05-27-2003, 11:52 PM #1
- Join Date
- Apr 2003
So what have we learned in this debate? That one large FD St Louis operates a Total Quint Concept for the last 16 years and one medium sized city operate quints and engines out of every house leaving the decision on which rig to take up to the officer in house. They over time reduced some staffing but had been doing it before quints.
One city Syracuse runs engines with minor 50 or 55 foot ladders and mini pumpers from all stations and their ladders are all quint towers. They didn’t reduce staffing with the addition of quints it happened later. They were in decline before quints.
Detroit operates 25 quads and quints with engines from all stations. They dumped 500 guys not because of quints.
Buffalo operates midi pumpers, pumpers and some quints. Staffing was in decline before quints.
The rest of the world operates a combination of whatever they think it takes to protect their city as well.
It is all about choice, some good some bad. Detroit’s quads, have water tanks, booster pumps and reels on 21 ladders. Why? Because like Houston they always did it that way. It allows a first in rig to attack a car fire, house fire, stretch a line to cover the rescue team, clean up tools or provide an overhaul line. If nothing else it offers greater flexibility to the company. Now we see reading the LT’s words if he is to be believed that they intentionally will not use the enhanced capabilities of their quints. Even though it is quite clear they do!
Houston didn’t maintain their quads, got embarrassed on national TV so stopped buying them. They did not reduce staffing using quads.
Many large cities have good sized quints because it makes more sense for a ladder to supply it self than require a second company apparatus and staffing, normally an engine to do it for them. Others think the Houston and Detroit concept of adding a $10,000 fire pump to the rig and no supply bed is just stupid. The small pump can’t support the ladder pipe. They’d rather add a $12,000 pump and supply bed and have a self sufficient rig.
The places like Detroit who use their aerials as ladder pipes do so at 500 gpm. Whereas their quints perform at 1000 to 2000 gpm. One flow or the other is a contradiction in understanding of fire flows. Either your master streams should be large or just slightly larger than a handline. Most would agree if you are going big streams then go big streams.
Ever wonder why the ladder pipe streams are so small on unplumbed typical big city ladders? Or even on the might Scope? The hydraulics of small hose fed by distant pumpers is why. The majority of the small 75 FOOT SCOPE REQUIRES 233 PSI AT THE SIAMESE TO FLOW 1000 GPM.
A 100 FOOT LADDER PIPE WITH A 3 INCH FEED LINE 110 FEET LONG REQUIRES 270 PSI AT THE SIAMESE. 100 FEET ELEVATION GAIN 43 PSI, PLUS 15 PSI IN THE SIAMESE, PLUS 100 OR 80 PSI NP, PLUS 10 OR MORE(NORMALLY A LOT MORE PSI LOSS IN THE GUN) PLUS THE LOSS IN THE MULTIPLE LINES INTO THE SIAMESE. QUITE SIMPLY IT ISN’T POSSIBLE TO CREATE A BIG STREAM WITHOUT A PLUMBED WATER WAY AND A BUILT IN PUMP. A LOT OF PLACES KID THEMSELVES INTO THINKING THEY CAN.
ONE FD I CAN THINK OF USES 4 INCH HOSE AT THE BASE OF THEIR TOWERS. SO 105 FOOT TOWER, NEEDS 250 PSI AT THE INLET FIGURED 43 PSI LOSS FOR ELEVATION, 100 PSI FOR THE NOZZLE AND 100 PSI PER NFPA FOR 1000 GPM FLOW LOSS IN THE PLUMBING AND WHAT EVER SIAMESE LOSS YOU LIKE TO ADD. THEN EACH 100 FEET OF4 INCH AT 1500 GPM ADDS 25 PSI MORE. IF YOU RUN 3000 GPM OR LARGER PUMPERS YOU’D HAVE NO TROUBLE SUPPLYING THE LADDER. THE FACT THEY ARE LIKEMOST FIRE DEPARTMENTS USING 200 PSI SUPPLY HOSE AT 275 PSI PLUS IS JUST A BONUS THROUGH A LIGHT WEIGHT CAST ALLOW 150 PSI VALVE IS JUST A BONUS.
