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    Angry Why the 1 3/4 and fog nozzle for standpipe operations?

    So, what we have in today’s “safety first” fire service is the widespread use of 1 ¾ hose with fog nozzles during standpipe operations. This is standard practice for many big and small departments around the country. What are the reasons behind the use of the small line and the fog nozzle for standpipe operations when the 2 ½ and the smooth bore nozzle are available?

    There are guys getting screamed at because their chin straps aren’t buckled, but there is no screaming when they connect to the standpipe with a small line and a high-pressure nozzle with a million moving parts. This is the result of a misguided “safety” movement. The emphasis on safety is huge now, but what’s the point if the focus is in the wrong areas? The “safety” movement is supposed to keep guys from dying…but it doesn’t. We still lose as many guys as we used to. This is because, when it comes to safety, we focus on the wrong things.
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    Because in "today's fire service" a higher priority is placed on looking professional rather than actually being a professional. Because of this type of mentality a lot of potentially dangerous problems are allowed to happen because we simply don't know better. How many times have you heard a chief say that we only do fires 7-10% of the time? This is why we have to justify the existence of everything else we do. Unfortunately, even though the fire incident rate is down, and may continue it's downward spiral, we're still killing off over 100 firefighters a year. Yet that fact is almost ignored by the pro-look crowd.
    Last edited by BLACKSHEEP1; 06-02-2003 at 03:10 PM.

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    Very good points made here. I agree with the point about the smooth bore nozzle. We do use 1 3/4 hose though.

    All of our high rise structures are sprinklered, and the smooth bore and 1 3/4 combination has worked well for us. We do have larger lines available as "second in".
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    I agree 100% with the 2.5" line being used for standpipe operations. Let's look at one example:
    First anything could happen to a standpipe or sprinkler system, Murphy's law would put the fire on the one day that the building firepump is being worked on, so I wouldn't count on it. If it works you won't need any hose but it is a moot point.
    I think we can all agree that in a highrise office with the open floor space needs a 2.5" line. If you show up and anything is showing, by the time you get up there you will have a much bigger fire and what could have been a 1.75" fire is now too big to control.
    Highrise office fire are far less frequent then a residential fire.
    Most of us getaway with using a 1.75" for our house fires. If we show up and one or two rooms are going it isn't much of a problem.
    Now after we show up we have to go up to it and it takes 10 minutes the fire has grown to the point where it isn't an easily makable fire. Even a small appartment could be trouble, say 25X25 is going. it requires 200 + gpm to extinguish. Now add a lack of ventilation and some strong winds and your not going to make it with the one line. Sure you can use a second line, but the reach won't be there. and one big line is much faster to deploy then two smaller ones.

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    I agree with ADSN. I still think it is OK to have the first in crew take up a 1 3/4 hose depending on the structure and your companies knowledge of it.

    The problem is, a lot of departments have become complacent. Some will argue that the weight and difficulty in handling 2 1/2 inch hose makes it a poor choice for high rise operations. Bulls**t. It is a training issue. Train with the big hose and you will be able to operate with it much more effectivley.
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    Our High Rise packs are 100' of 2.5 with a Combo nozzle.On a few stand pipe systems I have noticed a 2.5" cap with a 1.5" fitting.
    Last edited by dfdex1; 06-02-2003 at 11:45 AM.

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    Ours are 150 ft of lightweight synthetic with an 1-1/4 smoothbore on it. The other end has an angle fitting with a gauge that fits the standpipe connection, this way you have some control over any excess pressures, if the pressure is not enough, then we add smaller tips to the nozzle to get where we need to be. I would be extremely leary of having a fog on a hi-rise line that the tip cannot be removed. I've seen all kinds of trash fire out of the end of our s/b nozzles that would clog up a fog. If you can't clear that tip, you can really screw yourself over. As far as using a 1-1/2 hose cabinet, in my opinion,and with the friction losses involved with that, you might as well not have a standpipe, start the stretch up the stairwell.

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    What do the big citys use for their high rise packs?

