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  1. #1
    District Chief distchief60b's Avatar
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    Thumbs down West Virginia--Another Tragic Sensless LODD

    Here is the link to the story on the main page of FH.com

    http://cms.firehouse.com/content/art...Id=39&id=17035

    I can not understand that if the unit had an alarm and it was working, how can two (2) people not hear it and one of them get run over??????????
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.


  2. #2
    Sr. Information Officer NJFFSA16's Avatar
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    Question

    The Sheriff’s Department is investigating the accident. Miller said the department examined the truck and found no mechanical problems.

    “We’ve still got a lot of details we need to overturn,” Miller said. “We’re still knee deep in it”.
    Doesn't someone stand to the side of a vehicle...in FULL view of the mirrors, when directing in these circumstances? I can understand...MAYBE, how one person could be injured or killed....But two? What was this guy doing, backing up at thirty miles an hour?

    Something doesn't add up here. It certainly puzzles this FF.

    Proudly serving as the IACOJ Minister of Information & Propoganda!
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  3. #3
    Forum Member Weruj1's Avatar
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    Question

    and no more new info !!!!!!!!!!!! I too dont get it ?????
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
    RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
    LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607
    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

  4. #4
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    I live a couple counties away from where this occured. And no new details have even really been released locally. If I find out anything else I will post. I do know the incident occurred outside on their pad and it is a fairly large one at that. The funeral was held Saturday, unfortunately I was unable to attend though. I can't even imagine what is going through the driver of the truck's head right now. May God be with him, the injured firefighter, and the family of the fallen.

    --Matt
    These opinions are my own, not of my company or my affiliates

    2 in, 2 Out, Pass on, Collar up, SHOW TIME!

  5. #5
    Junior Member burrhead's Avatar
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    Unhappy The experts chime in . . .

    An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made, in a narrow field.--Niels Bohr

    It should be noted: the driver and the fatally injured victim, (friends since high school), had a combined 45 years in the fire service. I don’t think they, could have possibly made it this long without having something on the ball. For the keyboard experts, God help you if you feel immune to mistake when several parties are involved and one word of miscommunication causes death. If you stay on that high horse and do nothing, you may not have to worry about making that mistake.

    For those of you who feel you know how this happened, (vehicle speed, guide/no guide, etc.), please feel free to contact Chief Deputy Rodney Miller of the Boone County Sheriff's Dept., (304) 369-7340. You should ask for a copy of their report and then maybe you can speak intellgently when you feel the need to write about the incident.

    To the thousands who have decided not to play armchair incident commander, I submit the following on behalf of a mourning, but grateful department: We would truly like to thank the public, the hundreds of members of fire departments, EMS and Law Enforcement agencies, various state agencies and numerous churches who have offered prayers, assistance or just a kind word to the Lutsy family and our department during this time of great mourning. You kindness is appreciated more than you can know.

    I think this message should end with a paragraph that is Barry’s own words and may provide insight into the reason he was loved by so many. These words come from a statement we ask our members to write on an updated personnel form.

    “I’ve always tried to help others that needed help, to administer first aid or try to save things precious to them. The department as a whole did this for many when I was a part of your department before. I was very proud of the department and of the firefighters in which I trusted and depended upon when we were fighting a fire. Thanks for allowing me to be a part of the department again”. - - Barry D. Lutsy

    Sincerely,

    Archie E. Hubbard
    Chief
    Racine VFD

    PS: Thank you Matt for YOUR concern.
    Last edited by burrhead; 08-18-2003 at 05:24 PM.

  6. #6
    Forum Member 1835Wayne's Avatar
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    My condolences to the family and friends of the victims and the driver.

    The title of this thread is accurate. This loss is a tragedy, it is senseless. There is nothing wrong with calling a spade a spade. On these forums, we try to think of what could have gone wrong so that, perhaps, we can keep the same thing from happening on our respective departments.

    Chief, I lost two of my closest friends in an apparatus accident in 1999. Their names are now on a memorial in Maryland, just like Mr. Lutsy's will be in October of 2004. The loss of my friends was tragic and senseless. It is not a reflection on their fidelity or abilities that they are dead, but rather an unfortunate turn of events. It is still very early for you to see this, but lessons must be learned from these incidents. They must be. It would be criminal not to learn from it.

    I loved those men who gave their lives that October day in '99, and for quite some time, I refused to accept ANY criticism of the driver, who was my friend. But, HE MADE A FATAL ERROR. I don't love him any less for it. I just miss them both.
    I.A.C.O.J. Charter Member
    "Chet, get an inch and a half on that!"

    "Not for fame or reward,Not for place or rank. Not lured by ambition or goaded by necessity. But in simple obedience to duty as they understood it. These men suffered,sacrificed,dared all, and died. Let us never forget our fallen friends."

