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    Default What a load! FE Nozzles and hose debate

    The current FE story PLANNING A HOSE AND NOZZLE SYSTEM FOR EFFECTIVE operations BY JAY COMELLA

    Proof anything can get published these days………..

    “On arrival, the first-alarm companies encountered a heavy fire condition on the first floor with extension up the stairway. They made an aggressive interior attack using multiple 11/2-inch handlines.”

    Gee, you suppose that Oakland, San Fran and LA City have never in 99 years of using 1 ½ inch hose ever had a working house fire? The article decides to focus blame on hose size.

    “One of the three direct causes the Board of Inquiry report cited for the line-of-duty death was the inability of 11/2-inch hose to flow sufficient water to extinguish the heavy volume of fire encountered.”

    It couldn’t be the crews were inside a well involved structure that fell on them right? Structures will stay up if the right fire flow hits them or is it three guys in the wrong place for what?

    “ The report further recommended using 13/4-inch hose to remedy insufficient fire flow volume of the 11/2-inch hose. By simply upgrading from 11/2-inch to 13/4-inch hose, the OFD could eliminate fully one- third of the direct causes cited by the Board of Inquiry.”

    Did you know a majority of the hose in use by the FD was made in Oakland? It was made by American Rubber, it was labeled 1 ½” but actually 1 ¾”??? Hose size alone or even a change of nozzles does not insure flow, many 1 ¾ inch hoses are closer to 1 ½ or have lousy flow abilities of 1 ½” hose.

    “Inquiry's findings were based on the assumption that the departmental target flow rate of 125 gallons per minute (gpm) through 11/2-inch hose was met. Inaccurate pump chart that states friction loss (FL) to be 15 pounds per square inch (psi) per 100 feet to flow 125 gpm through 11/2-inch hose. This underestimates friction loss by 23 psi per 100 feet. Actual FL in 100 feet of 11/2-inch hose while flowing 125 gpm is 38 psi.”

    It all depends on the hose and chart. Is it 38 or 53 psi per 100?

    “The only combination (fog) nozzles that the OFD currently employs are designed to operate at 100 psi NP. The pump chart states nozzle pressure to be 80 psi.”

    So the author tells us that a 100 psi nozzle cannot be used at 80 psi! Bull! OFD knew what they were doing.

    The author contradicts himself saying, “Recent flow tests performed with various engine companies showed flows ranging from 60 to 105 gpm. The average was about 85 gpm.”

    So what is the real friction loss?

    When compared to 85 to 105 gpm “ The vast majority of the American fire service considers 150 gpm to be the minimum acceptable flow rate for interior structural fire attack. Many fire departments use a target flow rate of 180 gpm to ensure an added margin of safety.”

    The vast majority doing something does not make it right. If it did volunteers would be the standard, zero pay, red trucks and plastic helmets, etc…. The end of the day OFD’s fires went out for years doing what they did in wool pants no bunker pants, and short coats and rubber gloves without injury as did LAFD and SFFD…

    The author states, “Little Drops of Water: 50 Years Later," Parts 1 and 2, Fire Engineering, February and March 2000), Andrew Fredericks, the foremost expert on engine company operations, further states that in addition to 150 gpm being the minimum acceptable flow for residential fires, 250 gpm is the minimum acceptable handline flow for operations in commercial occupancies”

    Gee where did those numbers come from? Andy simply told the readers what his FD used and called them the minimum. Dang even OFD wouldn’t use 250, they used 328, as did SFFD, Chicago, LAFD, etc. Just because the author used it does not make it right. NFPA says 100 and 200 gpm. Of course both authors left that out.

    The author states, “OFD's target flow rate of 125 gpm is well below the nationally accepted fire service standard, and its actual flow rate of 85 gpm simply is inadequate for modern fire conditions.”

    Gee that does not jive with NFPA, they actually flowed 5 gpm over, the small line standard and 78 more than the commercial standard of FDNY and 138 more than NFPA.

    “The outcome of fireground operations depends on the outcome of the battle between the water the engine company delivers (gpm) and the heat (Btus) the fire generates.”

    Sorta, it assumes a go or no go decision is made before entering a structure that is collapsing. Water won’t hold the structure up. Venting is important too.

    “The flow at which the engine company can win the battle and kill the fire is defined as the critical flow rate. If the critical flow rate is not met, the battle will be lost.”

    Sorta, you simply won’t advance. It doesn’t mean you lose.

    You gotta love statements like: “. More than 75 pounds RF is considered to be too much reaction force for a handline. However, RF less than 45 pounds is considered to be a sign of an ineffective stream.”

