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    Default Air Crash/Rescue

    Well, going with the whole "lets help train the juniors and explorers" thing, I'll post my own unique training thread. How much do any of you know about airport rescue and firefighting (ARFF)? Probably not much, and you aren't expected to know much if anything about it to be a structural firefighter. (Hence the different courses) But I believe that everyone should at least be aware of it, considering the growing amount of air show accidents, commercial plane crashes, etc. Obviously, vollie and most career departments won't have the necessary equipment to deal with an ARFF situation, but, if you have just a little training, you'll be able to make a difference. So, I ask of all you guys, who is interested in learning some stuff about aircraft rescue and firefighting?

    Stay safe!

    Matt

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    Sure! There is always room to learn more.
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    I too am interested. Occasionaly they offer an ARFF class at a local fire school here. Next time they have it I am going to take it. I have even considered going into the Air Force as a firefighter but that most likely will not happen.
    These opinions are my own, not of my company or my affiliates

    2 in, 2 Out, Pass on, Collar up, SHOW TIME!

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    Don't know much about the firefighting aspect of aircraft crashes, but I've got a wealth of knowledge somewhere in this brain o' mine about pretty much anything else having to do with crashes. Most of the stuff I deal with is small aircraft dropping off into the side of a mountain, etc... so we don't usually have much fire to deal with by the time we get there. We do, however, sometimes call upon the local FD's for use of their extrication tools. Unlike airport rescue, we get to deal with planes/ helos that got all mangled in the trees as they came down or are embedded into rocks .

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    I'm very interested in ARFF. My department has crash trucks at two airports; Miami International Airport and Opa-Locka. Given the chance, I would definitely ride at the Airport... however due to security constraints its probably more trouble then its worth. I used to ride on a truck just south of MIA, and we would run into the airport quite a bit on EMS calls... just that in itself is a unique experience.

    If I'm ever lucky enough to get hired on my dept, I would definitely go for my ARFF certification, as well as HazMat Tech.
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    Please, englighten me.
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    OK, lets start out like the other forums start. I'll ask you a question, which you may or may not know, research it, whatever, find out the answer, and post it here.

    1. What is considered the "rescue side" and "off rescue side" of an aircraft, and why?

    2. What is AFFF and why do we use it for aircraft firefighting?

    3. Where would you find possible Class D fires on all aircraft?

    Happy hunting and stay safe!

    Matt

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    Hey Armyfirerescue can I play?

    FyredUp

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    Armyfirerescue....can I tag in? I have taken ARFF Training, although it has been 3 years since my training.

    Let's see if I can remember: rescue side, side with no flame/smoke etc... which is going to be the side that your passengers will be leaving from? You will be pushing the fire away from this exit, in order to facilitate rescue(ie foam blanket) Off rescue would be smoke and flame showing.

    AFFF-Aqueous Film Forming Foam good thick blanketing foam, keeps JetA fumes at bay. Doesn't break down quickly and it doesn't allow the wick affect to happen, if you are standing in a pool of fuel.

    Class D Fire - Caught me off guard for a second but then the first thing that popped into my mind was Brakes?

    Did I pass? Good to go over that stuff, my hall responds to the airport as support.

    Stay safe, come home safe.

    Red

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    I think Class D has to do with magnesium fires, particularly magnesium engine blocks on cars. i don't remember which car used it (it was a while ago when i learned this), but it was pretty much how you weren't able to put water on them because a really bad (yet really cool visual from what i've been told) chemical reaaction occurs.

    using that line of thinking, maybe in the jet engines of the planes? just a guess
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

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    fyredup - Feel free to jump in at any time, this thread is for everybody.

    fieryred943 - You are partially correct on the "rescue side, off rescue side" part, the way I learned it, was the rescue side was the side of the aircraft with your main entry door (usually the left side of the aircraft if you're looking at it head on). And your off rescue side was the side that didn't have a main exit door, but had emergency exits. Obviously, what you said is correct, about not pushing the fire over to the other side, and you would have to adjust your plan accordingly. You are completely correct on the AFFF and where you would find a class D fire on an aircraft. Brakes, sometimes, wheels, almost always! Some aircraft, especially fighter aircraft, you will find magnesium all over the plane. You passed. hehe.

    DrParasite - You are correct with the magnesium engine block comment. Old VW Beetles had magnesium engine components, made fighting a car fire a whole lot more fun! Yeah, you never want to put water on a class D fire, especially magnesium, all you do is cause a huge shower of sparks, big light show, and spread the fire. That said, you'd use a purple K extinguisher.