NAH YOU DON’T NEED A PUMP AND PLUMBED WATERWAY JUST CUT THE FLOW BY 66% ANF YOU’LL BE FINE.
Some fire departments trust their crews and provide swiss army knife type apparatus for their crews. Typically quint or quad apparatus. Trusting their crews to do what is right through sops and or what the situation dictates these are the FT Worths, Las Vegas, Clark County, some LA city and county quints, and at least 50% of the ladders in the U.S.
Many large, middle and small towns run pumper ladders, even FDNY when they really ran structure fires used tele squirts and quints successfully.
And why not, isn’t an elevated stream more effective than a fixed deck gun? Certainly offers a greater selection of use. Some 2500 squirts have been produced.
It is all about choice, the choice of offering greater capability over any engine and ladder. If you want to cut staffing with them that too is a choice but most FD’s don’t choose to do that.
There is all kinds of sky is falling talk about quints and staffing but it is by far the exception not the rule.
If you had a choice would you rather have a ladder, engine or quint arrive first to your fire? The real choice is A, B, or an A/B option.
The argument of jack of all trades and master of none does not apply because quints do exist that are better set up than engines and others that are set up better than ladders and others that are4 set up better than ladders and engines. You get what you design.
Too big can be designed out, can’t get around our streets can be designed out, not enough water, hose, ladders, attack lines, loose equipment all can and have been designed out somewhere.
“I formerly worked for a department that had a bastardized quint concept. Many in that area do.”
So based upon on FD’s or several bastardized concepts no one could figure out how to use a Quint? So would a non bastardized quint concept work? Does anything bastardized work? It sounds to me like you have a firefighter and officer problem not a quint problem.
“I now work for a Dept that uses Engine/Trucks exclusively.”
So everything is all better now right? You don’t have to worry about ladders, using tools, or that big scary ladder right?? When you went through basic training was it just truck or engine, not overall firemanship? Odds are you were trained in everything, but got to the station and have been indoctrinated that you are only capable of doing one task or the other. So is it your or their departments members who aren’t trainable or is it the apparatus? So when you operate the engines and trucks in a bastardized way they don’t work well either right?
”I'll address those who don't understand why a Quint is really only half a truck or half and engine.”
Half huh? Yours didn’t have a 1250 to 2250 pump like an engine? Didn’t it have an entire ladder just as wide and just as wide as a ladder truck? If not, why not? If not who spec’d the truck? You do write specs to do the job properly?
”the rig has hose just like an Engine but is are the hose beds easily accessible?”
Gee I’m looking at one right now that has 2600 feet of 5 inch and 3000 feet of attack lines in the form of 13 preconnects, does you engine pack that? They are all loaded from the ground, no climbing the rig on the attack lines and the supply bed is loaded without raising the ladder. Clean shot design no turntable in the way. Didn’t your bastardized FD take the time to spec what you wanted? You didn’t ask for a dear e-one or pierce did you and let them spec the rig???? Did you? Sure sounds like it.
“Are there options on hose loads and amount?”
Um. It will lay dual 1300 foot five inch lines, or one 2600 foot line, or perform a drive by lay and have four 5 inch supply lines. It has dual 5 inch ldh monitors for reverse lays. Has dual carlin valves so no one has to even stay at the hydrant, just like every other department. I’m sure your engine can’t do any of that right? I’m sure your bastardized management laid things out right correct?
“Can the rig perform a backstretch just as well as a forward lay?”
Sure without anyone getting out of the cab or without leaving a hydrant man for a wet lay. Does you engine do that? One or two ldh lines just like your rigs right? We carry the same amount of hose as you right?
“What if you had to perform a reverse lay???”