    Who says 75 pounds and 45 pounds? Another well I read it somewhere thing…

    “characteristics are a function of the following factors: 1. Flow rate.
    2. Hose size.
    3. Friction loss.
    4. Pump discharge pressure. “
    Really, drag resistance, kinking, hangup coupling design, hose reactivity due to weave just bend the coupling making the hose whip or kink at the nozzle, twist in the line causing it to pull out of your hands, resistance to cutting and burning aren’t just or more important? There is a lot of crap hose out there.
    “Handline maneuverability is determined by the pressure at which a given size line must be pumped to attain a desired flow rate.”
    Not always, it is also a function of hose weft and warp thread design. And by the drag characteristics of the hose, the nozzles reaction with flow and pressure than can vary wildly from nozzle to nozzle. But heck the author in this case … just narrows it down to what you do understand leaving out the rest?
    “If hose size remains constant and flow is increased, pump discharge pressure must be increased to account for greater friction loss. This reduces maneuverability as the line approaches the stiffness of a pipe.”
    That depends on the hose design, there are makes at 450 pounds will act the same as 100 psi.
    “The aforementioned parameters lead to certain conclusions about what constitutes a well-planned hose and nozzle system for residential fires.”
    BULL! Two hoses full of water at the same size and psi inside one will drag with one third the effort, another will kink while the other will not, one will flow 2/3rd of its ability through a tight overhand knot in the hose and the other flow nothing. IT IS THE HOSE TOO STUPID!
    “The hose should be capable of flowing between 150 and 180 gpm with relatively low friction loss. The nozzle should have similar flow capability at a nozzle pressure that will maintain reaction force in the range of between 45 and 75 pounds. Because of the pressures required to account for friction loss, the practical flow limit for 11/2-inch hose is 125 gpm, whereas the practical flow limit for 13/4-inch hose is 200 gpm
    Gee only 1 ½ or 1 ¾ is allowed for interior attack? You can make a better case for 2 inch hose, lower FL, less stiff and it will do commercial fires as well, you know, like the smooth bore argument he uses later one type for all fires!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    “There is an inverse relationship between nozzle cost and suitability for interior structural firefighting. Unlike so many things in modern-day, high-tech society, the best kind of nozzle actually costs substantially less than the other kinds.”
    Wow, pretty strong statement, the fact 99% of the U.S. fire service started with SBs and went to use fogs today says it all, they wanted versatility and achieved it with combination nozzles. They fight more fire than any SB nozzle. Sounds like one way only thinking going into the report.
    The smooth bore tip “It is the most durable and reliable of all nozzles. It requires the least maintenance of any nozzle type and has the longest service life.”
    So dropping it once doesn’t mess up the stream forever?
    “the smooth-bore requires the least amount of training for pump and nozzle operators to become proficient.”
    Bull! Easier than a fixed flow fog? No the same, so it ties for easiest, or does it. One kink and what happens to the SB or fixed flow stream? If you gate the stream back what happens? The stream breaksup and you lose reach. That does not happen with an automatic nozzle. What happens when another line opens up with another smooth bore, the nozzles have no way to balance the lower EP, so both streams are bad, the inverse is true also shut one down and the other is over pressured. Not the case with an automatic tip. And the fact no pressure relief valve on earth can be used with a smooth bore tip just adds to the assurance the so called simple nozzle can never work well. Of course if you live in FDNY and only run one line per rig, it will work OK except for the kinking and gating issues.
    So the firefighters who proceeded us understood this and those today don’t have a clue who push smooth bores.
    “Since you can produce only a solid stream with the smooth-bore nozzle, its use ensures that members and victims will not be exposed to the potentially debilitating or lethal effects associated with introducing a fog stream into the fire area.”
    Wow! Kewl concept, firefighters are stupid, no mention of the other uses for a fog or spray position on the nozzle, we should use the same thinking for the rest of the rig too, like one possible engine pressure, just one nozzle, just one length of attack line, one gear on the rig so they don’t speed, …how did he miss 2 inch hose???
    “Fog nozzles should be kept in the inventory for other uses, such as flammable-liquid fires.”
    Damm boy! How about a foam tip for that type of fire!!!!!
    “Constant gallonage or single gallonage indicates that this nozzle is designed to flow a specific gallonage when operated at the specific pressure for which it is designed, such as 150 gpm at 100 psi NP.”
    Oh yeah, what a fairy tale. You mean, the kinks don’t bother it, a line opening or closing etc??? dream on.
    “The constant-gallonage nozzle is the only kind of fog nozzle that should be in an engine company's inventory.”