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    WSFD uses 100' of 1 3/4" hose with a combo nozzle with a pistol grip. It is carried in one of the high-rise sholder slings.
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    1.75" line and a fog tip as the first line off a standpipe is simply criminal!
    Any department who advocates it or has it as a written SOP would be criminally negligent in the event of a death or serious injury after fire operations were underway.

    This is not a fog vs. solid opinion. The initial line from a standpipe must be effective in the event the system cannot be augmented by the pumper. This being the case, maximum line size and a smooth bore nozzle will minimize friction loss in an un-supplied system.

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    1.75" line and a fog tip as the first line off a standpipe is simply criminal!
    Any department who advocates it or has it as a written SOP would be criminally negligent in the event of a death or serious injury after fire operations were underway.
    Where does it state that in the NFPA standards?

    The initial line from a standpipe must be effective in the event the system cannot be augmented by the pumper.
    What if your SOP's/ROG'S state you cannot make an interior attack unless the standpipe system is supplied/augmented by an engine?
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
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    How about One Meridian Plaza http://www.nfpa.org/PDF/MeridianPlaza.PDF?src=nfpa
    Or the Interstate Bank Building Fire Los Angeles http://www.firetactics.com/Interstate.pdf

    In both fires low water pressure made the 1.75" lines and fog nozzles worthless. In LA they fixed the problem and the 1.75 and 2.5" were able to do something. One Meridian still stands empty. What more do you need?

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    Devil's Advocate, again;
    LA:
    The report states the initial attack lines where 2", and all sizes where used during the interior attack-1 3/4", 2" and 2 1/2". Initial reports indicated low water pressure due to no fire pumps running or engine pressure on the system. Initially, static pressure was all that was available. Even a smooth bore needs some pressure to work. System was pressurized shortly by both the firepumps and engines.

    Meridian Plaza:
    Again, inadequate pressure due to standpipe equipment failure/mis-adjusted pressure reducing valves. This fire was extinguished by automatic sprinklers on the 13th floor, not firefighters with handlines and smooth bores. Again the system was augmented by fire department engines. If memory serves, there was only 30psi available on the standpipe discharges. Is that adequate for a smooth bore? And would you mount an interior attack with that kind of pressure?

    I edit my post here to state that I am NOT anti-smoothbore. If in doubt, do a search and you will see that I have posted many times in favor of their use. Do we have smooth bores on our highrise packs, no. Should we have one available, absolutely with-out a doubt. The sooner the better.
    Last edited by SPFDRum; 06-02-2003 at 10:32 PM.
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    Excellent question stugats.

    Blacksheep makes a point that I will agree with. Most Chiefs are more woried about looking good rather than preparing for the rare but inevitible high-rise job.

    There are many factors however that combine to create this grossly unsafe situation in many FDs. Habbit, Ignorance & Denial.
    Despite evidence and history that show use of 1 3/4 handlines with fog tips should not be used in Hi-Rise Ops many choose to ignore these facts and ensure that there will be more widows and fatherless children.

    Habbit....Most Depts have a predominance of Private Dwellings and many fires in them and few highrises with fewer fires. The habit for these depts is to pull the crosslay (or whatever you call it) and go to work in a two or three story dwelling. The fires they face daily seem to go out fine with 1 3/4 so why bother changing, especially when it involves lots of stairs(assuming you are smart enough to avoid the use of the elevators when it is on lower floors). Who wants to carry 2 1/2 to the upper floors?!?!

    Ignorance....Many don't realize or understand design issues or challenges that are unique to Standpipe Ops. Few know of NFPA 14 and that it specificly states that you SHOULD NOT use a fog nozzle off Standpipes or that most Standpipes were designed with Hydraulic calculations assuming the FD would be using 2 1/2" Hose. A recent article from Chief Dave McGrail of the Denver FD at www.firenuggets.com demonstrates the unpredicable condtions when a picture of a standpipe outlet from a upper floor of a Denver Hi-Rise was alsmost completly occulded from rust, scale and Debris.

