1. #1
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    E40FDNYL35's Avatar
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    Angry What would you do?

    Say someone took your company PRIDE and sold it. Someone that is not a firefighter and has NOTHING to do with your Company or Department. And, someone that does not have permission to do so.
    OK let me start out from the beginning. Engine 40 Ladder 35 FDNY started to get ideas for a Company Patch in 1988. We had Phantom of the Opera (Lincoln Center), San Juan Hill (1865 neighborhood) and so on. It was discussed for over a year. We decided on The CAVEMEN. The reason. We were in a firehouse that had 1 door and no windows much like a cave. So we had a very talented fireman named Pete Campanlli draw up some art work. Pete drew up about 6 or 7 patch type works. We voted as a Company on the present patch. We voted we would be forever know as The CAVEMEN. So my task being a Johnny at the time was to get someone to make the patch. I sent the art work to a guy I had heard about that DOES THE RIGHT THING. So I sent it off. We talked on the phone and he makes the patch. We agreed that I would get a copyright on it. So I did. So now to my Company's amazement we find our patch for sale on a website. So I call to speak to the owner of this site and try to explain this and she cursed me like she was a truck driver. She hangs up on me. So I call her back and try to explain about the Patch. Because this patch after 9-11-01 is kind of special now. The two CAVEMEN in the patch we always kidded about were Jimmy Giberson L35 and Ed Santore E40. But she didn't want to hear any of this. All she wants to do is make money off my dead friends. You just have to look to see how 9-11-01 was so important to her making $$$$$ off dead firefighters. We don't want money for selling our patch. The guy that sells it donates BIG MONEY to our over 36 firefighters familles and 9th Battalion members. This company she owns is a BIG advertiser on this web page. I talked to Firehouse.com and they were GREAT. I THANK THEM. But I have to do this, I have to do something to let people know what a skell this person is. I wish it did not come to this. THANK YOU. I welcome any and all comments.
    Ray Pfeifer Engine40

    So now I ask you what would you do?
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by E40FDNYL35; 07-20-2003 at 09:21 PM.
    ALL GAVE SOME BUT SOME GAVE ALL
    NEVER FORGET 9-11-01
    343
    CAPT. Frank Callahan Ladder 35 *
    LT. John Ginley Engine 40
    FF. Bruce Gary Engine 40
    FF. Jimmy Giberson Ladder 35
    FF. Michael Otten Ladder 35 *
    FF. Steve Mercado Engine 40 *
    FF. Kevin Bracken Engine 40 *
    FF. Vincent Morello Ladder 35
    FF. Michael Roberts Ladder 35 *
    FF. Michael Lynch Engine 40
    FF. Michael Dauria Engine 40

    Charleston 9
    "If my job was easy a cop would be doing it."
    *******************CLICK HERE*****************

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    what does your station want to do?
    NREMT-P\ Reserve Volunteer Firefighter\Reserve Police Officer
    IACOJ Attack

    Experts built the Titanic, amateurs built the Ark.

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    All we ask is that nobody boot legs our patch or sell without permission (regardless where you get them) to make MONEY off our dead BROTHERS.
    Last edited by E40FDNYL35; 07-22-2003 at 08:48 AM.
    ALL GAVE SOME BUT SOME GAVE ALL
    NEVER FORGET 9-11-01
    343
    CAPT. Frank Callahan Ladder 35 *
    LT. John Ginley Engine 40
    FF. Bruce Gary Engine 40
    FF. Jimmy Giberson Ladder 35
    FF. Michael Otten Ladder 35 *
    FF. Steve Mercado Engine 40 *
    FF. Kevin Bracken Engine 40 *
    FF. Vincent Morello Ladder 35
    FF. Michael Roberts Ladder 35 *
    FF. Michael Lynch Engine 40
    FF. Michael Dauria Engine 40

    Charleston 9
    "If my job was easy a cop would be doing it."
    *******************CLICK HERE*****************

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    Hey I got a friend that is new to E40/L35. Anyway, give us the number or web site so we can call or complain. MAYBE in a perfect world, they will take it off their inventory. If you can't get them to budge, and you do have a copywrite, then I would take legal action. Lastly and probably unlikely, did this person possibly buy the patches from you then try to re-sell them for a profit?? If this happened then I am not sure what you can do. Good luck solving this problem. I am hoping my friend at your house can get me one. Of course I will pay for it through the correct channels so the money goes where it is supposed to. Take care and good luck!!

