1. #1
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    Question Quint/Ladder & Single vs. Tandem Axle!?!

    My department has started to look for a single axle, aproximatly 75 foot ladder, Quint type apparatus. We are looking for suggestions on what we should possibly put on or not, manufacturer, pros, cons, etc. Anything that you might think we should know. Any "extras" you might have put on the apparatus that you like/dislike. Any information will be appreciated and will help us greatly! Thank you for your time!
    Last edited by fireresq30637; 08-18-2003 at 06:13 PM.

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    I just got back from seagrave today after looking at the 75 foot quint my career FD is getting.

    Here is my list of suggestions for you:

    1) Before you look at who is going to build it, figure out exactly how it will operate and what will go on it for equipment. Is it going to run as an engine with a stick? Or a ladder with a pump? Have the equipment that you will place on this rig picked out and try to configure the compartment space to fit what you want to carry.

    2) Don't be forced into buying some cookie cutter truck that you don't really want because that's all that manufactirer builds.

    3) Physically travel to neighboring FD's and see what they have done. Maybe you will see something you never even thought of.

    4) Spec flows, at whatever is an acceptable friction loss to you, for the preconnects, not pipe size.

    5) Front facing jump seats.

    6) Head sets for the entire crew. They can listen to the radio on the way to the call, or use the intercom feature to communicate more clearly in the rig. Not only does this allow for better communications it puts everyone in hearing protection automatically.

    7) If you don't listen to a single other thing I wrote here listen to this one. Make sure you can load the hose bed without having to use a tool or pike pole or whatever to feed hose up a chute. The more the hosebed is like a hose bed on an engine the better.

    8) Mount tools that are used the most in the most easily accessible areas. If anything is mounted in the cab use the NFPA approved restaints.

    Good luck, I am perhaps a little biased but man am I loving the way our new Seagrave is going together.

    FyredUp

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    FyredUp, Thanks for taking the time for this information! You brought up a very valid point that I had not even thought of. My career FD runs a 100 ft. stick that has that painful hose chute you were speaking of! Thanks again.
    Last edited by fireresq30637; 08-09-2003 at 11:47 PM.

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    Depending on your location, is a 75' going to last 5 years? 10 years? Before 75' isn't enough stick to be effective. In most suburban areas in this country, taller and taller buildings keep showing up. Even if they aren't tall, most sit back from any accessible areas farther than normal. For a relatively minor cost difference, a 100' stick will will be more useful over the 20 year life of the truck.

    The biggest complaint I've heard from anyone with a 75' single axle, is that the chassis is damn near at weight limit with no water, tools, or people. Regardless of manufacturer, that is. I've heard it from people who run E-One, Pierce, Seagraves, ALF, KME. If you are truly going to load for bear and make it a Truck Co. with a pump, go tandem so you don't run into chassis problems in the future. And so you can make sure you don't run 6' short on a rescue from an apartment balcony. Pucker factor goes up big time when lives are on the line and you've got to reposition, or worse, you can't reposition because lines have been pulled and the truck is blocked in by 2nd due.

    Other than that, FyredUp hit all of the big bullet items, and the little bullet items don't show up until you get past the big ones so don't worry about that yet. Follow the process he lined out and you can't spec a bad truck.

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    We picked up a 75 foot Quint from Pierce a little over a year ago. It's an excellent truck. We went with a dual rear axle because the single axle was too close to maximum GVW that Pierce was hedgy about building it. The total truck is 41 feet long, but rides like a dream. The 500hp Cummings gives it enough power that it doesn't even hiccup when running all lines out, and pumping off the ladder master stream. But I agree with the other comments. Figure out what you want to put it in it and how you plan to use it, then design the truck to fit your needs. Seeing other people's trucks is a great way to see what could work for you and what may not. If you want, I can get some digital pics and some more specs for you off of ours and e-mail them to you.

