Thread: FDNY vs. NYPD

  1. #1
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    Default FDNY vs. NYPD

    This idiotic "rivalry" between the fire fighters and cops in NYC has got to end. Someone is going to get hurt and get hurt bad unless some cooler heads prevail.

    CHIMNEY-CHUMP CLASH

    By BRIGITTE STELZER, ADAM MILLER and JAMIE SCHRAM

    June 28, 2003 -- A would-be burglar stuck in the chimney of a Queens restaurant yesterday sparked a battle of the badges that Mayor Bloomberg tried to douse by bringing in top cop Ray Kelly and his FDNY counterpart for an emergency meeting.
    Firefighter John Gaine, 40, was arrested for obstructing governmental administration after entering a crime scene during a police search for additional burglary suspects at Luigi Italian Cuisine restaurant at 84-22 37th Ave. in Jackson Heights, cops said.

    Gaine a former cop booted from the NYPD in 1985 after being involved in a melee following a Yankee game suffered a knee injury when he was shoved to the ground during a scuffle with a police officer.

    The incident began when cops and firefighters were called to the restaurant just before 3 a.m.

    An investigation determined that William Quinga, 22, was trying to burglarize the restaurant when he became lodged in the chimney.

    But Gaine, a 15-year veteran assigned to Rescue Co. 4, and other Bravest thought they were responding to a rescue.

    Gaine entered the eatery on the orders of his captain, fire sources said.

    Inside, he was stopped by a beefy cop who ordered him to leave, saying it was a crime scene.

    The pair exchanged some heated words before the cop shoved Gaine, the firefighter said.

    "It was one push, and I fell to the ground and twisted my knee," Gaine, supporting himself with crutches, told The Post.

    "I didn't do anything wrong. We got a call to respond. We thought it was a rescue and that someone was injured."

    Emergency workers had to break through a wall to remove Quinga, who was charged with burglary and criminal trespassing after being treated at Elmhurst Hospital.

    The Police and Fire departments said they were investigating.

    __________________________________________________ _______

    You probably are thinking, "Here he goes, sticking up for the cops again!" Nope. Sounds like the cop was clearly wrong in this instance. But there is a much bigger issue here. It is two-fold.

    1. The duplication of services between the cops and the FD is absurd. Cops should be cops and fire fighters should be fire fighters. If the lines cross in the heat of an emergency, that is one thing. But the cops have rescue, the FD has rescue. The cops have SCUBA, the FD has SCUBA. The cops do hazmat, the FD does hazmat. And so on.

    2. There is absolutely NO communication between the cops and FF at jobs. That responding co. should have been told that the job was a crime scene (if it was) and to stage somewhere until the scene was secure. The FF may have been a jerk. The cop may have been a jerk. But their bosees should have been communicating so it didn't escalate to that point.

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    I am in full agreement George. While many towns and cities across our country have similar situations between PD and FD....The Big Apple seems to set the standard for the "absurd."

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    George... I could never understand the duplication of services in NYC, either.

    In my community, PD and FD work well together. We do have our "moments" at times, but who doesn't?

    A lot of the cops I know wanted to be firefighters, but they have this thing about heights....
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    Our cops are great. We've always worked well together, even in arson investigations. It makes everybody's job a whole lot easier without creating any more drama than there already is.
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    I must agree, this duplication of services is bound to create ill will between both parties

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    I think they both could of worked something out with out the yelling and the pushing...

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    I'm not bashing cops. I'm bashing the administration that permits this ludicrous duplication of services and pits these guys against one another. Talk about corporate cultures.

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    I can see the duplication of some services like SCUBA. How many of us would like to dive a pier looking for explosives? Some of the ESU's duplication is hard to understand. It is a management problem.

    Around me we get the occasional "it's a crime scene, you can't go in" but often we can handle it by asking if they want the liability of a person's death on their hands. You have to work with the PD prior to this comming up at the scene of the incident.

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    Thats really too bad that this has to happen.
    "It was one push, and I fell to the ground and twisted my knee," Gaine, supporting himself with crutches, told The Post.
    How long was he out for? cus that is just stupid, at no point should anyone push anyone around.

    Inside, he was stopped by a beefy cop who ordered him to leave, saying it was a crime scene.
    Beefy? what a discription

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    So long as "The Administration" keeps the line drawn, between the two services, thin if not transparent. The more likely these events will occur. Stupid or Tactical?

    As long as the two sides are at odds, the less likely a uniformed coalition will approach the bargaining table together.

    Nothing new here.

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    We get along good with our pd and they better not get snooty with patty cake deal they got from the town.

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    Wink I'm a LONG way from New York but...

    This idiotic "rivalry" between the fire fighters and cops in NYC has got to end. Someone is going to get hurt and get hurt bad unless some cooler heads prevail.
    I'm bashing the administration that permits this ludicrous duplication of services and pits these guys against one another.
    George NAILS it yet again!

    The city's political leadership is going to have to create and enforce clear areas of responsibility. In a twisted sort of way, maybe this NY mayor is the guy to fix the mess. With his fire station closings, smoking bans, and police force reductions, everyone already hates him so he doesn't have to worry about hurting his image.

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    around here are firehouse is pretty good with the cops except when it comes to cancelling us, they say 21 fire can cancel but we still respond to the scene or wait for a fire officer to cancel us.there has been times where the PD gets on scene saying nothing showing , cancel, but when we get there its a working fire. the ones we have the most trouble with is the local rescue squad.always on scene trying to take over our command and alot of other stupid sh*t.

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    there has been times where the PD gets on scene saying nothing showing , cancel, but when we get there its a working fire
    Times???? As in plural????