    Denial....I would wager that most depts out there that have High-Rises, have SOPs for High-Rise Ops that are unrealistic or simply inadequate.(If they have any at all) Many depts assume they'll wing it. And attack it just like every other fire. The only problem is that there is a distinct likelyhood they will end up with results that mirror those in Houston, Philly and Florida(I can't remember the city but it happened recently.) Civilians Die, Firemen Die and the Fire Service looks like incompetant fools because some Chiefs thought it wouldn't happen to them.

    I have a question for the brother that stated policy prevents him from using standpipes without augmenting. You Show up a a highrise multiple dwelling in your district at 0300. There is a fire on the 7th Floor and inaccesible to ladders. The building contains mostly elderly retirees. There is a strong Northwind blowing into the fire appartment. Oh and by the way the elderly person who accidently started the fire while leaving the apartment triped and droped the walker in doorway leaving the hallway and all other residents exposed to the Blast furnace that has been created. You make your way up the stairs to the 6th floor and begin to hook up. The Truckies tell you that they can't make the hallway to search as they have heavy fire conditions preventing them from reaching the what are now multiple reports of trapped occupants in adjacent appartments...

    ...Just then the Apparatus Operator of the Engine radios to tell you that he can't augment the siamese as one is cloged and the other has damaged threads...he will be signifigantly delayed as he now must augment via the first floor outlet.

    Which comes to my question are you going to have a copy of that policy to show the occupants who are awating their rescue by you?
    Or their families at the victims' funerals? "It says right here I can't operate off a standpipe untill it is augmented!" Do you just give up? What if the system can't be augmented because there are PRVs on the outlets and can't be removed?

    Come on Bro, the book is a good thing but a policy such as this is about as unrealistic as they come. We are talking about real world problems that require real world soultions, a policy such as this does little to nothing to fix the problem. Would you agree?

    And as far as criminal I couldn't say...but in a civil liabilty case it wouldn't be that hard with the documented history on the subject showing that it would be forseable that deaths would result from the use of 1 3/4 with fog tips. There are plenty of Documents from NFPA and NIOSH on that subject.

    For those who are really interested in learing about this subject: Go to www.firenuggets.com and Subscribe for the ridiculously low rate of $9.95 for a whole year. There are many excellent articles by nationaly recongnized experts in the Field. Specifically Read all the artilces from Dave McGrail (Dec02-Jan03--Standpipes and Nozzles) and read the NIOSH reports http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/firehome.html about all fires but the High-rise Fires especially. OR scroll through the technical reports of the US Fire Admin for the same: http://www.usfa.fema.gov/application...s/techreps.cfm

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 06-02-2003 at 11:27 PM.

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    Good points, all. We did some tests here that indicated it would take about 20 minutes to geta line in operation on a hi-rise fire. That is probably the national average, however some of our chiefs were sort of in denial over this until we used several different engine companies to prove the point. It really does take 20 minutes, and you had better be prepared to start the attack off of whatever that fire pump will give you. The fire dept doesn't "pump" the system, (in most cases), in fact most fire departments, if you do the math may not be able to provide an adequate flow unless a short relay set up is used to build adequate pressure. This eats up staffing. The fire department pumpers are to supplement the building system, the building system should be doing all of the work, if the engine company over pumps the bldg system, you may find the system shutting down. For this reason, your depts prevention division needs to have it's ducks in a row. We recently had a fire in this area where not only did the standpipe not function, but the closest hydrant didn't either. The fire resulted in civilian death, and serious firfighter injuries. Of course, everyone tried to hang the I.C., and perhaps he did make some mistakes, but you tell me, in the real world, how many engine companies do you think it would take to overcome those problems? And what part did their prevention division play in that disaster?, especially if there was a recent inspection? In my opinion, you need gpm's and at potentially low pressures, until anyone comes up with a fog that will do that(I'm not discussing the tactics here, just the flow rate) you have to use the smooth bore.