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    Whether or not you need a tandem axle is directly related to the expected usage of the truck. If it is fact expected to function as a full quint company and carry a full compliment of truck equipment as well as a full compliment of engine equipment, then maybe that is the choice. If it really going to be a ladder with a pump, or an engine with a stick then the weight consideration may not call for the tandems. The other factor is where is this truck going to operate? Do the roads allow for the less manueverable larger tandem axle vehicle.

    As far as the need for a 100 foot ladder...maybe, maybe not. Building height is one factor, setback from the road is another. On my volly department a 75 foot ladder would be sufficient for at least 20 years. There is little possibility of large multi-story buildings being built here. Only fireresq30637 can answer what their local needs are. Going to a 100 foot ladder means going to a bigger chassis. That may cost them the ability to get the truck to where they need it.

    FyredUp

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    FyredUp, I think for the mobility that you are speaking of is one of the reasons for the department's decision for the single axle and 75 foot. The department does not see the need for a "full blown ladder" at this point, however there are alot more projected industries to our jurisdiction. We have alot of industry in our locality however, I do think this truck will be used as an engine with a stick more than a true truck company thus said, I don't think the weight problem is too much of an issue. (BC79er)-I do think that we should look more into a 100 foot stick yet I have to go with what the department says (plus we can't forget about the almighty dollar or should we say lack there of) anyhow I plan on taking the information from this forum back and forth to the truck committee meetings so I might need some more suggestions here and there from everyone! Ranger1141 you can e-mail me at bhollins273@hotmail.com and subject the e-mail your FH screen name, fiertruck (or just something to catch my attention so I don't delete it). Hey FyredUp and Ranger1141...what type/height buildings do you guys run in your area? Did your Dept. go with a Quint for mobility, size, what? Thanks Again!

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    In my career FD we have currently 2 ladders and a quint. The new quint is replacing an engine and a ladder. And, no, we are not happy about that. It will run primarily as an engine with a stick and some truck equipment. First out in its first due area. Our first quint, a 75 foot tandem axle will go into the house that currently has an engine and a truck.

    We run the full gament of single family dwellings, to major industrial, to a major multi-story multi-building medical complex, to schools, major merchantile centers to include a huge mall, elderly housing/nursing homes, apartment buildings, if its out there we probably have it for buildings.

    The one straight ladder we are keeping is a 105 footer, both quints will be 75 foot.

    The new one was bought really as an engine with a stick. Manueverability was a primary concern. The first one was bought to try and be both, a full ladder and a full engine. Many lessons learned and thus the change in style for us.

    FyredUp

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    we went with the Quint because we wanted a engine-ladder that could stand alone if needed until mutual aid gets there if we can't fill a second engine right away. We are a strictly volunteer department and on week days we can be lucky to get 8 people to show up for a call some times. It has 450 gallons of water with 50 gallons of Class A foam. It has two 1-3/4" cross-lays, along with two 2-1/2" cross-lays. We carry 100ft. of 1-3/4" in our front bumber and a large amount of 2-1/2" with a master stream in the main hosebed. We've gone complete with LDH for fills on all of our equipment. We carry extrication equipment on our engine-ladder as well. Our SOPs are the engine-ladder is the first out for structure fires in the village with our other engine being the second one out, followed by our heavy rescue truck. Our buildings are 2 story residential and commercial. The tallest building is an old feed mill along the railroad tracks. We do get called mutual aid on occassion to other towns that have 3 story and some 4 story buildings as well. The 75 foot stick allows us to reach the second story windows and roofs while keeping our truck out of the collapse zone. The truck is 41 feet long, but has really good handling and a very tight turning radius for that sized truck. I do have to admit, that for a town of a little over 2000, we're are sitting very flush with equipment and my hat is off to our chief for getting set up so well. I'll get you the pictures as soon as I can.

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    ranger1141...

    Bring your quint into the environment of the city with cars parked both sides of the street and barely more than a single lane and see how well you fare with it. Let alone trying to turn on those same streets. Sometimes the amount of equipment you carry on a particular rig gets sacrificed to allow the rig to be of a size to allow it to manuever in its response area.

