1. #1
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    Arrow OK now what..........

    Your on the nozzle in a interior operation and your trying to put out a stubborn fire with a 1 3/4" in a heavy timber style warehouse full of different cargo there is another interior crew working but they are in a different part of the builing. The fire has spread to mattres's behind you and the fire takes control of the area the exit is blocked from falling burning mattreses. Your partner suddenly drops down to the floor and your low air alarm goes off,the fire is spreading........Now what?


    Good luck
    -dfd


    P.S Everyone but captstanm1 can answer in this. LOL JK Capt.

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    Check whats wrong with your partner, if hes not responding call in a mayday and hope someone gets there asap???
    I havent failed, I've found 10,000 ways that don't work.

    - Thomas Edison

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    Okay here is my attempt...

    Why are you in a heavy timber warehouse with a 1 3/4" line? I would suggest that a minimum in that circumstance would be a 2 1/2" line flowing at least 250 gpm. If there is any volume of fire at all the 1 3/4" line should be left on the rig. And by your limited description I would assume there is heavy fire.

    Your low air alarm sounding should not come as a surprise to you. You should be monitoring your air so you know how much air it took you to get to where you are so you can allow for roughly that much to get back out.

    But going with your scenario, if it is an older multi-stroy warehouse there are usually many large windows on most sides of the building. By doing my initial quick look before I went in I would have an idea where alternative escape routes are located. I would have of course activated mine and my partners PASS alarms and used my radio to call a mayday. Then I would try to locate one of those windows and work towards it with my partner.

    But I have questions for you. How far from the initial exit am I on this line? Is the fire of such great magnitude that I can't extinguish it with the hoseline I have? Have the mattresses collapsed and are now physically blocking my retreat?

    This seems like a bad situation from the get go.

    FyredUp

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    How far from the initial exit am I on this line? Is the fire of such great magnitude that I can't extinguish it with the hoseline I have? Have the mattresses collapsed and are now physically blocking my retreat?
    Your a 150' in and cant see the exit.
    The fire has gone from a small contained fire and quickly spread and is just about to go into the free burning phase.
    You dont have the man power for a 2.5".
    Yes a they are blocking your exit and are on fire.

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    Okay then we aren't going back the way we came. So...what I said above applies.

    As far as not having enough people to run a 2 1/2" line...is this a 2 man hose team? If so, I can and have stretched a 2 1/2" line dry to the point of attack with 2 FF's and fought fire. So lack of manpower is not a legitimate excuse for getting killed because you don't have enough fire extinguishing power. If the need for a 2 1/2" line presents itself a 1 3/4" line will not supply enough water to put out the fire. So either stretch it dry to the point of attack and then charge it or wait for the next engine.

    You did say another company was working at the fire, why not have the 2 work together and pull the right sized line right away?

    Personally, I would not use my FF's the way you do in your scenario. I would take my 2 - 3 person companies and combine them to have at least 3 on the line and go for it with the big water right away.

    The warehouse with multiple types of stowage is a death trap. Inadequate sized hoselines and poor tactics, as well as being unaware of your own air supply only exacerbate the situation.

    FyredUp

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    I think 2.5" is great but I would not even venture to use it unless I had at least 4 people on it. But anyway your in the building now what do you do ? Oh and this was built after electric lights so you dont got those big windows your talking about. There not working together cause there are in two very different parts on the building.

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    "Oh and this was built after electric lights so you dont got those big windows"

    Then as I stated earlier, I would not be in this situation because your tactics are faulty. I would not split crews going into a fire this size and equip them with an inadequate fire stream. I also wnat to know how thw fire got behind them? Did they pass by the fire on the way in?

    The only thing this crew can do is call for a mayday and activate their pass alarms. Low air and a downed firefighter with the only escape blocked...perhaps if a RIT team is in place a wall breach near the interior crew with a large enough crew and an adequate firestream is the answer. But with the previous faulty tactics I think this would probably not be the case.

    I would like to know what you think the answer is...

    By the way, tell me where you plan to ever have enough FF's on a rig to have 4 people on a 2 1/2" line without involving 2 companies? Maybe FDNY or another large city. But in the real world most FD's run with 3 on an engine, officer, MPO and FF...some may have a second FF. By the way, proper advancement of a 2 1/2" line dry with allowances for proper placement of extra hose, and charging it only once at the point of attack, can make advancement a do-able, although not easy thing. Practice, practice, practice...as well as knowing that the 1 3/4" line is not always the right hose even if it is the easiest to manuever.

    FyredUp
    Last edited by FyredUp; 06-24-2003 at 05:00 PM.

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    I agree with you FyredUp. You can stretch and operate a 2 1/2" line with two people. Been there and done that.

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    dfdex1...

    I am still wondering how you would have handled this scenario you painted.

    FyredUp

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    If this is a "stubborn" fire then I would sure hope that you have more then two companies operating. As far as FyredUps comments go I am in agreement. We do not have 2 1/2 inch hose but we surely would have gone 2" or even our blitzfires to get the flow and reach to eliminate guys being inside. IC should have seen the danger of the combination of a stubborn fire you couldn't knock down,fire in multiple locations in the structure,low manpower at hand, low flows and reach of streams and called for help and pulled people outside. Sad this "scenario" had to occur.

    As far as my partner, I second the young lady from Lee FDs answers. Assess situation,PASS, radio for help, disentangle and defend yourselves with your line.

    So what is your answer to this dilemma DFDEX1?
    Proud to be an American, Union Firefighter!

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    I would of done what FRD45 said.

    I dont have a "answer"(I have a good idea),but some people here always(none of you) talk about what they would do when "fhit hits the san". I was just curious and wanted different opinions on what different people would do.Like most of my "what ifs" im just trying to get your gears turning to get different answers and trying to get over these things like who's pager is cooler,who's hazard lights flash faster or how else can I make my dept. and I look even more like dogans etc..

    Dunno I guess I will stop doing it now.

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    dfdex1...

    I don't think myself or anyone who responded said to stop posting scenarios. What I said from the beginning was that your tactics were faulty and I would not have gotten into the situation you described due to lack of fire flow. The downed firefighter and low air are realistic. 1 3/4 inch handlines in a major warehouse with multiple types of cargo for a working fire is just plain dumb.

    Like FiRsqDvr my volly FD uses 2 inch hose. the nozzle we use is a 200 gpm at 75 psi break a part combo nozzle with a 1 1/4 inch smoothbore slug. We can flow from 160 gpm to 325 gpm with that line. 2 guys can and usually do move that line. It flows the same as a 2 1/2" line with just more engine pressure needed to make up for additional friction loss.

    Don't be so sensitive...being asked what you would do is not criticizing the concept of scenarios. It was more than anything stating that those of us who have been doing this for a while wouldn't have done it the way you set this up.

    FyredUp
    Last edited by FyredUp; 07-05-2003 at 04:27 PM.

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