    Yes daddy! Got any facts to support that??? Even though 42,000 of the nations 44,000 FD’s don’t use them? Dream on sport the others work just fine. If yo don’t mind with his recommendations of changing the nozzle everytime the water supply situation changes, or a kink occurs, or a relief valve is used, or a second line is opened or closed, great advice. Why do you suppose the turbo jet is the worlds most popular nozzle? Because it replaced the fixed flow nozzle in the 60;’s it didn’t work is why so fd’s wanted another choice. The moved away from fixed flow tips. As the current users today will as well in time.
    So much for a factual article, it is all about a vary limited opinion of the author authors…
    “. It has more moving parts and is more maintenance-intensive than the constant-gallonage nozzle and, hence, has an increased potential for nozzle failure or malfunction.”
    So why is it the most purchased nozzle all time and continues to hold that position?? Stupid buyers?? One guy dies and blame the nozzle and have the whole country change them?? Come on?
    Sorta, who do yo know has broken one, who has enough fires or drills to break one? Why offer a 5 year or longer bumper to bumper warranty if they are so fragile? Why are they the 2nd most used nozzle in the fire service at a tune of 11,300 to 1 to a smooth bore tip? Firefighters are stupid???
    “nozzle operator can choose a desired flow. This operation requires an increased level of training for nozzle and pump operators. If the nozzle operator changes the flow setting, the pump operator must be informed so he can adjust pump discharge pressure to the appropriate level for the selected flow.”
    Not really! You can pump the max or second highest and reduce the flow and reaction at the nozzle just fine. If gives the operator control with or without the pump operator changing, at least that is how 99% of the world uses them every day.
    “The adjust-able-gallonage nozzle should not be part of an engine company's nozzle inventory.”
    Hmm, so 42,000 Fd’s say 5 engines per FD, 30 nozzles, throw away 100 million in nozzles, yeah right!
    “The automatic nozzle is also called the constant-pressure nozzle. Constant pressure refers to the fact that the nozzle produces a stream of reach and appearance consistent with 100-psi tip pressure regardless of the pressure actually coming into the base of the nozzle.”
    Oh yeah which make does that? Elkhart? No, NFPA spec? NO! So where is the beef sport?
    “The orifice is maintained at a size that, for the given amount of water, provides approximately 100 psi NP. “
    He forgot that any psi can be purchased, 50, 60, 75, 80 100 125 etc.
    “This creates a visually attractive stream with good reach over an extremely wide range of flows.”
    90% of the flow through a ring… not just visually effective. Some you can gate back and not effect stream reach what other nozzle can do that? NONE
    “This has prompted nozzle sales representatives to state, "The automatic nozzle will produce an effective stream no matter what the flow."
    Which it does.
    “Though stream quality and reach are important, stream effectiveness is determined by whether it meets the critical flow rate.’
    That is a department choice right? Kinda like the author telling us who flow 250 on a house fire that 150 or 180 is ideal, or our nozzles are all wrong, or 1 3//4 is the only way to go. Simply pump one pressure to meet the fire flow not pick the nozzle flow before the fire and decide to make it fit the way the author suggests.
    “Often, the stream produced by the automatic nozzle is good-looking but doesn't have much water in it. “
    Define often, who what where is that the case, are all firefighters stupid? They can’t tell by reaction that it is 30 gpm not 350 gpm. They can. If you follow Clydes instructions you cannot under supply an automatic, RIGHT?
    So all these nozzles he tells us not to use, why does NFPA allow them?
    “the minimum acceptable handline flow for operations in commercial occupancies is 250 gpm. For this type of flow, 21/2-inch hose is the line of choice.”
    250 huh? NFPA says 200, Chicago, LA, OFD, SFFD say 328.
    “Friction loss at 250 gpm is 12 psi per 100 feet of 21/2-inch line. For the same flow in two-inch hose, the friction loss is 50 psi per 100 feet.”
    Yeah right! I use 1 ¾ with 45 pound loss per 100, so why would 2 inch be higher? 25 psi is the loss in a 2 inch at 250 gpm. More bad advice.
    Heck he has already proven that 105 gpm is available at 15 not 35 psi loss in a 1 ½ line, it is the hose stupid!
    “Though a 21/2-inch line is a very substantial piece of equipment, it is not too heavy to aggressively advance as a handline, as would be the case with three-inch hose.”
    Really? Why does FDNY assign three engine company crews to deploy one by SOP? He wants the rest of the understaffed world to use that size? OFD and SFFD use 3 inch and do just fine.
    “Many departments successfully employ a 11/4-inch tip. Its 324-gpm flow technically classes it as a large-caliber stream, making this size tip possibly better suited for use with master stream devices. A far greater number of departments use the 11/8-inch tip.”
    Bull there are more three high stacked tips on 2 ½” handlines than any other option when a smooth bore is used, however, fogs outnumber smooth bores on 2 ½” lines 17,600 to 1. The one inch tip is the most common because it is always on the line and not often removed.
    “the 11/8-inch tip. With a flow of 266 gpm at 50-psi nozzle pressure, it has a reaction force of 95 pounds”
    Gee what happened to the 45 to 75 pound NR rule he stated earlier??? If 75 doesn’t matter use the 1 ¼ or salt lakes 1 3/8 tip, after all the author says flow is everything.
    “As Fredericks states in his article "The 21/2-Inch Handline" (Fire Engineering, December 1996), "No combination of smaller handlines can duplicate the volume, reach, and pure knockdown power of a single, well-placed 21/2-inch line.”