Why would you? I have hydrants every 300 to 5200 feet just like everyone else, what are the advantages of a reverse lay. Make your hydraulic case, what is it I need to do with a reverse lay? How often would I be doing this? Make your case. Dual 5 inch lines in a forward lay off a 35 psi hydrant 300 feet is the same as you making a reverse lay and pumping a single 5 inch line at 185 psi the limit of your supply hose. (you do use 5 inch right?) I get 3233 gpm to my 2250 gpm hydrant rated pump. So tell me who is more likely to have a hose failure the 35 psi line or the 185? Sure we can do it but why?
“doesn't that take your ladder away from the building where it was to perform as a Ladder.”
Only if you are stupid enough to park it at the hydrant. Only if your FD only has one ladder. Now let’s get real, how many times have you raised the ladder at a structure fire this month? FDNY raises their ladder only 361 times out of 10,000 runs. So go ahead and tell me how busy your FD is. And how often would you have a reason to do a reverse lay. Don’t your bastardized officers realize that they are running a ladder and might want to use it? It takes people thinking to use any rig properly. Dual supply lines and there isn’t a need for a reverse lay, EVER!
“Does the driver have all the nessesary appliances and adapters easily accessible or have their numbers been reduced and buried in the back to make room for the extrication gear or fans?”
Of course he does, we spec’d our own apparatus to do what we want to do. Can we hook five supply lines into the rig? Yes. Do we have all the fittings to use the steamer or 2 ˝” connection, Yes . Do you? 99% of our fittings are on the discharge or suction or supply line you are going to use or directly below them. The supply bed goes 5 inch storz all the way down to 2 ˝ inch and even has a double male in a universal reverse lay hook ups and a 2 ˝ inch gate valve. That is both lines. So we can forward or reverse lay with the same end of the hose to anything in our state. All four LDH discharges flow at least 1000 gpm and two flow 2250 gpm and reduce down to 1 inch nst and every step along the way. Adapters and fitting have never been an issue even working with fire departments 240 and 300 miles from home. You see our dual rear 6 inch suctions go through all the thread sizes, so when the department with 5 inch hose with 4 ˝” threads wanted to lay us a line it coupled, when the department with 4 inch threads wanted us to pump a line we could do it. When the 4 inch with 3 ˝” couplings arrived we supplied it.
”Yes the rig has portable ladders just like a Truck but are there the same amount of options?”
Well the one I’m looking at has two 35 foot 2 flys, two 24 foot 2 flys, two 10 foot folding, two 16 foot roof and racks to hold a pair of 50 foot extensions if it is ever needed. You know the fire department can spec what they want or buy off the shelf, we spec’d what we wanted and didn’t take the minimum standard demo. Isn’t that your whole issue you bought a dear pierce or dear E-one, etc and paid the price, right? You get what you ask for in your bastardized operation.
“Did the specs call for a 3 section ladder vs. a two section?”
Heck no, two who wants a three? You didn’t buy threes did you?
“(for those who have never tried the difference is very noticable in raising and extending a 3-section vs. 2-section.)”
Our guys are smarter than that, 90 pounds difference.
“And just like the hose are they easily accessible”
On dual ladder racks that lower to 36 inches in height or pull off the rear from the same rack, access has never been an issue. After all you did take time to spec your rig to match your firefighters, didn’t you?
“or do you need to push hose and other tools on the back of the rig out of the way.”
