1. #1
    IACOJ Agitator
    Adze39's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    In a van down by the CT River!
    Posts
    2,771

    Angry OMG! Elf's need to be squashed!

    Not only do they set fire to places, but check this out. I was reading the story linked off of FH's main page and they had a link to the Earth Liberation Front. I went there to see if they claimed responsibility for the fire in CA. On the ELF main page, the have a guide on "Setting Fires With Electrical Timers - An Earth Liberation Front Guide".

    Something has to be done about these wacko's. They say "In Defense of All Life" yet they put our lives in danger.
    IACOJ Agitator
    Fightin' Da Man Since '78!

  2. #2
    IACOJ Agitator
    Adze39's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    In a van down by the CT River!
    Posts
    2,771

    Default

    Here's the information from a WhoIs lookup on the domain name:


    Thurston, Darren (EARTHLIBERATIONFRONT-DOM)
    NO ORG NAME
    PO Box 78061, 2606 Commercial Drive
    Vancouver, B.C. V5N1G8
    CA
    Domain Name: EARTHLIBERATIONFRONT.COM
    Administrative Contact, Technical Contact:
    Thurston, Darren (DTT61) darren@TAO.CA
    PO Box 78061, 2606 Commercial Drive
    Vancouver BC V5N1G8
    CA
    604-618-5469
    Record expires on 22-Nov-2003.
    Record created on 04-May-2002.
    Database last updated on 4-Aug-2003 14:54:47 EDT.
    Domain servers in listed order:
    DNS.ENVIROWEB.ORG 208.40.195.228
    DNS2.ENVIROWEB.ORG 208.40.195.4
    IACOJ Agitator
    Fightin' Da Man Since '78!

  3. #3
    FIREMAN 1st GRADE
    E40FDNYL35's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 1999
    Location
    Malingering
    Posts
    3,643
    ALL GAVE SOME BUT SOME GAVE ALL
    NEVER FORGET 9-11-01
    343
    CAPT. Frank Callahan Ladder 35 *
    LT. John Ginley Engine 40
    FF. Bruce Gary Engine 40
    FF. Jimmy Giberson Ladder 35
    FF. Michael Otten Ladder 35 *
    FF. Steve Mercado Engine 40 *
    FF. Kevin Bracken Engine 40 *
    FF. Vincent Morello Ladder 35
    FF. Michael Roberts Ladder 35 *
    FF. Michael Lynch Engine 40
    FF. Michael Dauria Engine 40

    Charleston 9
    "If my job was easy a cop would be doing it."
    *******************CLICK HERE*****************

  4. #4
    IACOJ Agitator
    Adze39's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    In a van down by the CT River!
    Posts
    2,771

    Default

    Thanks, E40! In all my rage, I forgot to put a link.
    IACOJ Agitator
    Fightin' Da Man Since '78!

  5. #5
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Flanders, NJ
    Posts
    13,537

    Default

    The Earth Liberation Front is a terrorist organization and they are a menace to society. BUT...

    What they have on their website is protected free speech. I'm wrong?

    Go to the website of a major book retailer and search for the Anarchist's Cookbook, Steal This Book, The Poor Man's James Bond or other similar titles. You will be able to buy them no problem. Should these sites be shut down?

    Better yet, go to your local public library and look for the same books. You are likely to find them. I did. Should the libraries be purged of all objectionable books?

  6. #6
    IACOJ Agitator
    Adze39's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    In a van down by the CT River!
    Posts
    2,771

    Default

    They should be shut down simply because they are a terrorist organization.

    And the question becomes, because that domain is registered outside the US, does/should our "freedom of speech" get extended to non-nationals?
    IACOJ Agitator
    Fightin' Da Man Since '78!

  7. #7
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Flanders, NJ
    Posts
    13,537

    Default

    Originally posted by Adze39
    They should be shut down simply because they are a terrorist organization.

    And the question becomes, because that domain is registered outside the US, does/should our "freedom of speech" get extended to non-nationals?
    OK. Since the US does not control the Internet, how do we shut it down?

    And since we are shutting down a site that is objectionable to us, shouldn't we shut down more of them? Do we limit it to terrorist groups? Because Right to Life will have to go. So will several extreme political organizations. Who is going to compile the list? What are the criteria.

