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  1. #21
    MembersZone Subscriber mcaldwell's Avatar
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    Originally posted by manofire2
    I have read that if you took the money that your tax dollars pay for your "free" health care and placed it into a private health care plan, you would not only get a higher standard of health care but it would also be comprehensive and include dental care and pharma care.
    This is a misconception that is finally being proven wrong with the latest failed attempts to privatize Health Care Clinics in major Canadian cities. We all know that private FD's and EMS providers cut expenses to improve profits, and Hospitals will do exactly the same and worse in the name of "competition" (as is done in the US all the time). I will take our system any day before I watch class-based health care imposed on us.

    You're right our election was over in less than 14 hours, in fact it was over long before you voted and Ontario put our delusional Prime Minister back in power with just 46% of the popular vote.
    A popular attitude in AB these days. You're begginning to sound like the new Quebec.

    I would also find it interesting to hear what the people in Kelowna and Cranbrook think of our federal government and its indifference towards their needs.
    Kelowna and Cranbrook along with the rest of BC and AB, have been receiving federal aid through military and other logistical assistance since this crisis was only a few weeks old. They have also been promised significant federal aid for the rebuilding phase. Unfortunately, this is the 100 year fire season, and all the money in the world cannot fix it. As painful as it is to watch, this is as natural a cycle as the fires themselves. You build sloppily in the interface, and you take your chances.

    And ironically, these are some of the same areas that are crying to the federal gov't to leave them alone and let them manage their own forest practices, even though thier own practices have exacerbated these catastrophes in the first place.
    Never argue with an Idiot. They drag you down to their level, and then beat you with experience!

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  2. #22
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    Originally posted by mcaldwell






    Kelowna and Cranbrook along with the rest of BC and AB, have been receiving federal aid through military and other logistical assistance since this crisis was only a few weeks old. They have also been promised significant federal aid for the rebuilding phase. Unfortunately, this is the 100 year fire season, and all the money in the world cannot fix it. As painful as it is to watch, this is as natural a cycle as the fires themselves. You build sloppily in the interface, and you take your chances.

    I stand corrected there has been massive (this is sarcasm in case you don't catch it) Federal responce to this crisis, just today it was announce that there have been 800 reservists (not regular forces) dispatched to help fire crews. One has to wonder whether reservists would be used if this crisis were in Ont. or Quebec but I digress.

    I am not by the way demeaning the role of the reservists in any way, by all accounts they are serving honourably in Kelowna and my hat is off to them, great job.

    Jean Chretien himself has made a great sacrifice. He has announce that he will cut short a sightseeing trip to the arctic to visit the scene. What do you want to bet that the visit will include a photo-op of Jean with a fire hose (remember that sand bag shot in Manitoba during the floods), followed by a tour of the area by helicopter (not a sea king) and then right back to his vacation. I am sure this is a precursor to massive federal aid to the region.

    On a more serious note, tremendous job by all fighting the fires as well as those working in the disaster services. These people deserve our support and our prayers.

    By the way, since you are from BC, would there be any chance that the Martin Mars from Sproat Lake will be sent out to help in Kelowna.
    Last edited by manofire2; 08-23-2003 at 02:57 PM.

  3. #23
    Forum Member Smoke20286's Avatar
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    manofire, not that I disagree with you entirely, but what difference does it make if they sent reservists or regulars, neither are trained as wildland firefighters, I know that forestry firefighters from Newfoundland have been sent to BC, it is my understanding that this is being paid for by the Federal Government. Politicians are what they are brother, no matter what stripe they wear. In fact check out this

    The Story of Mouseland


    as told by Tommy Douglas, 1944




    It's the story of a place called Mouseland. Mouseland was a place where all the little mice lived and played, were born and died. And they lived much the same as you and I do.

    They even had a parliament. And every four years the had an election. Used to walk to the polls and cast their ballots. Some of them even got a ride to the polls. And got a ride for the next four years afterwards too. Just like you and me. And every time on election day all the little mice used to go to the ballot box and they used to elect a government. A government made up of big, fat, black cats.

    Now if you think it strange that mice should elect a government made up of cats, you just look at the history of Canada for the last 90 years and maybe you'll see that they weren't any stupider then we are.

    Now I'm not saying anything against the cats. They were nice fellows. They conducted their government with dignity. They passed good laws -- that is, laws that were good for cats. But the laws that were good for cats weren't very good for mice. One of the laws said that mouse holes had to be big enough so a cat could get his paw in. Another law said that mice could only travel at certain speeds -- so that a cat could get his breakfast without too much effort.

    All the laws were good laws. For cats. But, oh, they were hard on the mice. And life was getting harder and harder. And when the mice couldn't put up with it any more, they decided that something had to be done about it. So they went en masse to the polls. They voted the black cats out. They put in the white cats.

    Now the white cats had put up a terrific campaign. They said: "All that's Mouseland needs is more vision." They said: "The trouble with Mouseland is those round mouse holes we got. If you put us in we'll establish square mouse holes." And they did. And the square mouse holes were twice as big as the round mouse holes, and now the cat could get both paws in. And life was tougher then ever.