  7. #7
    Sr. Information Officer NJFFSA16's Avatar
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    Default Re: The experts chime in . . .

    Originally posted by burrhead
    For the keyboard experts, God help you if you feel immune to mistake when several parties are involved and one word of miscommunication causes death. If you stay on that high horse and do nothing, you may not have to worry about making that mistake.
    Archie E. Hubbard
    Chief
    Racine VFD

    PS: Thank you Matt for YOUR concern.
    With all due respect sir....nobody is attempting to play armchair expert here....and no one is on their high horse. I do not feel immune to making mistakes. However, I strive to learn from them. Our sincere concern is to evaluate this incident and understand HOW it occurred...in hopes of preventing a repeat of this tragedy. No one is pointing fingers; no one is questioning the abilities or integrity of the driver. We all offer condolences to the family and friends of these firefighters.

    In every fatality suffered by the fire service, we need to take a look at how it happened, why it happened and what we can do to prevent similar incidents from happening again. Otherwise, we are doomed to repeat history....as has been stated on these forums time and time again.

    Sure, it's easy to say "it was an accident, let's move on." However, we need to learn from our mistakes....and from history. For example, the dangers of truss roof collapse...Hackensack, NJ...Waldbaums in New York City. This incident may be on a smaller scale....but it is of no less importance.

    This firefighter will never stick his head in the sand....but will continue to strive towards a safer firefighting environment.
    Proudly serving as the IACOJ Minister of Information & Propoganda!
    Be Safe! Lookouts-Awareness-Communications-Escape Routes-Safety Zones

    *Gathering Crust Since 1968*
    On the web at www.section2wildfire.com

  8. #8
    District Chief distchief60b's Avatar
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    Chief,

    Please understand the following...

    Like others have said...My condolences to the families and the members of the fire department. Not a person on this forum is happy about what happened.

    As my esteenmed "older" brother from New Jersey says.....the purpose of this thread is to discuss the incident and the events that led to it and identify means by which to keep it from happening to someone else.

    In general the discussion surrounds information that is released to the media such as the estimated speed at which the vehicle was travelling.

    No one is armchair quaterbacking this incident. We are all just as sorry it happened as you are. Our ultimate goal here is to eliminate all firefighter fatalities...
    Last edited by captstanm1; 08-20-2003 at 07:01 AM.
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  9. #9
    Forum Member ThNozzleman's Avatar
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    A "guide" is generally in a more risky position behind the apparatus.If the driver can't make the truck go backwards as easily as he/she can go forwards, then that person shouldn't be behind the wheel. No "guide" necessary.
    No one can drive a vehicle in reverse "as easily" as they can going forward. You simply cannot see everything. Our policy is to always use a spotter when backing, especially in areas we are not familiar with. We also pull our rigs through the station, whenever possible, to further minimize the chance of backing over someone or something. I, too, have seen the guys who back into the station way too fast. Slow down and use a spotter. Roll the window down and turn the music off, so you can hear.

  10. #10
    Junior Member burrhead's Avatar
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    captstanm1 burrhead....hmmmm..3 posts and 2 of them are identical...
    Sir,

    Unless I missed something, there were two posts which indeed were identical and probably due to user error more than anything else. Prior to this, I can find no third post I have made regarding this discussion.

    In my 23 years in the fire service, I have learned there is no better way to learn from an incident, accident, training session or any other experience than a proper post event critique. However, I find it quite difficult to believe you can call discussions about this or any other event an appropriate critique when the ink has not dried on the statements given by those involved. To assume a vehicle is traveling too fast or music may have been playing relies most certainly on facts not in evidence. I am not sure to what media you refer, but no one here has ever seen a broadcast or print media that mentions vehicle speed.

    I, before anyone else, will be the first to admit this was inevitably a preventable accident. I do not subscribe to the theory, (as some do), that all accidents are preventable, but in this case, probably so. Our department is relatively young, (30 years), compared to many and quite older than some, but we have never felt we were above learning from any. My problem is that to properly learn from a specific incident, there should be no rush to judgment and considering the emotional impact this has on all of us here, we can probably best determine the facts from someone outside the agency using proper investigative techniques and compiling a true depiction of what has occurred.

    We gladly accept comments intended to assist, but refrain from accepting assumptions, innuendos and half-truths. While my comments in the first post were not meant to offend anyone, they were made at a time by someone who arrived on the scene 1-2 minutes after the incident and I still did not know each and every aspect of the how the event unfolded and feel quite sure that those posting from places hours and miles away cannot be speaking from an intimate knowledge perspective. We have law enforcement, fire marshal, DOT, OSHA as well as insurance agencies investigating and will gladly share, (upon their completion), any report with any department who feels they can use it as a training tool or some other beneficial endeavor. I too hope if nothing else, this event and the details surrounding it can be used to prevent this from ever happening again, but first you must know the story to tell it.