    Bull! 1 ¾” lines can flow 245, as can a 2 inch line. So just because he used a given size doesn’t mean the other firefighter friendly sizes can’t do it better with less guys. Tradition is what was preached not progressive choice or that firefighters can learn to be smart.

     Alleged benefits: exceptional penetrating power due to hydraulic force of the stream,
     little premature water vaporization in highly heated fire areas,
     easy reduction to smaller handline(s) after knockdown, and
    Yeah right, 1 ¾ or 2 inch would always offer the same. And yo don’t have to break them down to smaller sizes.

    “Using a 21/2-inch line is indicated in situations in which fire conditions are likely to overwhelm smaller handlines.”

    Really? Let’s go back to 1969. What was the most common handline size in FDNY? 1 ¾” So why use 2 ½” at all, pick one size I line 2 inch and not start off with the wrong size ever, pump it based on the flow ability of the nozzle and live happily ever after.

    “Even a private dwelling may exhibit a fire condition heavy enough to warrant the quick knockdown power of the 21/2-inch line.”

    That is why OFD lost guys, they shouldn’t have been inside, and a 2 ½” is not as good an option as the deck gun would have been. Losers are losers, don’t go in.

    The caption: “) OFD members comparing a 13/4-inch hose with a 15/16-inch smooth-bore nozzle flowing 180 gpm vs. a 11/2-inch hose with 125 gpm @ 100 psi adjustable-gallonage nozzle flowing 79 gpm (pump discharge pressure as per OFD SOPs).”:

    So what? It worked on every fire up until a building fell on a crew, so the author suggest throwing the baby out with the bath water

    “The reach afforded by the larger line allows it to be operated from outside”

    What crap! The size of the line has nothing to do with reach of a stream. Flow, nozzle pressure and the nozzle does! Doesn’t this guy have a clue or his editorial board? Great country and dribble can be published and accepted as fact.

    “. The 21/2-inch handlines are much more mobile and easier to deploy than master stream devices. This allows streams to be brought to bear from a greater variety of locations.”

    So a blitz fire monitor with 2 inch hose flowing 456 wouldn’t reach further flow more, and be easier to move, use less firefighters? Heck this is 2003 RIGHT?

    “If the engine company officer is unable to determine the extent (size) of the fire area, a 21/2-inch line should be used.”

    So a 1 ¾ at 250 psi or a 2 inch at 200 psi wouldn’t be better for the typical 2 to 3 guys on a line versus a2 ½” line? Flow not line size is the key right?

    “it may be determined that the amount of fire encountered can be handled with smaller hose. As with the above-mentioned private dwelling scenario, the 21/2-inch hose can be reduced to, or replaced by, a smaller line.”

    And what cost exhausted guys? Why not start with a one size fits all interior attack line?

    “A 21/2-inch line with 11/8-inch tip operating at 50 psi NP discharges more than a ton of water a minute. The use of smaller lines in this kind of situation would be an exercise in futility.”

    He should have said any flow less than the magic 250 of his would be futile…not a hose size issue.

    There is always this assumption that when a 2 ½” is pulled it is always with the right sized tip, right EP etc. BULL it is just like OFD’s 1 ½” hose, it all depends on the lazyness of the FD.