    And when they couldn't take that anymore, they voted the white cats out and put the black one's in again. Then they went back to the white cats. Then to the black cats. They even tried half black and half white cats. And they called that coalition. They even got one government made up of cats with spots on them: they were cats that tried to make a noise like a mouse but ate like a cat.

    You see, my friends, the trouble wasn't with the colour of the cat. The trouble was that they were cats. And because they were cats, they naturally looked after cats instead of mice.

    Presently there came along one little mouse who had an idea. My friends, watch out for the little fellow with an idea. And he said to the other mice, "Look fellows, why do we keep electing a government made up of cats? Why don't we elect a government made up of mice?" "OH," they said, "he's a Bolshevik. Lock him up!" So they put him in jail.

    But I want to remind you: That you can lock up a mouse or a man but you can't lock up an idea.

    --Tommy Douglas, 1944
    Last edited by Smoke20286; 08-23-2003 at 05:22 PM.
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    That's nice SMOKE and I happen to be a big Tommy Douglas fan but Jean Chretien transends the normal political game. His distain for the West which he terms as the dark side is beyond politics. The man is a liar, he laughs out the side of his face as he lines his pockets in the Auberge Grande Mere scandal. I have no use for this man and will dance the cance of joy when we finally see his sorry *** walking out the door. He has now surpassed Trudeau as the worst PM in Canadian history.

  5. #25
    Forum Member Smoke20286's Avatar
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    Did you forget a guy named Mulroony? My parents have been PC's all their lives, and even they hate that crook

    P.S. I'm a big fan of Tommy Douglas too, as an interesting side note Kiefer Sutherland(star of movies and TV's 24) is his grandson
    A'int No Rocket Scientist's in The Firehall

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    You can blame the Federal Liberals on Ontario but if you do you've got to have a serious alternative. When Chretien was first elected we had just had Mulroney. Next time the opponents were Joe Clarke and I can't even remember the Alliance guy thats how impressive he was. And don't accuse me of being Liberal I vote PC. Also if Chretien hates the West so much why did he send disaster relief for the Red River flood and nothing to Toronto for SARS?

  7. #27
    Forum Member Smoke20286's Avatar
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    You've hit the nail on the head Scoop, The Aliance or Reform party or whatever will never be a viable alternative for Eastern Canada, and to you guys out West I do mean Eastern, NOT Ontario The PC's have no real national base anymore( Mulroney saw to that), that leaves us with the Liberals or the NDP (who cannot attract strong enough candidates to win a national election. So guess who will form the next government in Ottawa, and the next, and probably the next after that. It gets monotonous doesnt it.
    A'int No Rocket Scientist's in The Firehall

  8. #28
    Forum Member RspctFrmCalgary's Avatar
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    Well since we're talking about it I figured I'd just post this here

    Chretien breaks off from Northern trip to tour B.C. disaster area

    LOUISE ELLIOTT

    IQALUIT (CP) - Prime Minister Jean Chretien interrupted his tour of the Eastern Arctic to visit the fire-scarred Okanagan region of British Columbia on Sunday.

    About 30,000 people have been driven from their homes in the southern suburbs of Kelowna in the face of a relentless blaze.

    Scores of fires have consumed about five times the amount of water usually spent to control such incidents in the province each summer, while destroying vast swaths of forest and some towns.

    "He's going to be on the ground and see it for himself," said Steven Hogue, spokesman for the prime minister.

    Chretien cancelled a planned visit to Cape Dorset on the southwestern tip of Baffin Island to return home before heading to British Columbia.

    He will make the unscheduled trip on the heels of criticism that he was almost invisible during Ontario's province-wide power outage last week.

    During that crisis, the prime minister remained at his cottage in Lac-des-Piles, Que. and monitored the federal response to the blackout over the telephone.

    He did appear before cameras in his hometown of Shawinigan two days after the lights went out. Any earlier public appearance during the outage would have been "grandstanding," Chretien said last week.

    Chretien opened a new national park adjacent to Iqaluit, the capital of Nunavut, on Saturday. He also spent time hiking in the region with his wife, Aline, daughter, and grandchildren.

    The federal government has already dispatched Canadian soldiers to the Okanagan to help fight the forest fires. Chretien indicated he was listening to the appeals of British Columbia Premier Gordon Campbell for federal aid.

    "I heard the premier. We said that whenever he asks we can help, we're there and we'll be there."

    Chretien has been chided for not always being there. He was criticized for failing to go to Toronto in the initial days after the SARS outbreak earlier this year. He was also accused of being slow to speak up after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

    But a representative of the prime minister's office seemed prepared for this criticism. Hogue said Chretien was visible during key Canadian crises such as the Saguenay, Que. floods of 1996, the ice storm which hit eastern Ontario and Quebec in 1997, a tornado in Pine Lake Alberta in 1999 and the Winnipeg flood of 1997.

    The prime minister's plans in Kelowna include touring an evacuation site.