    Again if what you have works well for you guys terrific, but like every other piece of fire apparatrus one size does not fit all.

    FyredUp

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    FyredUp

    I never said that this truck was a one size fits all. If that was the impression you got from what I was saying, I'm sorry but you're mistaken. The question was asked why we went with a Quint and that was the question I was answering. I was trying to give fireresq30637 some ideas of what worked for us. Obviously what works for us and our needs does not match everyone elses. But if someone can take parts of what works for us, and use them, then great. If it doesn't meet their needs then by all means, they should not copy our truck. The type of ladder that you use in the city would not come close to meeting our needs. So we didn't go with that kind of set up. We got what worked for us.

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    Ranger1141...

    Sorry if my post sounded like I was coming at you. I reread and it does seem that way. All I meant to say was this, every FD needs to look at their particular needs and what works for some may not work for others.

    Again sorry for coming at you.

    FyredUp
    Last edited by FyredUp; 08-11-2003 at 01:02 AM.

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    not a problem FyredUp.

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    I think the spec process to buy a single axle quint is much more difficult than a double, as you'll need to make lots of cuts to keep the truck under GVWR. When the truck arrives you will not be able to put very much extra onto it w/o going over weight.

    I would highly recomend you look at a twin screw truck before writing them off. We have a 2001 E-One Tower with a 95' stick and an overall length of 43 feet that will out turn our 1985 pumper. If you go with a Pierce All-Steer you get even better turning radius. I've seen a number of single axle quints that if the state police ever weighed it the FD would be in trouble. Calculate the weight of everything you are going to carry before you commit.

    Storage space is another tight issue (pun intended). In the above mentioned tower the pump and tank take up a huge amount of space that would be otherwise available for gear.

    If all you are looking for is an elevated master stream, there are several devices on the market which are much cheaper than a full stick and much lighter too. If you run the truck as an engine you'll almost never park the truck such that you can use the ladder (too close, blocked by trees or wires, too far) so why even carry it (unless you are also going after an ISO rating improvment).

    If all you are looking for is an elevated master stream, there are several devices on the market which are much cheaper than a full stick and much lighter too. If you run the truck as an engine you'll almost never park the truck such that you can use the ladder (too close, blocked by trees or wires, too far) so why even carry it (unless you are also going after an ISO rating improvment).

    Good Luck!
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    Our new Engine will be here in about 4 weeks. I really like how we spec'd ours out. A couple of things we did that might help:

    If possible get the Engineers together to design the specs. We were given complete freedom to design the truck with only a few requirements: Stay under $500,000, must have an elevated master stream, and a 1750 GPM pump, and under 11'3" total height. Well because us engineers designed it and got exactly what we asked for, I am almost positive it will be what we need and it will be better taken care of. Since the drivers put a lot of time in the spec process and consider this their baby.

    Some things we put in was "Rino-Lining" of all compartments and wheel wells to prevent rust from all our winter road salt; the Telma driveline braking system, "Tac-4" front end suspension, Cab designed specifically to run as a Rescue (ALS) engine - not a transport engine. All seats are air-ride, and the seat-mounted airpacks are set back deeper so as to prevent the constant stabbing of a regulator in your back.

    Well now I'm just rambling. If you couldn't tell from the "Tac-4" we went with a Pierce Lance with a 60' stick and the "T" 500 gallon water tank, which allowed us to lower the hose beds significantly. The truck is plumbed for Class A or Class B foam to every discharge. We are excited to get it here.

    A couple of other trucks we looked and and liked if you are considering the 75' quint and need the single axle. About the only one we have seen that weight is not an issue is Sutphen. They aren't much to look at, but we got great feedback from departments who have the newer models. We have the Pierce 75' Quint on the Quantum chasis. It would sure be nice to have more hose, more water, about the same compartmentation on a chasis with a wheel base about the same as our engines.