    “Proper consideration for members' safety demands the use of 21/2-inch hose and smooth-bore nozzles for standpipe operations. NFPA 14, Standard for Standpipe Systems, was developed based on the use of 150 feet of 21/2-inch hose equipped with a 11/8-inch smooth-bore nozzle. Depending on which of the two versions of the standard a given standpipe system was de-signed under, outlet pressures can be either 65 psi (old criteria) or 100 psi (new criteria). Outlet pressures such as these simply will not meet the friction loss requirements for smaller-diameter hose, especially in conjunction with 75-psi or 100-psi nozzles”
    BULL! If you follow a model code like most of the civilized fire service and not an NFPA silly minimum you can use almost any size hose and nozzle safely. No codes you better use 3 inch hose to make the FL work out, lets do it together shall me. 50 psi NP 15 psi fl per 100 or 63 is needed, kinks anyone? Better go with 3 inch that needs just 50 psi. Any kinks at 59 or 65 psi? Yeah, so follow a code not an NFPA minimum!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    “the Philadelphia Fire Department used 13/4-inch hose and automatic fog nozzles for standpipe operations. At numerous sessions of the Fire Department Instructors Conference (FDIC) Engine Company Operations Class, Denver (CO) Fire Department Battalion Chief David McGrail replicated the outlet pressures (40-45 psi) that existed at the One Meridian Plaza fire. Consistently, 13/4-inch hose with an automatic tip flows less than 50 gpm while 21/2-inch line with a 11/8-inch tip achieves flows in the range of 200 to 210 gpm.”
    So philly is stupid, they knew that before the fire! Who sets the codes and enforces them, the FD! So they are lazy, who’s fault is that? The Fd’s!
    “The solid streams produced by smooth-bore nozzles will further serve to increase the safety and efficiency of fireground operations. Solid streams are less susceptible to premature vaporization than fog streams. That is the reason solid streams are superior to fog streams in so many aspects of the fire extinguishment process. Solid streams are better able to penetrate superheated atmospheres.”
    So with 43,000 FDs using combo nozzles what percentage uses a fog position to attach fires? Maybe 6? Everyone else uses a straight or narrow pattern. There is no data to prove a SB tips is better than a combo straight stream in any of the cases he suggests, NONE!
    “This, combined with the fact that their physical properties give them far superior reach, means that solid streams are much more apt to reach the seat of the fire.”
    Plenty of data proves SB rachis no better and often worse than a combo nozzle. Heck both straight up and the combo always wins so much for the stream staying together tighter than a combo, energy is enrgy.
    “With a smaller percentage of the stream vaporizing, the excess steam generation inherent in fog stream application is not present.”
    And what percentage would that be? And if the fire is vaporizing the stream in;t that what the water is suppose to do absorb heat?
    You can’t support vaporization with any data, it is not available
    “Less steam generation means less disruption of the thermal balance of the fire compartment.”
    Yeah yeah yeah, the movie the nozzleman and coordinated fire attack vintage 1960’s both proved no steam would be made with a combo nozzle in the ss position.
    “This is in direct opposition to the conditions created by introducing a fog stream into the fire compartment.”
    Not really, a fog stream operated intermitantly will not cause any steam either. .Any facts in this article?
    “The use of smooth-bore nozzles will lead to safer and more efficient fireground operations for department members.”
    Yeah right, is that why no one uses them?
    “The large, heavy drops of water created by smooth-bore nozzle movement have a much lower surface-to-mass ratio than the fine droplets produced by a fog nozzle”
    Not really, when a combo is used in the ss position.
    “This makes the solid stream more efficient for extinguishments”
    There is lots of real science that proves a fog stream is better at absorbing heat but no to support a sb is better than a combo in the ss position.
    “ the status quo is simply unacceptable.”
    One death due to collapse of a structure is the basis for replacing all the nozzles in the fire service and in OFD, yeah right!~
    Option 1. Do nothing other than change the OFD pump chart to accurately reflect the current flow rate from 11/2-inch hose. This will ensure that members are informed regarding how much water flow (79 gpm) is at their disposal while conducting interior structural firefighting operations. This is the least acceptable option.
    Gee actual flow testing showed 105 gpm from the hose, nozzle and pumper in question, NFPA says 100 is fine.
    Option 2. Issue a standard operating proceedure (SOP) stating the proper pump discharge pressures necessary to attain the flow volumes the department has long stated to be its target flows. The pump chart would need to be corrected to show true FL and NP; 40 psi (rounded up from 38 psi to make calculations easier at 02:00) FL per 100 feet of 11/2-inch hose and 100 psi NP to flow 125 gpm, and 12 psi FL per 100 feet of 21/2-inch line and 100 psi NP to flow 250 gpm. Nozzle RF would be 63 pounds and 126 pounds, respectively. Theoretically, this would meet the department target flow rate. The practicality of meeting the target flows is questionable because a major portion of the nozzle inventory is of types and conditions that will affect flow rate negatively. There is no implementation cost. However, 11/2-inch flow still will not meet the 150-gpm minimum acceptable flow rate for interior operations in residential occupancies, and the unwieldy RF of the 21/2-inch line will cause it to be considered a static defensive weapon.
    150 huh, NFPA doesn’t say 150. What is yor source, the standards are the standards. How about take the turbo jet break aparts off the 2 ½ fog tips they own and put them on the 1 ½” hose you get 150 gpm then, don’t you? Oh you didn’t think about that did you?

    Option 3. Implement Option 2. Additionally, purchase the needed quantity of 11/2-inch and 21/2-inch 100-psi fog nozzles. Purchase the constant-gallonage kind. Results would be the same as Option 2. However, the practicality of meeting target flows will be greatly improved because of the nozzle inventory.
    HUH? If he is saying there nozzles suck why buy more? The current ones flow a larger flow range. Gee they are using 80 psi now why raise NR?

    Option 4. Replace existing 11/2-inch fog nozzles with 150-gpm @ 100 psi constant-gallonage fog nozzles, which generate 76 pounds RF. Update the pump chart to show 55 psi FL per 100 feet of 11/2-inch hose to flow 150 gpm. Ensure that all 21/2-inch fog nozzles are constant gallonage. Flow, NP, and RF numbers for 21/2-inch would be the same as in Option 2. This option would allow engine companies to achieve the minimum acceptable handline flow for interior structural firefighting, 150 gpm. This improved flow, however, would come at an excessive NRF. Some consultant!