    Next set of questions...

    1. Explain the shutdown procedures for an aircraft, in order, and explain why they are in that order.

    2. What are the areas of the aircraft that should be avoided at all times by fire/rescue personnel? (and everyone, for that matter)

    Happy hunting, and stay safe!

    Matt

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    Hey, finally my training is worth something!!
    In Melbourne Int`l Airport, we had a squadron of F-16s from Belgium I belive, and they were, for the most part, under our Firefighting jurisdiction. I cant ride at the Airport, but the Truck responds to the airport for major events so I tagged along. Man we learned some cool stuff that day. How to open the cockpit from outside, were to approach from and not die or have your n*ts fried by the radar. It was a pretty good learning experience for a couple of hours. If anyone wants more info, just say something on here and Ill come back, but im at the station and my shift is starting.
    AJ, MICP, FireMedic
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    [i]
    Next set of questions...

    1. Explain the shutdown procedures for an aircraft, in order, and explain why they are in that order.

    2. What are the areas of the aircraft that should be avoided at all times by fire/rescue personnel? (and everyone, for that matter)

    Happy hunting, and stay safe!

    Matt [/B]
    I think I got #2... Engine Intake areas . Props, jets, whatever creates thrust can cause serious problems if ya get too close. When I was really into flying as a kid in CAP, we were always warned not to wear hats, etc on the flightline to prevent stuff from getting sucked into places it shouldn't be.

    Hey, can someone grab me a bucket of propwash and 100' of flightline?

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    Originally posted by Armyfirerescue
    Yeah, you never want to put water on a class D fire, especially magnesium, all you do is cause a huge shower of sparks, big light show, and spread the fire. That said, you'd use a purple K extinguisher.
    Matt
    I thought PK was used primarily for dimensional Class B fires. The Purple K agent is superior to other dry chemicals in extinguishing oil, gas, and chemical fires. The one we carry is only rated BC atleast. I searched for a Class D PK extinguisher at google.com and could not locate one.

    So I guess I'm stumped... do you use standard PK (potassium bicarbonate), one of the standard Class D extinguishers (copper, sodium chloride, etc), or is there a special PK extinguisher for Class D fires?
    Last edited by Resq14; 08-10-2003 at 12:33 PM.
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    Okay first set of questions...

    1) facing the front of the plane the right side is the rescue side. All main passenger entry doors as well as cargo doors are on that side.

    2) Aqueous film forming foam. It is a class b foam. we used it at 3% on our crash rigs.

    3) Hot brakes are the cause of the class d fire. Magnesium wheels. This problem is particularly evident in large frame aircraft without thrust reversers.

    Second set of questions...

    1) It has been a while since I shut down an aircraft. I am no longer a CFR FF. It seems to me, relaease the friction locks on the throttles, move the throttle controls to the off position, you had to pull up to get past the dedent to shut them off. The sequence I don't remember. It was either both outside engines, then both inside or vice versa. The reason for shutting down the same engine simultaneously on each wing was so the aircraft didn't try to spin becvause of thrust from one side.

    2) The intake side and of course the exhaust side of any running jet engine. The intake side to avoid injestion and the exhaust side to avoid burn injuries. The propeller side of a running prop engine to avoid being chopped up, ala Raiders of the Lost Ark. And the exhaust side to avoid burn injuries.

    Another place to avoid is the wheels during hot breaks. This is incase the wheels come apart due to the heat or the tires explode.

    Just a comment on the purple K for a magnesium fire. The right choice is a class d extinguisher such as metal X or similar. Generally a purple K extinguisher has little or no effect on metal fires.

    This is fun, it is making me remember some of my CFR training when I was a civilian firefighteer on an ANG base.

    MORE QUESTIONS PLEASE!!

    FyredUp

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    Exclamation

    Class D fires require a dry powder extinguisher that uses a chemical that is specific for the type of metal that is burning.

    Class D extinguishers are easily recognized due to their color: bright yellow. They can also be marked with a star that has the letter D in the middle of it.

    The reason that you get "fireworks" from a magnesium fire upon the application of water is that magnesium burns at such a high temperature that it actually splits the water molecule into its component atoms: hydrogen, which is highly flammable, and oxygen, which aids in combustion!