Nah, that would be stupid, no one would spec a truck like that, we can deploy our jaws or cutter in 30 seconds and not hook up a thing, deploy two tripod lights and/or 5 cord reel flood lights in 10 seconds, all 18,000 watts of flood lights can be switched on from the cab with the vehicle in motion, draft in 15 seconds with one guy, put 9 guys in scba on arrival with in cab mounts and three more out of compartments, Air chisel in 15 seconds without hooking up a thing or any other air tool, sawzall in 15 seconds, place two 2000 gpm deck guns in service on the way in, in motion or CAFS streams, we have five saws ready to go, air bags deployable in 15 seconds all hooked up nothing to screw with, a 5000 gallon drop tank too set up for one man deploy, we can lift 42 feet vertically up to 400 feet from the rig with soft hose in the form of a preconnect line deployable in less than 2 minutes with just two firefighters, we can operate a deck gun off tank water through a 2 inch smooth bore tip with 250 feet of reach for 8 minutes, we can shuttle water with our quints through the 10 inch side dumps, we pack 12 salvage covers, a ton of cribbing, pack 45 feet of hard suction, have dual rear ldh suctions, two smoke ejectors, complete electronic accountability system, 12 pike poles, in cab thermal imagers, in cab computer preplans and audible directions to the fire call, etc. Can you do any of that with your ladder or engine? Nah, I doubt it. Like you said, you bastardized your operations so I’m sure your spec’s were just as bad.
“ Are they mounted so high to make removal difficult for all but the tallest of FFs? “
36 inches is lower than our shortest firefighters. Why would anyone mount them high?
”These are all important points but the biggest problem with the Quint concept has nothing to do with the rig itself.”
It doesn’t? Then why did you spend so much time on it? Does your engine carry 2000 gallons of water like our quint? Do you run CAFS? Have 220 gallons of foam in four tanks? Do you have two foam systems? Can you place four master streams in service in 3 minutes with your 4 man crew?
”You showed up and got your assignment right before you were expected to perform it.”
Gee, and you can’t think on your feet? You can’t work as a team? So your department was a joke and you blame the apparatus? I don’t get it. FDNY drives into buildings according to this months fire house going to non-sense calls so we should all not run engines right because some crews do stupid stuff, lie, never wear seat belts, etc?
“Problems...It created delays, you couldn't size up the building with your specific duties in mind until the last minute.”
You can’t adapt? Sounds like a personal problem not a quint problem. We show up and have been doing ladder and engine functions simultaneously for 8 years. It ain’t a big deal, I guess we have much better management and apparatus than you. Does your traditional ladder and engine company fall apart when asked to do something at the last minute also?
“The size up for VES the rear of a building is much different than forcible entry of the front, or stretching a handline or search of the 1st floor.”
Gosh that all sounds good and you are doing all of this how often? We are lucky to get maybe 32 guys on a structure fire first alarm response. NFPA sets the minimum standards for response and staffing at what 15, right? So it sounds you live in a world were only one truck responds and has to work alone, we don’t if we did we can do all of those things with one rig instantly on arrival. So the front guy can’t figure out how to do the back guys job? Everything sounds like a lack of training issue and quints or ladders shouldn’t make any difference if you have untrained people
”After you received your assignment the officer told the members what tools to take or everyone took whatever they wanted.”
So you work for a free lance fire department, wonderful and what does that have to do with quints? If you operate your engines and trucks that way you’ll have the same lousy results! So doing whatever you want sounds fun!
“Either way it was a half-*** way of attacking a fire. It was like a pick-up football game you showed up and the officer handed out assignments like a quarterback giving out passing routes for recievers. Not very professional!”
Ok so you’ve made it clear you work for a half assed fire department that is not very professional, so you probably shouldn’t be giving quint advice on a forums board, because you have made it quite clear you haven’t a clue how to run or operate on a fire ground or spec a truck.
”And the biggest issue of all is operational proficiency. I tried for years to maintain competencies in all skills Engine and Truck alike. What I found it is very difficult to do this.”
Not all FD’s have that problem, certainly not an issue here. So you can’t figure out how to do tow jobs, really one job, that of a firefighter. You’ve made that clear over and over again.
“Most depts that have special operations have those highly motivated and skilled members on a Rescue, Squad or whatever you call it. Most guys are good at Engine operations and the Truck skills fall by the wayside.”
Most huh? Oh bull, only if you allow it. There are no requirements or skills to maintain to keep membership or employment? You get what you put into the job, no expectations you get the end result, certainly not a quint issue.