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    Originally posted by ehs7554
    Hey I got a friend that is new to E40/L35.
    Lastly and probably unlikely, did this person possibly buy the patches from you then try to re-sell them for a profit??
    I was with the Kansas City Kid last night.
    No we did not sell the patch to her. It's a boot leg.
    ALL GAVE SOME BUT SOME GAVE ALL
    NEVER FORGET 9-11-01
    343
    CAPT. Frank Callahan Ladder 35 *
    LT. John Ginley Engine 40
    FF. Bruce Gary Engine 40
    FF. Jimmy Giberson Ladder 35
    FF. Michael Otten Ladder 35 *
    FF. Steve Mercado Engine 40 *
    FF. Kevin Bracken Engine 40 *
    FF. Vincent Morello Ladder 35
    FF. Michael Roberts Ladder 35 *
    FF. Michael Lynch Engine 40
    FF. Michael Dauria Engine 40

    Charleston 9
    "If my job was easy a cop would be doing it."
    *******************CLICK HERE*****************

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    Default MAKE EM' MISERABLE!!!

    POST THEIR COMPANY NAME AND PHONE NUMBER, I SAY!!!!!! Then we, as your brothers and comrades-at-arms, shall let our "Fingers do the walking." Advise the company that:

    1. We think it is despicable that they are selling your patch, memorializing your lost brothers, without your blessing or so much as a small donation to your house fund, the widow's fund, etc etc.

    2. That they will NOT be considered for any future patch purchases by the caller's organization, and additionally, you will advise ALL of your brother firefighters NOT to utilize their services!

    3. You will advise all of your police friends, municipal workers, etc etc etc (ANYONE!) who buys patches, not to utilize their services!

    4. TELL THEM that you learned of their treachery on a nationally (AND INTERNATIONALLY) viewed public firefighting forum! Advise them that every fire station from Maine to Hawaii will have a copy of this forum hanging on their bulletin boards, kitchens, union offices, volunteer fire station dayrooms, etc! Tell them you are probably not the only phone call they will receive!

    DO IT! I am waiting with baited breath and the phone in my hand!

    FTM-PTB-EGH-RFB!

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    Wait it's not about the money. It's about doing the RIGHT THING. We are not asking for money. We are asking not to sell out of respect. We have a patch guy who ALWAYS DOES THE RIGHT THING.
    Last edited by E40FDNYL35; 07-22-2003 at 08:50 AM.
    ALL GAVE SOME BUT SOME GAVE ALL
    NEVER FORGET 9-11-01
    343
    CAPT. Frank Callahan Ladder 35 *
    LT. John Ginley Engine 40
    FF. Bruce Gary Engine 40
    FF. Jimmy Giberson Ladder 35
    FF. Michael Otten Ladder 35 *
    FF. Steve Mercado Engine 40 *
    FF. Kevin Bracken Engine 40 *
    FF. Vincent Morello Ladder 35
    FF. Michael Roberts Ladder 35 *
    FF. Michael Lynch Engine 40
    FF. Michael Dauria Engine 40

    Charleston 9
    "If my job was easy a cop would be doing it."
    *******************CLICK HERE*****************

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    Hey Ray, I'm with Capt G on this one. Seek legal council. You have the copyright, the design and name belong to YOUR HOUSE. Sue her, I'd say sue her for every penny that she's profited by using the design illegally and then turn around and give that money to the widow's fund. ..... I'm sorry that you have to go through this crap.
    To the world you might be one person, but to one person you just might be the world.