    And if "freedom of speech" is not extended outside the borders of the US, we should then ban International News outlets, newspapers, magazines, etc who are critical of the US and advocate another political ideology.

    And while we are at it, we should probably restrict travel to and from the US so that people with dissenting voices are not allowed to voice their opinions against the US outside the country.

    Hmmmmmmmmmmm. Dangerous road we are travelling here.

  8. #8
    Forum Member
    RescuHoppy7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Owego,NY USA
    Posts
    362

    Default

    Mr. GeorgeWendtCFI What do you suggest we do? Just simply sit around idle and do nothing as these Terrorists described as wanting to protect the environment continue to freely burn down houses and put firefighters at risk, While you may not be able to simply close there site down you should put pressure on the group to remove the guide to setting houses on fire, Last time I checked the top two priorites of Firefighting were life and property and in order to meet these we need to stop groups like ELF.
    NYS FF1/AEMT-CC
    IAEP Local 152
    "You stopped being in charge when I showed up"

  9. #9
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Flanders, NJ
    Posts
    13,537

    Default

    Originally posted by RescuHoppy7
    Mr. GeorgeWendtCFI What do you suggest we do? Just simply sit around idle and do nothing as these Terrorists described as wanting to protect the environment continue to freely burn down houses and put firefighters at risk, While you may not be able to simply close there site down you should put pressure on the group to remove the guide to setting houses on fire, Last time I checked the top two priorites of Firefighting were life and property and in order to meet these we need to stop groups like ELF.
    About two months ago, we had a long discussion here on ELF. I suggest that you go back and search it out and familiarize yourself with the topic.

    To summarize, ELF is not an organized group with a monthly meeting, a president, an annual convention or a world headquarters. They are a clandestine, loosely organized terrorist organization whose operations are carried out by small, sympathetic cell groups. the individuals involved will take credit for the action in the name of the group, but they will do so in an underground manner, usually on the ELF website, or through graffiti at the scene.

    I am well familiar with this group. I have investigated at least one of their fires. They must be dealt with by law enforcement in the fashion that international terrorists are being dealt with. With force, using intelligence and high-tech criminal investigation methods. You will not stop this group be some fuzzy feeling action like shutting off their website. It will be up again in an hour. Besides, there is no legal method to do so.

    The fire service is not charged with the mission of preventing terrorist attacks. What I suggest that you do is leave it up to law enforcement to do their jobs. Did it occur to you that maybe that website actually helps law enforcement keep tabs in these people?

    BTW< nobody seems to want to touch my point about the books.

  10. #10
    Member
    Dushore5741's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    S.C., Penna.
    Posts
    35

    Default

    "Elf's Need to be Squashed"... Until I read on... I thought that maybe that Adze had hit his head or had been splashin the sauce...

    This makes me look at those tiny "patch the elf" characters differently. So does this mean we should tie up all the tiny people and put them in gas station closets? They might be turning against us...

  11. #11
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Just to make all aware terroristic threats are not covered by freedom of speech. I can't say to you "I'm going to kill you or set you on fire" Both would be considered Assault not free speech.

    FTM-PTB

  12. #12
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Flanders, NJ
    Posts
    13,537

    Default

    Originally posted by FFFRED
    Just to make all aware terroristic threats are not covered by freedom of speech. I can't say to you "I'm going to kill you or set you on fire" Both would be considered Assault not free speech.

    FTM-PTB
    They wouldn't be considered assault, but they wouldn't be protected either. However...

    The objectionable content here is a manual on how to set fires. There are no direct threats associated with the manual, or the entire website for that matter.

  13. #13
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    George,
    I think there are a number of statements on the site that could be argued as terroristic threats. Plus I'm also thinking that a creative Proscecutor could use the RICO statutes to prosecute any members of the ELF. What do you think George?

    FTM-PTB

  14. #14
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Flanders, NJ
    Posts
    13,537

    Default

    Which ones?

    To be considered a "terroristic threat", the threat must be specific: specific person, specific action. The person threatened must also believe that there is an immediate danger that the threat will be carried out. I don't find one threat on the website.

    I do believe that the RICO statutes are very helpful in prosecuting terrorist organizations, when the hierarchy of the organization can be identified and the actions of the group can be linked together. To date, law enforcement has not developed this information.