”And as for your suggestion that the Engine guys grab the Truck tools off the Quint and go to work...how often do the Eng guys train in the use of the tools?”
The issue is this, if that is how you operate why aren’t you training for it? Every rig in my department is outfitted exactly alike, I guess we’ve been thinking about how to do the job professionally too long. The free lance approach you speak of didn’t work well in Worchester, Lake Worth, Houston, or any of the high profile LODD departments, we choose not to use it hear, but if you are happy with it and want blame your quints, that is cool. So you don’t train either, greaaaaaat!
“How often do they practice Searching?”
No more than once a week, all rigs are imager equipped and all buildings are pre-planned. What do you think is the right amount tice a career to match the number of times in a career you actually find a victim?
We only own four types, they are all the same. Rarely need them actually. Same goes for the big stick. We know where to park and where and when to throw a ladder. Don’t you? Come on, you aren’t really telling us you don’t know how to throw a ladder are you?
“Use of the Aerial?”
I’m sure our ladder goes up on 80% of our calls because we make it a habit even on auto accidents to use it as a light tower, because it has 6500 watts of flood light on the end, we commonly drop the riggers and place the ladder even when no fire is visible. When you have the street on the customers request you might as well take the opportunity to train.
“ Forcible Entry??”
We we unconventional tools that will open everything so we have no entry issues.
“They don't check the tools out on a daily basis,”
Actually we do, with every rig being the same what is the big deal? Why don’t you?
“they don't regualarly operate as a Truck at a fire”
So how many fires are you, per shift, per station running a year. You know total number of calls divided by X number of stations, divided by days you are actually on duty equals what? How many of those did the ladder go up and required a heavy smoke search? Now tell us that you have so much fire activity that you are relying on it alone for sharp ladder skills or engine skills. We need a good laugh. FDNY’s numbers are: 6.5 fires not structure fires per station per month. They are 4 times busier than the next major metro FD. Most fires are put out with water not ladders, right?
“ and this WILL negatively affect operations and possibly lead to increased injuries and maybe even deaths. “
Nah, train the way you play, get off you *** and do your job, stay sharp, equip for the job at hand and practice. Care to tell us where all these deaths are occuring?
”Truck operations are much too important to delegate them to some random Engine company that may or may not be proficent in operating as one. “
If the firefighters are not proficient, maybe they shouldn’t be firefighters. If that were true fires wouldn’t go out in all the departments that do truck operations with engines because they don’t own ladders. What department on earth has more ladders or the same number as engines? NONE So do the engines always wait for the ladder to vent, and force entry? How many fires really require entry? How many really require vertical ventilation? Thousands of fires are fought daily without either. Horizontal ventilation by far during attack out numbers vertical. What percentage f your fires are you searching? What percentage ever find a victim? Compare that with the number of times your search creates the only possible life hazard. Benefit and risk…seems out of wack.
”It should be important to realize that a consistant group of members deticated to Truck skills is much more preferable than to some supposed flexibility gained by use of Quints.”
Oh give it a rest, dedicated? It is their job to be competent in all basic firefighter skills. A consistent group huh? You mean, no one is ever filling in for a guy on vacation, sick leave etc? All guys in the FD are the same? Yeah right, what consistency? Why would they be dedicated to anything if they couldn’t remember and enhance what they learned as a rookie to do the whole job well?
“There is NO argument that makes sense for replacing Engines/Trucks with fewer Quints and fewer members.”
None huh, would it be better to simply get rid of the people, engines and ladders needed to balance the budget and not offer more capable apparatus like is going on in many cities? Certainly there aren’t any crews who can figure out how to use a quint according to you!
“The only thing that will result is fewer members on scene and those that do arrive will take longer to arrive.”
The only thing huh? If you are hanging out of a window, do you want a ladder or a pumper? Offering a swiss army knife is preferable to a buck knife. So where are all of these departments with quints that are layingoff guys, closing stations and getting rid of companies that out number departments without quints that are laying off guys and closing stations and companies? Want to post some names?