    Option 5. In addition to new nozzles, purchase 13/4-inch hose. To flow 150 gpm, 13/4-inch hose is a much more practical choice than 11/2-inch. FL would be 30 psi per 100 feet of line.

    Depends on the hose they could buy low bid 1 ¾ ;like most town and flow less than their 1 ½” hose.
    Option 6. With 13/4-inch and 21/2-inch hose, use 75-psi constant-gallonage fog nozzles. 150 gpm @ 75 psi NP results in 66 pounds RF. 250 gpm @ 75 psi generates 109 pounds RF. This would allow engine companies to flow 150 gpm at an RF that is in the spectrum appropriate for smaller handlines, between 45 and 70 pounds.
    Or take the tips off the 2 ½” nozzles they already own and use them on the shut off of the 1 ½” nozzles place the tip at 200 gpm and you get 173 gpm at no cost.

    Option 7. With 13/4-inch and 21/2-inch hose, use 50-psi constant-gallonage fog nozzles. 150 gpm @ 50 psi NP results in 54 pounds RF. 250 gpm @ 50 psi generates 89 pounds RF.
    Or take the tips off the 2 ½” nozzles they already own and use them on the shut off of the 1 ½” nozzles place the tip at 250 gpm setting and you get 177 gpm at no cost. Everything is about spending money, it doesn’t have to be

    Option 8. Implement one of Options 2 through 7. Additionally, issue an SOP stating that only the narrowest pattern (straight stream) on a fog nozzle shall be used for interior firefighting. Direct the Training Division staff to stop training the recruits to use a 30° fog pattern for interior fire attack. Enough members have received steam burns to question the validity of this tactic. Options 2 through 7 address safety through addressing flow. Option 8 goes a step further toward improving safety by attempting to ensure proper stream selection. However, there is the possibility that the nozzle may be left on the wrong pattern setting or the setting may be inadvertently switched as the nozzle gets bumped around during stretching and advancing.
    Yeah change 45 years of sops because a building fell on a guy and blame it on the nozzle.

    Option 9. With 13/4-inch and 21/2-inch hose, use 7/8-inch and 11/8-inch smooth-bore nozzles, respectively. A 7/8-inch smooth-bore tip will flow 160 gpm @ 50 psi NP with 57 pounds of RF. A flow of 160 gpm through 13/4-inch requires a FL of 35 psi per 100 feet
    Sure why not and teach tem how to deal with on off operations, kinks, and all the rest. 1 1/8” huh? Will they assign 3 engine crews to move the line? Will ventilation always be in front of the line and above it? If you want to make them FDNY then do it all the way, if not how about 1 ¼ inch tip or a blitz fire monitor and 2 inch hose instead.


    “When reviewing the above-listed options, consider several factors, including how each option affects the following issues: initial and long-term costs, maintenance needs, durability, reliability, service life, effectiveness, efficiency, safety of members, and safety of victims. In view of these considerations,”

    Yep so use existing nozzles and throttle up and do what has got you through 45 years successfully wearing less gear than any other FD on earth.

  2. #2
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    Default Larry, Larry, Larry........

    LHS* is Back!

    "Proof anything can get published these days……….."

    Except anything you write, because you were tossed from Fire-Rescue magazine!!!!

    It is such a shame- it seems like you could be a fantastic instructor/chief officer...if it weren't for your abrasive attitude! This post is a perfect example!

    FTM-PTB-EGH-RFB!

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    If you can't get the consulting contract...tear them to shreds in a national forum...
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Just more of the same...criticize perhaps one of the best known fire stream guru's, who was killed 9/11, attack the FDNY, like a broken record, anyone who doesn't agree with him is immediately dismissed as wrong.

    And I agree with you FWDBuff..he could be a wealth of knowledge is his ego and attitude would get out of the way.

    FyredUp

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    Thumbs down And the point of all of this is?..............

    This one ranks right between beer in the station and lightbars on Toyota Corollas. I use 11/2", and 2", attack lines, 3" for supply and some 1" for grass/brush fires. no 13/4" and no LDH, and I'm happy with what we have. IT WORKS FOR US. of course we have a variety of nozzles, including a few to use on the 3" if we need it. Now there's an attack line, a 600 gpm 3 inch HANDLINE. works for me. I got lots of water and lots of hands. And no problems. Stay Safe....
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
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    Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
    Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

    IACOJ Budget Analyst

    I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

    www.gdvfd18.com

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    When will Larry realize that no one can get past the first three paragraphs of his posts?

    Reason #1: The post is filled w/ so much venom and hatred that you get sick of it this quickly.