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    Sorry up front for the long winded post...

    Since this is a custom piece of artwork that was created by Pete Campanlli. It is automatically considered to be copyrighted material. Regardless of who the cavemen are, or if your company is selling it, the patch and it's artwork are considered to by copyrighted.

    Sections 201 and 202 of Title 17 of United States Code under Copyright Ownership...

    201 Ownership of a Copyright:
    "Copyright in a work protected under this title vests initially in the author or authors of the work. The authors of a joint work are coowner of copyright in the work."

    202 Ownership of copyright as distinct from ownership of material object:

    "Ownership of a copyright, or of any of the exclusive rights under a copyright, is distinct from ownership of any material object in which the work is embodied. Transfer of ownership of any material object, including the copy or phonorecord in which the work is first fixed, does not of itself convey any rights in the copyrighted work embodied in the object; nor, in the absence of an agreement, does transfer of ownership of a copyright or of any exclusive rights under a copyright convey property rights in any material object."

    This clearly proves that Firfighter Pete Campanlli is the copyright owner of the patch, unless those rights were transfered to your Company.

    So to answer your question of what to do?

    You have several options, most of which you should probably consult a lawyer to persue. Any court would gladly grant an injuction and force the company to stop selling the patch, in addition to paying the copyright holder's actual damages and any additional profits the company made by selling the copyrighted material. Chapter 5 of Title 17 of the United States Code outlines the procedure.

    As a less expensive alternative to getting a lawyer, you may want to talk to the merchant about licensing the artwork to continue selling the patch. You can say that your Company is entitled to X dollars for each patch sold or X% of the profit incurred from selling the patch. There are numerous ways to work this though with out court intervention. Make sure you get everything in writing to enforce any terms settled upon.

    You can also contact the vendors that this company uses to produce the patches and explain that by producing the patches they too are violating the copyright and can also be included in any settlement. This action will usually cause the merchant to negoiate with you as if no one will make the patch for them, they cannot sell it.

    In addition, Chapter 5 also allows the offending party to be liable for any lawyer and court fees...

    If the merchant is unwilling to cooperate, bring in the courts and I'm sure they will gladly rethink their position.
    Last edited by Epinephrine; 07-20-2003 at 04:02 PM.

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    Well Epinephrine, Thank you BROTHER. That is a well laid out plan. One in which we will look into further.
    Last edited by E40FDNYL35; 07-22-2003 at 08:50 AM.
    ALL GAVE SOME BUT SOME GAVE ALL
    NEVER FORGET 9-11-01
    343
    CAPT. Frank Callahan Ladder 35 *
    LT. John Ginley Engine 40
    FF. Bruce Gary Engine 40
    FF. Jimmy Giberson Ladder 35
    FF. Michael Otten Ladder 35 *
    FF. Steve Mercado Engine 40 *
    FF. Kevin Bracken Engine 40 *
    FF. Vincent Morello Ladder 35
    FF. Michael Roberts Ladder 35 *
    FF. Michael Lynch Engine 40
    FF. Michael Dauria Engine 40

    Charleston 9
    "If my job was easy a cop would be doing it."
    *******************CLICK HERE*****************

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    I say post the website on here. I think everyone should boycot the business. Buy NOTHING from them until they remove your patch from their inventory.....

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    Let me know if you need any more assistance, I'd be glad to help.

    Oh also... Any patches they have in inventory should become property of your Company too, unless they license the artwork. Given the minimum number of patches most places require you to order, there should be a significant number.