    Magnesium is a very strong, lightweight metal that is used extensively in the compressor blades and housings of jet engines.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Hmmm shut down procedure for an airplane....Well when we did entry for airplanes it was over the wing exit. Up through the isle an into the cockpit to shut off the main power. Off the top of my head I think the main throttle was the switch to worry about. As far as shut down...just from flying experience. The plane comes to a stop, engines are cut, brakes should be full on, power is switched from plane to ground.(ie planes are grounded when they come into the gates) and then ground crews chock wheels and can start unloading/refueling etc.....

    As far as things to stay away from.... unless the plane is grounded stay away...the amount of static electricity they generate is huge. There is a radius for engines if they are running...specially jets. Most engines are shut down, but you still need to be careful. The intakes will pick you up and shred you just as fast. The radar is another place to stay away from. And there is one spot on the plane that gets super hot, in the nose area???? The wheels would be a place to stay away from as well, the likelyhood of the hydraulics failing is probably minimal but if she lets go it won't be a pretty picture. Basically if you are not trained in the area you are standing, you shouldn't be there.

    I am just throwing things off the top of my head Armyrescue, just to get the brain working again. Are we talking commercial or military planes? My personal faves are the harriers and apaches. Not bad for a gal huh!

    Stay safe, come home soon

    Red

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    My sincere apologies to all, I made an honest mistake. I meant metal x when I said purple K, forgive me, I screwed up.

    All of you got the whole "areas to stay away from" part correct. Always keep a good distance away from the intake and exhaust of jet engines, the props, main rotor and especially the tail rotor of rotary wing aircraft (helos). You also need to be aware of the radar on the aircraft, usually in the nose cone area, usually the radar is turned off as soon as the aircraft touches down, but then again, we're not thinking "normal situation" here. Tires blowing with hot brakes, wheels coming apart, all these things you need to be aware of as well. The "super hot" thing that fieryred943 was talking about is called a pitot tube. Aircraft have these in all kinds of places, but usually they are out of arms reach (at least on large-frame aircraft) Fighters are a different story, their pitot tubes are practically stabbing you in the eye. If we're talking about military aircraft, the only other thing you have to worry about is armament. Some of these aircraft have some heavy-duty weapons on board. An example I can give is the AH-64 Apache attack helicopter. This bad boy has a 30mm (I think it's a 30mm, could be wrong) chain gun mounted under the cockpit, it aims with the gunner's vision. Meaning, wherever the gunner looks, that gun looks too. Meaning, if he looks at you, that big gun is staring you in the face as well. Also, if you aren't using an intrinsically(sp?) safe radio, you can arm weapons when you key your mic. One other hazard is countermeasures (flares). We are always getting calls for brush fires at the end of the runway because a C-130 dropped flares. These things burn at well over 1000 degrees, and automatically deploy if there is a radar lock. I have heard stories of a DOD police officer pointing a radar gun at a jet, and having countermeasures deploy, can't verify it, but thought it would be nice to mention.

    The shutdown procedures part is screwing a few of you up though. You guys are all on the right track with the engines and all. Problem is, some of you are thinking in terms of a pilot, or a normal landing. We wouldn't be shutting down the aircraft if it was a normal landing, only reason we'd be shutting it down would be if the pilots were incapacitated, and obviously, that is an emergency. The correct sequence is "throttle, bottle, battery". The reasoning for this is as follows; you throttle down the aircraft for obvious reasons, you need to shut the engines down, and it lessens the chance of a crazed passenger (or ff) running in front of the jet engines and getting sucked in. Next is to pull the fire bottles, this automatically cuts all fuel to the engines, and releases a chemical fire suppressant directly into the engines. Some of these systems are tricky though, and you'd need some extensive aircraft familiarization in order to understand it completely. Some systems will only shoot the chemical into the engine you select, some will shoot it into all engines, most only have one bottle, and if you only select one engine, it will dispense all the chemical into that one engine, and if you had a fire in another engine, you'd be SOL. Anyway, then you kill the battery, usually with the battery switch in the cockpit, depending on the type of aircraft, you'd also disconnect the battery directly (usually a quarter turn quick-disconnect). The reasoning behind the battery being last, is that you need power to the fire bottles in order for them to fire, no power, no fire suppression. You need to make sure some of your more aggressive firefighters know that, and don't try to kill the battery right away.

    Whew, that was alot of typing. I'll think of some questions later on, till then, stay safe!

    Matt

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    Our class D extinguisher is red and never been used. We just had a Ford 13passenger van fire 2 weeks ago that had a magnesium block under the steering wheel area. We used foam at 3% to smother it. Only got the light show when the hose hit it before the foam was started. And yes, it is an impressive light show.

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