    Well good luck. If you would like more information on the features we put in our rig, send me a line.
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    Hey BlackJack, I like the Rhino lining, will bring that up at the next new truck committee meeting.

    Where are you? Is the Telma one of the electric "Jake" brakes? We considered one, but have heard they don't mix well with road salt, went with a traditional Jake instead.

    I'd love to hear from you again, what you think about the truck once you get it (lets see, you said it would be delivered in 4 weeks, that's manufacturer time, in fire fighter time you should have it by December 23rd ). and again in 6 months. We were very happy with the specs of our new tower and rescue pumper, and for the most part with the trucks themsleves, but there are things which might be done differently next time.

    Which brings me to a great point, I read this in one of the fire magazines and think it is a great idea: The time to spec out your next truck is right after you get the newest one. As you walk around the truck you'll find yourself saying "Damn, we should have said to do this..." over and over. Spend a couple of days doing this with the whole crew, come up with a new set of specs, then put it with a copy of the real specs in a file box labeled "IN CASE OF NEW FIRE TRUCK, BREAK OPEN AND READ" so that in 5, 10, or even 20 years from now, the new spec committee won't make the same mistakes.
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    Originally posted by Fire304
    Is the Telma one of the electric "Jake" brakes? We considered one, but have heard they don't mix well with road salt, went with a traditional Jake instead.
    Telma's site is under construction.
    http://www.industrialautomatic.com/html/telma1.htm



    The big problem I see with these are the load they place on the electrical system. I believe they are 4 stages, and that each stage requires 50 amps. So if all 4 are engaged, you're suddenly drawing 200 amps. Hmm... now how big is our alternator? And what else do we have running? Q2B, electronic siren, red blinkies, A/C, etc...

    I'd rather keep the strain on the 12V system low...well, low enough so that having a REAL siren [read Q2B] isn't a problem.

    Rhino lining was on my A-list for E1, and more recently, R1. Heh, didn't fly. $$$. At the local Rhino installer, they have info on using Rhino liner to rehab old engines, and even to seal tanks and tank baffles. I think it's a great idea though that probably pays for itself over the life of the vehicle.
    Last edited by Resq14; 08-14-2003 at 01:42 PM.
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    http://www.christianafc.org/apparatu...ID=3&AppID=3-7

    Here is a 1997 Pierce 75' Rear Mount quint with 500 gallons of water

    We have had some small problem with it.

    It is do to be replaced by an Engine in 2015

    Look at the pics...its not to fun to rack hose on this truck.

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    CTS2686, what kind of problems are you having or had and why did your department decide to replace it with an Engine instead of another Quint or a Ladder?

    Wandering some of the differnces, pros, cons, etc. to a tandem vs. a single axle? How close to GVW with a single axle? We are wanting to run this basically as an engine with a stick so we don't use an Engine. We have two other Engine's and are replacing the third with this truck, but are trying not to loose the "third Engine" and gain a "Ladder" at the same time. Any Feedback?

    For those of you that have Quint's, Ladder's, Tower's, etc. single and tandem axles, may we contact you via e-mail, phone etc. for questions/comments? Thanks again!

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    If your set on buying a quint, there are many things to look at.

    #1) Determine the function and mission of the proposed rig. Is it a pumper with an elevated master stream or a ladder truck with its own capability to generate a water supply. This is key to determining what type of rig you spec. If it is running as your Truck Co. you have need for more of that type of equipment and for different apparatus placement on the fireground which may change current SOP's. If it is running as an Engine Co. you need to make sure you can carry all the hose, fittings, adapters, etc. for a 1st in pumper crew and also have a tank that is of usable size. If you are gonna carry CAFS this another space occupying system that needs to be thought of up front, not after the fact. This is where the decision on what tools to carry and what tools not to carry is made. The only way to determine this is to decide how its gonna operate on the fire ground. Another consideration is colateral assignments. Is this rig gonna carry your rescue tools for vehicle extrications, swift water equipment, killer bee attack equipment, hazardous materials gear, etc? This can vastly effect your compartment space requirements.