    Reason #2: The reader quickly scans down and realizes that the post is so long, that there is no possible way that knowledge of any use can be gained from reading the rest that wasn't gained already.

    Reason #3: (Note that this reason is derived almost immediately) You all of a sudden realize that this must be Larry and so you stop now, if for no other reason, out of spite.

    When will Larry figure out that if he posted like a rational human being, he might just be of use to someone?

    Stay Safe

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    Wow, so angry. I'll bet you wouldn't be so mad if you'd ever had the opportunity to actually put a fire out, rather than just theorizing about it. Guys that actually do have real world experience fighting fires know better. Nice waste of time, though! I'll be sure to keep you in mind next time I go to work and have yet another ***-kicking job.

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    How many keyboards did you waste typing that?
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    Ladies and gentlemen .......................that;s a RANT !
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
    RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
    LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607
    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

  10. #10
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    Yup......sounds like a Larry-Gram.
    Proudly serving as the IACOJ Minister of Information & Propoganda!
    Be Safe! Lookouts-Awareness-Communications-Escape Routes-Safety Zones

    *Gathering Crust Since 1968*
    On the web at www.section2wildfire.com

  11. #11
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    Whew! I'm exhausted from reading that! Yes, I fell for it; not being as accustomed to rooting out *LHS, I didn't recognize it.

    Ya know, he babbles about the author of the article not having any supporting data, yet, he throw numbers and figures around himslef with no support.

    “The use of smooth-bore nozzles will lead to safer and more efficient fireground operations for department members.”
    Yeah right, is that why no one uses them?
    Says who? I know at least five departments in my immediate area that use them extensively. Some full-time, some POC, some strictly volunteer.....

    And what about these other numbers:

    “The constant-gallonage nozzle is the only kind of fog nozzle that should be in an engine company's inventory.”
    Yes daddy! Got any facts to support that??? Even though 42,000 of the nations 44,000 FD’s don’t use them?
    Got any facts to support that?

    Wow, pretty strong statement, the fact 99% of the U.S. fire service started with SBs and went to use fogs today says it all, they wanted versatility and achieved it with combination nozzles.
    Got any facts to support that?

    Why are they the 2nd most used nozzle in the fire service at a tune of 11,300 to 1 to a smooth bore tip?
    Got any facts to support that? Just because a maker says "I've sold x fog nozzles and y SB this year...." doesn't automatically mean that those numbers are in use. At that ratio, why aren't they the MOST used nozzle?

    I appologize to myself for wasting my time on this venomous drivel.
    Last edited by jaybird210; 07-14-2003 at 12:52 PM.
    Omnis Cedo Domus

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  12. #12
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    Thumbs up My Man Jaybird Said............

    Jay covered all the important bases on this one. I would add that we carry a VARIETY of nozzles for a VARIETY of uses. Like everything else on the face of the earth, there is truly NO "One size fits all". My favorite from our collection is a Custom Fabricated (home made) 3 inch stainless steel tube about 48 inches long, with 2.5 NSFH Thread male couplings on each end, and full length handles. Add a nozzle and a 3 inch supply line and this boy will put Hell out, quickly. If I ever learn how to use the software, I'll post a photo of it. (Stay Safe....
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
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    Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

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    I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

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    Jay,
    I must say I did not fall for all that mumbo-jumbo........... and it wasnt til I scrolled down I didnt know who the suspect was. .........glad to see you are still alive !


    PS- Dont feel sorry for yourself.........I know you are smarter than that !
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
    RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
    LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607
    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

  14. #14
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    So bitter, so angry. Damn that tumbleweed conflagration!

    Something made me think it was the Larrymeister when I started reading, but then i said nah, it couldnt be. I didnt finally give up until 8 paragraphs in. I am so disappointed in myself!
    Shawn M. Cecula
    Firefighter
    IACOJ Division of Fire and EMS

  15. #15
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    Originally posted by jaybird210
    Whew! I'm exhausted from reading that! Yes, I fell for it; not being as accustomed to rooting out *LHS, I didn't recognize it.

    Oh, thats who this jamoke is. I thought he was erradicated a few months ago.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  16. #16
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    Default Larry alert, Larry alert!

    Quote by Larry,
    "So philly is stupid, they knew that before the fire! Who sets the codes and enforces them, the FD! So they are lazy, who’s fault is that? The Fd’s!"

    First he takes on FDNY now he insults the brothers in Philly, stupid and lazy Larry, come on, how many do you know personally I mean. Ohhhh Larry, I do hope you have your nomex underwear on.

    And Larry if your reading this, for you information, the Philadelphia FD does not set nor do they enforce the code in that wonderful city. There is an organization called the Office of Licenses and Inspections (L&I) who does that, and the FD has little to say about it. In fact just after One Meridian, the fire department tried to take over fire inspections from L&I but were unsuccessful.