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    Ray, I think this is despicable the making money off the blood of our brothers. I boycott any business that sells unlicensed FDNY or any other dept's products. I would like to know which co. it is so we can boycott it. E-mail me @ puffy2334@cs.com please to let me know. I am in NYC frequently and it is amazing to see on the streets the amount of vendors selling UNLICENSED FDNY merchandise with all of the proceeds going into their pockets, especially in lower Manhattan around the Trade Center area. It seems that wearing apparel of FDNY and NYPD is in style and people are making a buck of it. BOYCOTT THEM!
    "I have no ambition in this world but one, and that is to be a fireman. The position may, in the eyes of some, appear to be a lowly one; but we know the work which a fireman has to do believe that his is a noble calling."

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    I am an intellectual property lawyer (patents, copyrights, etc.) who reads these boards sometimes but I have never posted. I would be honored to help 40/35 in any way that I can... My firm has a big office in New York, including a substantial intellectual property practice. I will check to see if anyone there can handle this for you pro bono (i.e., free of charge). If not, I'd be happy to do it myself, at least informally (I am a California, not a New York lawyer).

    One thing that will make a big difference here is whether any written agreement was made between your firehouse and the fellow who designed the patch. If there was no formal contract, then the patch probably does not qualify as a "work for hire." In that case, the artist would still own the copyright and you would need to get him to sue (or to assign his rights to you guys).

    Firefighter fan in Mass.

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    So let me know if I can help. I won't contact our NY office about it unless you give me the go-ahead E40. If you do, and someone in that office is willing to take it on without charge, I will have him/her call the firehouse.

    Best,
    Firefighter fan in Mass.

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    Thumbs up

    Good News.
    I would like to thank the vendor for finale taking our patch off the website. I hope stuff like this does not happen again.
    See you in Baltimore...
    Last edited by E40FDNYL35; 07-20-2003 at 09:17 PM.
    ALL GAVE SOME BUT SOME GAVE ALL
    NEVER FORGET 9-11-01
    343
    CAPT. Frank Callahan Ladder 35 *
    LT. John Ginley Engine 40
    FF. Bruce Gary Engine 40
    FF. Jimmy Giberson Ladder 35
    FF. Michael Otten Ladder 35 *
    FF. Steve Mercado Engine 40 *
    FF. Kevin Bracken Engine 40 *
    FF. Vincent Morello Ladder 35
    FF. Michael Roberts Ladder 35 *
    FF. Michael Lynch Engine 40
    FF. Michael Dauria Engine 40

    Charleston 9
    "If my job was easy a cop would be doing it."
    *******************CLICK HERE*****************

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    Glad to see things panned out for you. Never nice to see someone try to profit from anothers pain.


    On a side note:
    My wife bought me "your" book FIREHOUSE. Thank the members in your house for letting us "inside" for a peek and for the honor of getting to know your fallen brothers more then we had before. May time lessen your pain, but may it never fade your great memories of them.

    Fraternally...

    Jay Ellingson
    Laconia FD
    L1153
    Proud to be an American, Union Firefighter!

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    Default Well???

    But I have to do this, I have to do something to let people know what a skell this person is. I wish it did not come to this. THANK YOU. I welcome any and all comments.
    Well, you explained the story but never mentioned the name of the company?
    Chris Shields
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    Haz-Mat Technician
    East Syracuse Fire Dept
    Onondaga County, NY

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    That's great news Ray. I'm really sorry you had to go through it in the first place though. These vultures that make a profit off the victims of September 11th **** me right f'n off. Hopefully you can prevent it from happening again, or at least have the legal stuff in place.
    September 11th - Never Forget

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    Albeit after tha fact AT LEAST the vendor removed it from the inventory/website etc. That anymore in this modern day and age almost takes an act of a JUDGE. While it was certainly TOTALLY WRONG to boot leg the patch, at least they had some dignity and removed it, even if threatened with legal action. Ray, I am sorry that your company had to endure something most of us could only watch on TV that day. I am glad you got closure and although curiosity is killing me I think it was a good idea to leave the vendor unnamed at this time, classy move. Also to all of the others who have posted and stepped in here to offer legal assistance, from one FF to another, THANK YOU for keeping it real !
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
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