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    Originally posted by ADSNWFLD
    How about One Meridian Plaza http://www.nfpa.org/PDF/MeridianPlaza.PDF?src=nfpa
    Or the Interstate Bank Building Fire Los Angeles http://www.firetactics.com/Interstate.pdf

    In both fires low water pressure made the 1.75" lines and fog nozzles worthless. In LA they fixed the problem and the 1.75 and 2.5" were able to do something. One Meridian still stands empty. What more do you need?

    One Meridian Plaza in Philly was taken down a few years a go. The last time I was working in center city the lot was being used as a parking lot, that was a few years a go. We use 1 3/4 with a Sb nozzle for our hose pack because 1 our chief is too cheap to buy the right stuff and 2 our one mid rise building only has 1 1/2 connections. There are 2 1/2 outlets that are reduced down to 1 1/2. The connections are at the end of the hallways in the hose cabinets and you can not get the reducer off with out smashing the hose cabinet and taking a sledge to the wall. What we are planning on doing is breaking the first 100 off of the 2 1/2 preconnect and pulling the 300 3" line that has a water thief on it (single stack line in 3 100" carries) this ha been praticed. It is only a 6 story building and is sprinklered only in the common places (our chief again)

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    We have heard why the 2 1/2 and smooth bore nozzle are the way to go for standpipe operations...but we haven't heard one good reason why a small line with a fog nozzle should be used. That's because there aren't any good reasons, yet so many departments go this route...despite the well documented dangers and potential for disaster.

    ...misguided safety reform...reminds me of 2 in/2 out...
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    Talking Well, we do it......

    Well, My lightbar has...... Oops, Flashbacks. Sorry about that. We use 2" line, 100 Ft. with a breakaway nozzle w/ combination tip. Some older and wiser folks have a 1" tip in their turnout coat pocket. I would point out that we have not had a problem with lines being overpowered by the fire. (yet) On the subject of 2.5 hose, we haven't had any for years. We use 5",4", and 3" for supply line, and 2", 1.5", for Attack lines, and 1" for Grass/Brush/Woods fires ONLY. Stay Safe....
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    ..."we haven't had any problems" (re 1 3/4 and fog nozzle)