    #2) DO NOT automatically decide you need a 75' or 100' length aerial or that you have to have a platform, snorkel or straight stick based upon what you want. Do a needs assessment of your 1st due area. Look at the buildings closely. Not just the height of them, but the set back from the road. When we speced our ladder tower in my volunteer department, we quickly learned that we needed a 95' or greater aerial because of the set backs we had, not the building height.

    #3) After you determine length, look at the type of aerial you need. There are 3 criteria we used for this part: A) Fire flow requirements. Do you have alot of 200,000+ square foot warehouses, garden apartment buildings, etc. like we do that need the most water you can develop by way of 2 monitors in a platform, or would 1500GPM from a single monitor on a straight stick do the trick. B) Do you have many multiple occupancies, old folks homes, hotles/motels, etc. where evacuation is a primary consideration? C) What are the most common roof structure types you have and do you do true roof ventialtion work. If your department does open roofs, are you faced with mostly pitched roofs or mostly flat roofs. It is safer, easier and more efficient to vent from the bucket that the tip of a straight stick.

    #4) Now you can narrow and more closely define the specific type of aerial you need. By this point you should know if you are leaning towards a straight stick or ladder tower. This is where you need to look at your station, your road height clearnaces, etc. Decide if a rear mount ladder tower fit in your station or if a mid mount version is the only one that will fit. Confirm that the rear mount straight stick does fit down your streets and that you do not need a mid mount. Drive your territory with the demo rigs and make sure these rigs fit down EVERY street in your 1st due, not just the main drags. It would be a total slap in the face of your members by denying them a valuable tool to use as well as the citizens which the rig was bought to serve and protet. Additionally the black eye the department would take would be very embarrasing. I know your guys can hump the ladders in and bring the tools with them, but the cord reels, the aerial and the generator are gonna sit on the rig at the end of the block.

    These are just some considerations we kept in mind when specing our Ladder Tower and our Tele-Squrt. There were about 20 other issues we considered also, if your interested in what they were let me know.

    Stay low and move it in.
    Last edited by STATION2; 08-18-2003 at 08:18 PM.
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


    Larry

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    I think in most cases you are better off buying a demo. You get more for your money. With the exception of maybe a dozen quints almost all are cookie cutter designs. So all the talk about I have a custom quint isn't really true anyway. Most have standard body work, then a few dozen extras bolted on. Unless you are doing a Loveland with a quint single axle and 750 tank, Fallon with 2000 tank and half mile of 5 inch, Charlotte with 2500 tank, you're really just paying extra for a new build demo.

    We bought two 75'ers last Christmas with 2000 gpm, 500 tanks, foam, hallide floods, squirrel tails, Cyclone 2 cabs, 450 hp, allow wheels, dual rotorays, ton of attack lines, 2200 foot 5" beds for $408,000 each

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    Default Sutphen?

    We looked at a 70', platform, midmount, single axle, 500 gal. tank, 1500 g.p.m. pump, 6 man cab, with 2 stabilizers (not outriggers, so you cannot short-jack this truck, sets up at a max. of 6 degree slope) etc. anyone know any information on these trucks (goo/bad/ugly)!?! Thanks again! You all have really been alot of help and we really do appreciate your help and input!
    Last edited by fireresq30637; 08-21-2003 at 07:14 PM.

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    Default Problems with single axel

    We have a 65' Pierce single axel quint. Many problems with springs/shackles. Truck leaned to right rear. After spring re-arch it leans to left front and pulls. Be careful on weight.

  24. #24
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    Originally posted by hazenfd
    We bought two 75'ers last Christmas with 2000 gpm, 500 tanks, foam, hallide floods, squirrel tails, Cyclone 2 cabs, 450 hp, allow wheels, dual rotorays, ton of attack lines, 2200 foot 5" beds for $408,000 each
    HazenFD, can you contact me off line at boxalarm187@aol.com? I have a couple of questions for ya. Thanks!

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