  15. #15
    MembersZone Subscriber
    fallujahff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Eastern Shore, Va.
    Posts
    337

    Default Familiar......

    Hey didn't we discuss this a couple of months ago?

    There was a pretty lengthy thread for more information---

    Stay safe--
    "When you are safe at home, you wish you were having an adventure-when you're having an adventure, you wish you were safe at home"

    --Thornton Wilder

  16. #16
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Flanders, NJ
    Posts
    13,537

    Default

    From the Anti-Defamation League website
    ____________________________________________

    Radical Environmentalist Group suspected in San Diego Arson


    Posted: August 8, 2003
    The Earth Liberation Front (ELF), the most active radical environmentalist group in the United States, is suspected of burning down a housing complex under construction in San Diego, California, on August 1, 2003. If true, it will be the most costly ecoterrorist attack ever in the U.S.

    The blaze, which officials estimate caused around $50 million in damage, destroyed a five-story building and brought down a 100-foot-high crane. The heat from the fire was so severe that window blinds melted in apartments 500 feet away. About 400 residents were evacuated from nearby apartment buildings.

    Twenty law enforcement agencies are investigating the arson, including the FBI and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. Captain Jeff Carle, spokesman for the San Diego Metro Arson Strike Team, said the fire was not an accident. "Someone, some persons came onto this site and set a fire with the intent to burn it to the ground," Carle said.

    A 12-foot banner reading "If you build it, we will burn it," along with the initials ELF, was found at the scene. The San Diego Union-Tribune also reported receiving an e-mail from the group saying the banner "is a legitimate claim of responsibility by the Earth Liberation Front."

    ELF cells have claimed responsibility for burning several luxury homes and housing developments across the county in recent months. On June 3, 2003, a fire was set at the Sterling Oaks Development in Chico, California. Graffiti reading "Save Our Bio Region ELF" was left at the scene.

    On June 4, two houses under construction were burned in Washington Township, Michigan. Graffiti spray-painted on nearby construction equipment read "ELF" and "stop sprawl." On March 21, 2003, two homes under construction were set on fire in Washtenaw County's Superior Township near Ann Arbor, Michigan. The garage door of a nearby house was vandalized with spray paint reading, "ELF, no sprawl."

    ELF has claimed responsibility for actions against what they perceive as the evils of urban sprawl for several years. In December 2000, ELF set fire to a condominium under construction in Long Island, New York. ELF said the homes were "future dens of the wealthy elite" and announced "an unbounded war on urban sprawl."

    In 1998, ELF claimed responsibility for the arson of a Vail, Colorado, ski resort that caused $12 million in damage, the costliest act of eco-terrorism in American history at the time.
    -----------------------------------------------

    This is criminal activity. But as you can see, this action will be very difficult totie to specific persons.

  17. #17
    Forum Member
    ThNozzleman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Jefferson City, TN
    Posts
    4,334

    Default

    I wonder why ELF activists don't burn their own houses and cars down. Do you think someone should inform them of the deadly emmissions they are releasing every time they burn something? Has the Green Party been advised of this terrible practice of wanton pollution?

  18. #18
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,682

    Default

    They are against, in a way, cutting down trees to make lumber to build these houses/buildings/etc. So, once the trees are cut and made into lumber, and the lumber is used to build a house, they burn the house, which then leads to more trees being cut down to make lumber to rebuild the house. Yup, sounds like a sound idea to me.

  19. #19
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    177

    Default

    I believe a law just went into effect or will soon that makes it illegal to post articles on how to make a bomb.

  20. #20
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Flanders, NJ
    Posts
    13,537

    Default

    Originally posted by engine23ccvfd
    I believe a law just went into effect or will soon that makes it illegal to post articles on how to make a bomb.
    Please cite the law and the legislative body that is pursuiing it.

  21. #21
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Duffman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Chicago area
    Posts
    780

    Default

    George, once again I find myself in total agreement with you. Thanks for explaining why ELF is no different than the klan, the arayan nation or the boy scouts for that matter. Like it or not they have rights.

    Being a moron has never been against the law.
    "We shouldn't be opening firehouses in Baghdad and closing them in New York City."