“And since you needed to take more companies to get the same compliment of personell more areas of your city are now left without protection. “
And how many fires are going on at one time in your town? How many times a year are there multiple working fires simultaneously? 3600 people die in fires a year a whopping 6 per month per state, not a real big problem is it really, 60% of those because they don’t have a detector or a working one. Fix that and only 1440 die a year.
”I don't see how anyone but the bean counters would like this!!”
I think our bean counters were happy with our $470,000 purchase. We can certainly do more faster than anything you run.
If 70% of the fire services business is EMS, and very little is firefighting shouldn’t the resources devoted be devoted to the real needs as well?
There is nothing wrong with the apparatus called a quint. There is everything wrong with the ways you said you operate. No fire department on earth is trying to do both jobs truck and engine at the same time with a single crew, so that argument doesn’t fly. There are departments that double staff their quints and do both.
Only the bean counter cares? How about this, two engines and a ladder that is three operators and a crew of 9 assuming staffing of 4 but nationally the 400 largest FD’s staff with just 3.
If all there EO’s stay with their rig you have a crew of 9 to work with. Same task with two quints each with 6 gives a working crew of 10. Putting a quint in every station gives more flexibility than a traditional engine ladder mix. Say you place a car in each station and have two members run ems while four stay in service with a quint. You can still be a ladder or an engine, you aren’t running a 400K rig on a bandaid call. The sedan can meet the Quint on scene or another sedan can to get the staffing back to 6. You can be like Jersey city and do nothing special and watch your staffing drop 50% over 15 years or at least have apparatus that can address a new and better approach than watching rigs and stations close and people loose their jobs. You are far better with fewer stations and adequately staff multi-purpose apparatus and working smoke detectors than a bunch of light staffed rigs with tight spacing in conventional roles.
Every issue you’ve brought up are people and training issues not quint issues.
Feel free to get real specific on what you can’t do with a quint or what you can’t do as a firefighter, and seeing as how all these guys on the board agree lets see if we can have a meaningful debate on real quint issues.
05-28-2003, 12:58 AM #2
- Join Date
- Jun 2002
- Glenn Dale Md, Heart of the P.G. County Fire Belt....
And, pray tell, what is the point here?....... Stay Safe....Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
In memory of
Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006
IACOJ Budget Analyst
I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.
05-28-2003, 09:29 AM #3
- Join Date
- Feb 2003
maybe you should open up a design shop for Quints
we have a factory one that works well for us we run it like an engine mostly but it has a 105' arial on itFireSarge
"Any man willing to die in my place is my brother. Any man willing to turn and run is my enemy. Which will you be?"
05-28-2003, 05:20 PM #4CaptainGonzoFirehouse.com Guest
Re: Huh???Originally posted by hwoods
And, pray tell, what is the point here?....... Stay Safe....
I think that imtxFF44 is trying to say "I like quints". What amazes me is that he took over 1000 words just to say that!
05-28-2003, 06:16 PM #5
- Join Date
- Sep 2001
- S.E. Idaho
That post is longer then most apparatus!!!
I'd like to see a picture of this 2000 gallon super-pumper-dumper-tanker-stomper-quint.
I'd also like to know what department it works for?
Last edited by mark440; 05-28-2003 at 06:53 PM.FTM-PTB-RFB-EGH
05-28-2003, 07:31 PM #6
- Join Date
- Dec 2001
Mark, thats like calling out the devil!
05-28-2003, 07:55 PM #7
- Join Date
- Sep 2001
- S.E. Idaho
So much big talk, so many slams, such a duragatory post, yet.... how anonymous of a poster. Puzzling isn't it...
And, what would the weight of this super-pumper-tanker-equipment hauling-quint be? Anyone want to quess?
05-28-2003, 09:08 PM #8
- Join Date
- Feb 2000
- Chesapeake Bay
05-29-2003, 12:16 AM #9
That "Crazy Larry"
Man I sure did miss your posts. WELCOME BACK !
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