (who will remain nameless, mainly because I can not afford an attorney at the moment....) seeks and receives employment at the same afforementioned firm.

    The two young lads become very adept at their jobs of designing fire apparatus and applying their skills in the quality control department. They also excell at creating new ideas and innovations for their firm. The story has it, that young Mr. Hebe created a brilliant idea....One that would revolutionize the fire apparatus manufacturing industry......The idea that the other young gentleman decided to steal and submit as his own. The same young gentleman that is now the CEO/Operations of Pierce Manufacturing!

    Young Mr. Hebe leaves ALF several years after rightly accusing the other young gentleman of stealing his ideas. He is hired by a heavy truck manufacturing firm in dire financial trouble. Mr. Hebe turns Freightliner's woes around and makes them into what is now a world-class truck manufacturer. Some of his business practices and ideas left a lot to be desired. (too lengthy to list here...) In the process, in an effort to stick it up the other young gentleman's "six", he purchases the assets of now-long since defunct ALF. He begins to flush the fire apparatus market with publicity, and eagerly and rapidly fills orders.

    Here come the Krauts. Some dumbkopft in Stuttgart, who knows a thing or two about luxury automobiles, with some extra deutschemarks in his pocket and too much time at the hofbrau haus, decides to purchase Freightliner. After reviewing the books, they decide that Mr. Hebe would be better left to heading up the ALF division. So he heads up the ALF division, thinking all is well. WRONG! The Krauts, in their shotgun approach to damage control, decide that Mr. Hebe's past practices have damaged Frightliner beyond control. They decide to issue Herr Hebe his "Valking Papers" Herr Hebe ist kaput.

    He has remained low for the past few years....Until recently when he has decided to come back and purchase FWD, who happens to own SEAGRAVE. Not only has he purchased Pierce's direct competition (remember the young gentleman who is now CEO of Pierce??) he has purchased a prime, quality manufacturer of heavy-duty all wheel drive chassis, mainly for the heavy construction market. Along with Seagrave, he has also purchased a little' old thang called Aerialscope. So children....Not only has he purchased an apparatus manufacturer of engines and ladders, he has a heavy chassis he can now put CFR apparatus on (hmmm....who owns Oshkosh?) he also has a platform he can now market with his Seagrave apparatus (Scope!) And yes children....Mr Hebe aint too stoopid when he took into account that Seagrave is the primary supplier to FDNY! (For pumps, aerials and platforms!) Hmmmm......Think he is trying to tell Appleton something? Like...."KISS MY ARSE"?????

    Rumor has it that back when he left ALF the first time, he vowed revenge on a certain young gentleman! Additionally, it is also rumored that he has vowed revenge on "Der Fuhrer" of Mercedes.

    What better way to do this, than buy the one and only quality manufacturer of fire apparatus left in the country from "The Olde Days"???? If Hebe can kick some *** in Seagrave, make them more affordable, yet retain quality.......He can do some serious damage! Trust me....There are some seriously nervous lads in Appleton and Stuttgart!

    Story time is over kids. Yes Virginia, it's a true story! Now go to sleep.

    FTM-PTB-EGH-RFB

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    FWDBuff

    Great story, but a few corrections. James Hebe graduated from Lycoming College in Williamsport Penn with a Bachelor of Arts in Political Science and Business Adminsitration.

    He also purchased Seagrave with a group of private investors managed by Ballamor Capital Management of Wayne Pa.

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