    Any of the departments that suffered major disasters as a result of using the 1 3/4 line and fog nozzle for standpipe operations were able to make the statement above for all of their standpipe operations...up until the major disaster occured.
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    FINALLY!!! A thread with some meat and potatoes to it! OK, here goes. I went to the Providence Firefighter's Safety and Survival annual seminar in May. Always a good conference, and I really pick up many things from it, both from the speakers, and the hands on classes that are offered. This year, I sat in on a lecture givin by Battalion Chief Jerry Tracy of F.D.N.Y. The topic was "Back to Basics", and it was just that. We in the fire service are getting away from this type of training as we continue to specialize and diversify. Firefighters don't seem to use the tools of the trade as much as we used to, and that can be both good and bad. Less fires mean less losses from fires, but this also equates to less experienced firefighters. Chief Tracy's message was excellent. Be prepared every time you go out the door, because you never know when things are going to go bad. For my hands-on class the following day, I took a class on basic engine company operations. Being a relatively new Lt., a year and a half, and coming from the ladder company in our job, I saw this a a good class to take to brush up on my skills. The class consisted of stretching lines, standpipe ops, and so on. Very rudimentary, but the instructors, all Providence, R.I. firefighters, were excellent. As a bonus, Chief Tracy made an unscheduled appeareance at the training site, and did a little demonstration. We set up 200 feet of 1-3/4 inch lnch line with an automatic nozzle (manufacturer omitted) with a dual pressure switch. Chief Tracy had the pump operator provide a pump discharge pressure of 40 p.s.i. to simulate relatively low pressure off a standpipe. The nozzle was set in it's normal mode. As you can guess, the stream was very poor. Next we set the pressure switch to the low pressure "emergency" mode. What happened was rather eye-opening, to say the least. The stream got even worse! Not something I would want to be inside a long hallway with, that's for sure. The next demonstration was 200 feet of 2-1/2 with the same pump discharge pressure, 40 p.s.i. The nozzle was a 2-1/2 smooth bore with I believe an 1-1/8 tip. At work we use a 2-1/2 with an 1-1/4 tip, which gives 325 g.p.m. at 50 p.s.i. nozzle pressure. Chief Tracy stated that the nozzle we were using for the demonstration would deliver 250 g.p.m. or therabouts at proper nozzle pressure. Anyway, to get to the point of this whole dissertation. The stream from a 200 foot 2-1/2 with an 1-1/8 tip smooth bore nozzle, even at only 40 p.s.i. pump discharge pressure, gave a workable stream without a hell of a lot of nozzle reaction. The reason? Less friction loss in the bigger hose combined with a smooth bore allowed a workable stream, whereas the smaller hose coupled with the higher friction loss and a fog nozzle combined to produce a poor stream. For me seeing was believing. I can't wait to try this on the drill ground at work, and hope to open some eyes down my way. Now, fog nozzles with the proper nozzle pressure and gallonage are a useful resource, no doubt. Can there be problems at a fire? No, not ever, right? In the case of the bigger hose, if there is a problem with the standpipe pressure, i.e. a Meridian Plaza, then I want the most powerful weapon I can bring with me. The only drawbacks I see is diffuculty advancing a charged line with limited manpower, and in a low pressure situation, you would really have to be aware of kinks, further restricting the flow. As far as advancing a charged 2-1/2, proper layout up the stairs prior to entering a hallway would be critical. One other thing Chief Tracy said, which really makes sense. If there is any doubt, always take the bigger hose with a smooth bore, as you can kick the snot out of the fire, then reduce to a smaller line for mop up. In other words, you can always make a big line smaller, but never the opposite. Anyways, a little food for thought. Your questions and comments are welcome.
    Last edited by lieutleroy140; 06-04-2003 at 08:01 PM.
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    OK choad33 My mistake, I was under the impression that the building hasn't come down yet, The last time I was in Phily Meridian was occupied, but that isn't the point.
    "you can always make a big line smaller, but never the opposite" great statement, if you start out going for the big flow and the system can't support it you can always go with a smaller tip. The fog, and especially an automatic, just won't do it for you. Even the low pressure fogs don't seem to work as well as the sb in this application. The other thing I like about a smooth bore in this setting is that if you don't have the water it is obvious. A lot of fog nozzles will give you a good looking stream but with no punch.

    If you are having problems with people understanding the need for the bigger line set up a drill. Run the line at 50 at the discharge and see what set up works best for you. Practice with the 2.5" if you use it you will find that two people can handle it and it is a great tool.

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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by ADSNWFLD
    [B]OK choad33 My mistake, I was under the impression that the building hasn't come down yet,

    I Will find out for sure in 12 hours I have got to work in center city again I have not been down there in over a year. We would love to have dedicated 2.5" hose packs on the trucks but the guy (chief) with the money has the say. He will not even buy color coded hose or hose with NST threads!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. Yes it is 2003 and we still use the private hose thread from 1890, great fun when mutual aid tries to hook up to our hydrants or the standpipe connection. Old brass 2.5" nozzle from 1952 broke so he has it brazed. We do use the 1 3/4 hose packs from time to time off of a water thief for fires in alleys and for the long setbacks we have in the old part of town. They work well for the fires that they physical are able to fight, room and content fires in small structures.

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    Shortsighted designers made this decision for us. In three of our six new 5-6 storey condo-hotel buildings, they only installed 1 1/2" standpipe connections. The newest three have 2 1/2" connections. Much like our hydrants (they installed the first few with 4" pumper ports, and the rest with 6" PP's), they only upgraded after we hounded the design group endlessly.

    We now use 1 3/4" with fog nozzles (no Smoothbores's on our truck yet). But at least at only 6 stories (and sprinklered), pressure is not a big issue.

    I feel for you guys with 10+ storeys. Quads of Steel eh!!
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