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    Originally posted by E229Lt
    Times???? As in plural????

    yes sir has happened more than once. and after they would say cancel we would go back to the house and get off the trucks take our gear off and sign in , the whole nine yards. and a little while later they would call us back because its a working structure fire.

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    Originally posted by EoneTiller
    yes sir has happened more than once. and after they would say cancel we would go back to the house and get off the trucks take our gear off and sign in , the whole nine yards. and a little while later they would call us back because its a working structure fire.
    And to think that in another thread, folks are suggesting that it would be a good thing for police to be *in charge of* firefighters. ::sigh::

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    Thumbs down

    Eone we get the same thing from our local pd. Even at Accidents this happens. They tell the dispatch center that it is just a fender bender and to recall fire, rescue and ems then a few minutes later we are toned out for a rescue or car fire or somebody needs a ride to the ER. We have learned to just ignore thier "findings" and let the dispatch center know we are still going to the scene but at reduced speed with the exception of the first out truck.

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    I have worked fires and accident scenes in Alberta Canada with a lot of RCMP. Nothing but fantastic coperation there. It was a small town, 10,000 so most of us knew each other. Very liitle in egos or turf battles there. Only problem we did encounter, would be that 9-11 would only send ambulance on request of RCMP member, not fire member. Police thought it was also stupid as they were only trained in rudimentary first aid, wheras lots of fire fighters were also EMT, EMR, or Paramedic. This is kind of related to insurance and lots of private ambulance services in rural Alberta. I'm not sure how fire and Police get along in larger cities, but have not heard of major problems there. Definitely sounds like political/management turf wars and manipulation getting on the way of effective emergency response.

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    Originally posted by cozmosis
    And to think that in another thread, folks are suggesting that it would be a good thing for police to be *in charge of* firefighters.

    oh that would go over smoothly.


    Originally posted by Trafficjockey93
    Eone we get the same thing from our local pd. Even at Accidents this happens. They tell the dispatch center that it is just a fender bender and to recall fire, rescue and ems then a few minutes later we are toned out for a rescue or car fire or somebody needs a ride to the ER. We have learned to just ignore thier "findings" and let the dispatch center know we are still going to the scene but at reduced speed with the exception of the first out truck.

    yea i know exactly what your saying.another thing is recently the patrol cars have SCBA'S in them & they have the fire extuingishers. i think if they can carry that stuff then we can have shotguns racks equipped with actual shotguns in the fire trucks.

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    Default There's only one thing left to do...

    Well, I'd say it's time to have that charity softball game between the fire department and police department. I don't see this getting resolved any other way. Sanitation department will umpire. The mayor will act as softball commissioner to resolve any disputes or bench brawls.
    It's either that or a game of "touch" football. Maybe donkey basketball.
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    yea i know exactly what your saying.another thing is recently the patrol cars have SCBA'S in them & they have the fire extuingishers. i think if they can carry that stuff then we can have shotguns racks equipped with actual shotguns in the fire trucks.
    Shotguns are a dumb idea, but there is something you can do. Under OSHA or PEOSHA or whatever stds., the PD is held to the same standards as the FD. Do the cops have a Respiratory Protection Plan? Do they receive training? Have they been fit tested? If not, the packs should come out.

    Well, I'd say it's time to have that charity softball game between the fire department and police department. I don't see this getting resolved any other way. Sanitation department will umpire. The mayor will act as softball commissioner to resolve any disputes or bench brawls.
    I don't know about softball, but I have been to the FDNYvs. NYPD hockey game. Definitely not your friendly gathering.

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    Not for nothin, but 99% of the time we get along great with the PD. They come into quarters, to use the bathroom, eat or get out of the rain. You'd think by reading this board that theres this huge battle raging. Not true. All things considered we get along very well with the NYPD.

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    We also get along very will with NYPD police officers. The only thing that has to be done is to paint those white and blue ESU trucks FDNY red.
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    Typical of most Fire/EMS/PD disputes they are usually caused and maintained by the same people over and over. Each organization has their "special" people (can't use asteriks anymore ) and evceryone is aware of who they are. E229 is exactly right. Divide and conquer is the easiest way for the City to keep both organizations down. What is needed I think is a strong and organized union approach. Both sides need to sit down together and come up with some "working rules" that will benefit each side. Easy? No way!! But achievable if they are willing to work at it.

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    To get an idea of where I'm at, coming from, been, or whatever - look at the post that I did earlier today on the "Broward Sheriff" Thread. The problems mentioned by George, and friends that I have in the NYC area, are very real, and as George said, will lead to a serious injury or death, if the situation is not resolved, Quickly and permenently. A guy named Ed Norris, from NYPD, came to Baltimore a few years ago as the new Police Commissioner. He was amazed (to quote a friend in the Baltimore FD) to learn that the cops did law enfocement and the FD did everything else. Reportedly, he wanted to establish another NYPD style operation with the ESU, HazMat, etc. but the Baltimore mayor said no. He has since moved on to the Maryland state police. Back to my area. We do EVERYTHING except law enforcement, and even a few parts of law enforcement are ours, such as the Bomb Squad and Arson Investigation areas. All "normal" FD operations are provided, HazMat, Dive, Tech Rescue, EMS, Suppression, Etc. That we get along VERY well with the PD is not an overstatement. As an example, the Rope Rescue Team recently provided several days of training for the Police SWAT Team. If needed, a FD specialty team will stand by (staged well out of the area) while a Police operation is going on, not to play Cop, but to make a rescue if necessary. Many of the County PD officers are also Volunteer Firefighters. The New York type problems will not be happening here because we both have different jobs to do, sometimes at the same incident, and most importantly, WE TALK TO EACH OTHER. Stay Safe....
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