    IACOJ

  22. #22
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 1999
    Location
    MA
    Posts
    1,744

    Default

    Being a moron has never been against the law.
    As a matter of fact, it keeps us in business!

  23. #23
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    177

    Default

    In August 1999, Congress took steps to curb the availability of bomb-making recipes on the Internet. But 18 months later, the instructions are still there and teenagers, among others, are still clicking onto them to make and later detonate bombs. The law has been a dud.

    Federal prosecutors have yet to record a single prosecution under the statute -- which mandates up to 20 years in prison for anyone who distributes bomb-making material knowing or intending that the information be used for a crime.

    Websites, chat rooms and online bulletin boards containing instructions for making bombs continue to flourish.

    Thomas Warren, the supervisory agent of the FBI's Bomb Data Center, says the agency doesn't even bother to monitor bomb-making websites.

    Police say that showing criminal intent -- especially before any crime has been committed -- is all but impossible.
    A group of bombing victims and others are trying to persuade Internet companies to crack down on the instructional material.

    Source: David Armstrong, "Bomb Recipes Flourish Online Despite New Law," Wall Street Journal, January 18, 2001.

    http://www.ncpa.org/pi/crime/pd011801d.html

  24. #24
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Flanders, NJ
    Posts
    13,537

    Default

    Here's a better article:

    January 2001 Freedom of Speech: Bomb Recipes Flourish Online Despite New Law

    Students at Socorro High School in New Mexico were settling into their chairs for the start of second period last March when an explosion ripped apart a locker and hurled shrapnel through a hallway, piercing the ceiling and walls.

    Arrested for igniting the bomb, four students told investigators they didn't design it on their own: They relied on instructions found on the Internet.

    They weren't the first to use the Internet for explosives research, but their timing was significant. Like a number of other teenagers over the last year, the New Mexico students built their device well after the August 1999 passage of a federal law designed to curb the availability of bomb-making recipes on the Web.

    In short, the law has been a dud. Federal prosecutors have yet to record a single prosecution under the statute, which mandates up to 20 years in prison for anyone who distributes bombmaking material knowing or intending that the information will be used for a crime. Web sites, chat rooms and online bulletin boards containing instructions for bombs continue to flourish.

    Last March, four Kent City, Mich., teens were sentenced to probation after they built two bombs from Internet instructions and tossed them into the yard of a man who had accused them of destroying his mailbox. The explosions, which made a small hole in the yard, awoke residents up to a mile away, police said.

    In October, a Santa Ana, Calif., sophomore was arrested at school after police found in his back-pack a pipe bomb constructed with instructions found on the Internet. A 15-year-old Delta, Colo., boy was arrested in November after police said he used a school computer to download bomb instructions. Bomb parts and fragments of exploded bombs were found at his house, and a teacher discovered a document on a school computer that discussed 'getting revenge on teachers and principals.'

    Bombs on the Web were in the public eye again when it was discovered that Michael McDermott, the man accused of shooting to death seven co-workers at a Wakefield, Mass., high-tech company in late December, participated in an Internet discussion group focused on explosives. Although Mr. McDermott offered mostly technical advice on the forum, a few talked of violence.

    Disparate groups have been demanding more controls on the Internet, including bans on the promotion of Nazi and Ku Klux Klan memorabilia. But the failed attempt to curb bomb-making tutorials show how difficult Internet regulation can be.

    Congress jumped into the controversy after the Columbine High School massacre in Colorado, whose student perpetrators carried bombs built from Web-based instnuctions. The legislation that was adopted was championed by Sen. Dianne Feinstein, a California Democrat who said then that the measure 'would limit the availability of the bomb manuals online.' Sen. Feinstein now acknowledges it hasn't, yet she adds in an interview that it is too early to call the law a failure.

    At the recommendation of the Department of Justice, the Feinstein bill was drafted narrowly to avoid transgressing free-speech rights under the First Amendment. The wording may pass constitutional muster, but it also has served to dissuade prosecution of those who post bomb instructions. Intervention would do the most good before any planned violence. But police say showing criminal intent--especially before any crime has been committed--is all but impossible.