  17. #17
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    Default Confirmed. It's Larry.

    Here is another one of imtxff44's rants from the apparatus innovation board. http://cms.firehouse.com/forums2/sho...268#post327268

    He sure knows an awful lot about a custom rig that a small town in Nevada runs...

    I'll be adding this nut to my ignore list, yet again. I sure wish he'd keep a username for a while so I wouldn't have to keep on doing that over and over...
    Fire service survival tips:
    1) Cook at 350...
    2) Pump at 150...
    3) When in doubt, isolate and deny entry...
    4) When in trouble, claim lack of adult supervision.

  18. #18
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    Default Proving Larry WRONG! YEEEE HAWWWW!

    Wow...I know this is childish and juvenile, but I CANT HELP MYSELF!!!!! LARRY! YOU ARE WRONG AND HERE IS THE PROOF! MY FIRST SHOT AT SHOVING FACTS UP YOUR "SIX"!!!!!

    In my hand, as we speak, I hold the USFA/FEMA Technical Report on the One Meridian Plaza highrise building fire which occured in Philly on Feb 23, 1991. It is Report Number USFA-TR-049.

    Reference Page 23. I quote:
    FIRE CODE ENFORCEMENT
    "The preparation and adoption of fire safety regulations is managed by the Philadelphia Fire Department under the direction of the Fire Marshal. However, the department does not perform or direct compliance inspections of individual properties. Fire code enforcement is delegated to the Department of Licenses and Inspections. (L & I) by city charter. This department performs the functions of of the building official in Philadelphia.

    The Fire Department conducts inspections of properties applying for variances, follows-up citizen complaints, and makes referrals to L & I. The block inspection program detailed in Fire Department Operational Procedure 4 (see appendix F) provides for the annual inspection of all buildings except pne and two family dwellings. However, Fire Department activities to detect and abate hazards are primarily of an educational nature. Guidelines for referring serious or continuing hazards to L & I are not detailed in the block inspection procedure; however, information regarding the maintenance of referral and appeal records for individual properties is detailed."

    So......Here we go.....Sink me Larry. Use your drivel and TRY and make it sound as if you are right. Use your drivel and make the Philadelphia Fire Department sound bad. Use your drivel and TRY and make me sound bad. It doesnt matter, because you are still WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!!!!!

    Oh, and by the way.....quoting you..."Proof that anything can get printed....."

    They printed YOUR sh*t, didn't they?

    For those of you who dont know, Larry was once the editor of a well-known fire service related magazine. But for some reason or another, (I know, and Larry knows.....) he no longer serves said magazine as it's editor! In fact, I dont think he even contributes articles any more! Do you Larry?

  19. #19
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    This should P#ss of Larry because of his distain for my department. After 30 plus years of firefighting I still like the 1 1/2" attack line for dwelling fires but didn't care for the 1 3/4". The dinosaur comes out in me again. Of course I realize that the guru of firefighting will argue I know absolutely nothing about firefighting tactics and strategy ect, ect, but I believe 30 years of experience does make my opinion valid regardless of his rantings. My crew and I would love nothing more than to take him into the bowels of fire and hell as we firefighters know it. No I will not get into a peeing match with this RUDE and quite frankly CRUDE individual, it's an opinion and it ends here.

  20. #20
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    Hmmm, let's see....who's gonna follow the Lt from Detroit into a tenement fire, and who's gonna follow Larry into anything?
    The line to follow the Lt forms right behind me.

    The other one or two of ya have to find Larry's line yourself.
    Last edited by Steamer; 07-15-2003 at 12:10 AM.
    Steve Gallagher
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  21. #21
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    Steve, do you really think Larry would have a line behind him?!?!
    Omnis Cedo Domus

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    I thought he was erradicated a few months ago
    Sorry nmfire, he's just like fire ants. You can't really kill them, you just hope to run them out of your yard.

  23. #23
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    It could happen, Jay. But if I were him, I don't think I'd turn my back on people carrying so many sharp and pointy tools.
    Steve Gallagher
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    ----------------------------
    "I don't apologize for anything. When I make a mistake, I take the blame and go on from there." - Woody Hayes

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    Be very careful guys. This person once emailed my chief and wanted me fired over a discussion on this forum that called into question his claim to be an ISO rep. He has gotten exactly what he wanted by posting here, some attention and a rise out of all of you.
    Proud to be an American, Union Firefighter!

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Proving Larry WRONG! YEEEE HAWWWW!

    Originally posted by FWDbuff
    For those of you who dont know, Larry was once the editor of a well-known fire service related magazine. But for some reason or another, (I know, and Larry knows.....) he no longer serves said magazine as it's editor! In fact, I dont think he even contributes articles any more! Do you Larry?
    Ok I'll ask the question everyone wants to know. Whats the deal here?

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