    Again, to those who have used these forums to express condolences and other kind words, our department and the Lutsy family sincerely thank you.

    Archie E. Hubbard
    Chief
    Racine VFD
    Last edited by burrhead; 08-20-2003 at 01:54 AM.

  11. #11
    District Chief distchief60b's Avatar
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    Chief Hubbard....

    If you check back I removed the comments about the posts...was inappropriate and I appologize....

    Next....If you read what I have posted, I have not accused anyone of anything nor have I drawn any conclusions on what happened. From the number of posts that you have made, one can see that you are new to the forums. In the past, when an injury or death has occurred one of us who have been around for years (almost 33 here...paid and volunteer) and want to see these types of incidents corrected, will post a thread to begin a discussion on it. Then, as has happend here, others will post newspaper articles and make comments as to their "opinion" on what happened and ways to correct it. This discussion (as in the Lairdsville Incident and the Wyoming Incident) will most likely continue until the official report comes out and then we will draw conclusions based on the report and discuss them here.

    Our intent is to keep these incidents from happening to someone else by discussion them. So there is no dispespect to anyone meant here and we (again) are not monday morning quaterbacking.

    My friends Chief Reason, George Wendt, Njffsa16 and a few others can be a bit **al retentive about stupid things that happen that injur, criple or kill people in this business.

    Also....Chief...An accident is one that occurs despite the fact that everything that could have been done to prevent it was done.

    Again, my condolences to your department, your members and the members of the family. As a former Chief Officer who has dealt with 3 line of duty deaths in my former jurisdiciton, I certainly know what you are experiencing.

    NOZZLEMAN....believe it or not, I agree with your comments. One thing the keep in mind. Drive through bays should be the answer to a lot of backing accidents. However, many departments do not have that luxory or those that did at one time now have additional apparatus and the drive through capability is gone.
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  12. #12
    MembersZone Subscriber E229Lt's Avatar
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    Chief,

    I have deleted my post on the matter. However, I believe most of us spoke from personal experience, having seen some near misses and witnessed some unsafe practices in our own departments. Most of these were brought up as possible scenarios, in no way suggesting fact or fault.

    I would not have entered and commented in this thread knowing it would involve a member, much less Chief, of the affected department.

    I will make one comment to you with the utmost respect:

    Your last "signed" post has some suggestion of preventability which could well become part of an investigation's record.

    None of my business? Yes.

    Had it happen to me? Also, Yes.


    Note: you can edit and/or delete a post by clicking "edit" in the lower right of the post's box.

  13. #13
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    Default My apologies and condolances

    Chief, I have deleted the offending posts. My condolances to the family and to your dept.I'm sorry if my commentary sounded accusatory at all, it wasn't meant to be.In no way did I intend to point any fingers. Typing on the internet,things may not be understood in the spirit they're intended.
    As the Capt and Lt.said, we discuss these incidents to share ideas,learn and prevent like incidents from ever occurring again.

  14. #14
    Sr. Information Officer NJFFSA16's Avatar
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    Post 8/21

    No charges to be filed in fatal accident at fire station

    (Racine-AP) -- No charges will be filed in an accident at a
    Boone County fire station in which a fire truck struck two
    firefighters, killing one of them.
    Boone County sheriff's Chief Deputy Rodney Miller says it was
    just a tragic accident.
    Forty-five-year-old Barry Lutsy of Ashford died at Charleston
    Area Medical Center following the August 13th accident at the
    Racine Volunteer Fire Department's station.
    Seventeen-year-old Nicholas Cornell of Seth suffered injuries to
    his legs. He was also transported to C-A-M-C, where he was treated
    and released.
    Firefighters had been cleaning the truck after returning from a
    call when it backed into the station, running over Lutsy and
    Cornell.
    The sheriff's department examined the truck and found no
    malfunctions.
    The firefighter who was driving the truck has not been
    identified.


    (Copyright 2003 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)

    Again....rest in peace Barry! You shall be missed...of that you can be certain.
    Proudly serving as the IACOJ Minister of Information & Propoganda!
    Be Safe! Lookouts-Awareness-Communications-Escape Routes-Safety Zones

    *Gathering Crust Since 1968*
    On the web at www.section2wildfire.com

  15. #15
    Sr. Information Officer NJFFSA16's Avatar
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    Arrow ^

    ^
    Proudly serving as the IACOJ Minister of Information & Propoganda!
    Be Safe! Lookouts-Awareness-Communications-Escape Routes-Safety Zones

    *Gathering Crust Since 1968*
    On the web at www.section2wildfire.com

  16. #16
    District Chief distchief60b's Avatar
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    Amen Brother
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

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