    Thomas Warren, the supervisory agent in charge of the FBI's Bomb Data Center, says 'a lot of information on the Net has been used to build devices,' but the FBI doesn't even monitor such sites. A spokesman adds that since postings by themselves are not criminal, unless it can be proven that the authors intended them to be used in the commission of a crime, the FBI reasons it would find nothing to prosecute.

    Before the Internet, bomb-making material was available through specialty publishing houses, some engineering textbooks and other material available in college libraries and the Library of Congress. Much of the Web information is taken from printed manuals such as 'The Anarchist Cookbook.' But the Internet makes obtaining bomb recipes much quicker and easier.

    Disappointed with the legislative attack, a group of bomb victims and others are trying to persuade Internet companies to crack down. The group includes Gary Wright, a Utah computer programmer who was injured when he picked up a mail bomb made by Unabomber Theodore J. Kaczynski; the mother of an Oklahoma City bombing victim; and Mr. Kaczynski's brother David.

    But so far, calls and letters to Yahoo! Inc., AOL Time Warner Inc., Microsoft Corp. and Walt Disney Co., which is part owner of the online Go Network, have yielded disappointing results, Mr. Wright says. The companies generally decline to do any active monitoring, though several do say they prohibit the posting of hateful or violent material and delete offending material when it is found after complaints.

    'It is a really fine line for us to walk to make a subjective call to determine when content violates (our) terms of service,' says Srinija Srinivasan, editor in chief of Yahoo's Web portal. AOL spokesman Nicholas J. Graham says bomb-making material is not allowed on AOL sites but that policing content for such information is difficult because of the large number of users and the constant addition of new material.

    Max Pages, a free service offered by Max Software Consultants Inc. that allows users to create Web sites, hosts several home pages filled with bomb instructions. The service warns users it won't allow Web sites to contain anything 'dishonest, pornographic, illegal, hateful, vulgar, violent disreputable, or distasteful.'

    William MacLeod, president of the Towson Md., company, says that under this policy, sites with bomb instructions have been removed frequently, but as soon as one site is deleted, another appears, often created by the same person under a different name. 'It is a relentless battle for us,' he complains.

    It was on a site hosted by Max Pages that 18-year-old Ben Villa and his friends found the instructions to build the bomb used at Socorro High School, federal agents say. The four teens used the search word 'anarchy' on a home computer.

    'There was like hundreds of recipes,' Mr. Villa says in an interview. As instructed by the site, the four teens built a bomb using an empty shell, gunpowder from bullets and a cannon fuse.

    Mr. Villa said he and his friends had no idea how powerful the bomb would be and never intended to harm anyone. Police say that if the hallway had been filled with students when the bomb exploded, there would have been serious injuries.

    Mr. Villa faces up to 10 years in prison after pleading guilty in federal court to possessing an unregistered destructive device and aiding and abetting the commission of a felony. His three friends were charged as juveniles in state court. 'These are really dangerous sites,' Mr. Villa says. 'I am a convicted felon,' he adds, but 'I'm not a troublemaker or anything. I'm just a regular kid'" (David Armstrong, The Wall Street Journal, January 18, 2001).

  25. #25
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Flanders, NJ
    Posts
    13,537

    Default

    Focusing on clandestine sites on the Internet is stupid. I just did a ten-minute search on Amazon.com and bn.com. Here are some of the titles I found.

    Poor Man's James Bond
    Anarchist Cookbook
    Steal This Book
    Complete Guide to Dirty Tricks
    Home Workshop Explosives
    Tnroduction to the Technology of Explosives
    Chemistry of Explosives
    Armed and Dangerous; A Writer's Guide to Weapons

    Videos include:

    Pickett's primer on Explsoves
    Commercial Explosives
    Terrorist Weapons and Explosives
    Deadly Explsovies; How and Why They Work

    There are dozens more. Each of these sources contain the same instructions you will find on the Internet. Where do you think they got them? I guarantee that if you search your local library system, you will find at least one of these books. College and University libraries probably have them all. These books are no secret. Some of them have been around for 30 years! Do we close all the bookstores and libraries? That is the reason there has never been and never will be a prosecution on that stupid law.

    The focus should be on the behavior! Bombs and improvised explosive devices are illegal. People were building them long before the Internet and it was still illegal.

    It is the price we pay for living in a free society.
    Last edited by GeorgeWendtCFI; 08-15-2003 at 01:50 PM.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register