    The Canadian Press, 2003

    08/23/2003 15:00 EST

    But a representative of the prime minister's office seemed prepared for this criticism. Hogue said Chretien was visible during key Canadian crises such as the Saguenay, Que. floods of 1996, the ice storm which hit eastern Ontario and Quebec in 1997, a tornado in Pine Lake Alberta in 1999 and the Winnipeg flood of 1997.

    Oh so this makes it all OK?? LMFAO!!!
    September 11th - Never Forget

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  9. #29
    Forum Member PFire23's Avatar
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    Chretien is a GOOF!!! ......... need I say more???
    To the world you might be one person, but to one person you just might be the world.

    IACOJ-WOT proud

    GO WHITE SOX!!!!!

  10. #30
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    Originally posted by Scoop422
    You can blame the Federal Liberals on Ontario but if you do you've got to have a serious alternative. When Chretien was first elected we had just had Mulroney. Next time the opponents were Joe Clarke and I can't even remember the Alliance guy thats how impressive he was. And don't accuse me of being Liberal I vote PC. Also if Chretien hates the West so much why did he send disaster relief for the Red River flood and nothing to Toronto for SARS?
    At least during the SARS crisis the waiting period for EI was waived for medical workers. The same relief was requested for workers in Alberta who lost their jobs due to mad cow disease and was refused (a bit of a double standard don't you think).

    My beef with Ontario voters is that they don't realize that they don't hold politicians accountable for the past. The voters in Hamilton voted Sheila Copps back in after the GST lie. They had a glorious opportunity to send a message that lieing is not acceptable, instead they did the opposite. I hope Chretiens promise of aid to those displaced in BC doesn't prove to be another of his lies but I am sceptical. There will be aid but I fear it will be a token response and far less than is needed.

    I hope for once that Chretien proves me wrong but I won't hold my breath.
    Last edited by manofire2; 08-25-2003 at 10:15 AM.

  11. #31
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    Originally posted by Smoke20286
    You've hit the nail on the head Scoop, The Aliance or Reform party or whatever will never be a viable alternative for Eastern Canada, and to you guys out West I do mean Eastern, NOT Ontario The PC's have no real national base anymore( Mulroney saw to that), that leaves us with the Liberals or the NDP (who cannot attract strong enough candidates to win a national election. So guess who will form the next government in Ottawa, and the next, and probably the next after that. It gets monotonous doesnt it.
    How can you say there is no alternative unles you are willing to vote for change. The problem is that any party proposing decentralizing Government cannot win in Ontario. Why give up a good thing. It really is a Catch 22, if you tell the truth Ontario won't vote for you and if you lie you compromise your principles. Liberals don't seem to have a problem with this (neither for that matter did Mulroney but I've always said he was a liberal in tory clothing).

  12. #32
    Forum Member Smoke20286's Avatar
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    manofire, you have answered your own question, I'm presuming you support the Aliance party, but if it stands no chance in Ontario, and no chance in Quebec, and no chance in Eastern Canada even though its small representation will do little to change the balance of power then it is doomed to defeat
    A'int No Rocket Scientist's in The Firehall

  13. #33
    Forum Member RspctFrmCalgary's Avatar
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    nooooooo noooooooo noooooooooo say it isn't so!!!!!!!!!!

    I heard a VICIOUS VICIOUS RUMOUR on the radio this morning that Chretien wants to go to some stupid thing in Mexico which has been moved up from November to January and now he WANTS TO STAY ON LONGER!!!!!

    NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

    Last edited by RspctFrmCalgary; 08-26-2003 at 12:49 PM.
    September 11th - Never Forget

    I respect firefighters and emergency workers worldwide. Thank you for what you do.

    Sheri
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    RAY WAS HERE FIRST

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    Originally posted by Smoke20286
    manofire, you have answered your own question, I'm presuming you support the Aliance party, but if it stands no chance in Ontario, and no chance in Quebec, and no chance in Eastern Canada even though its small representation will do little to change the balance of power then it is doomed to defeat
    Therein lies the rub. How does one in vote for a party which does not represent the wishes of the constituents or worse in the case of the liberals MISrepresents the wishes of the constituents. I would rather vote for a party or candidate which is doomed to defeat than to comprimise my pricipals and vote for a party which has repeatedly shown a distain for me and my part of the country.

    The question of whom I support is a difficult one. I support the ideals of the Reform Party which were comprimised to form the Alliance Party (a move which I am not totally in agreement with). The principals of equal voices for all Canadians in my view is still a vision which can and should be attained. The liberals continue a policy of pitting regions of the county against one another in order to attain their agenda which is to Govern the country to fulfill the needs of the core and not the needs of the whole. Hyphenated Canadianism and classes of Canadianism (I call it the Upper Canada Syndrome) will continue to drive wedges between the regions until we elect a leader or a party with the guts to say that Canada needs to change the way we govern. A government that governs for all Canadians not just the needs of one or two provinces. A government that does not pit region against region, person against person.

    If there was such a leader or party, I would vote for them no matter what party label they are attached to. Unfortunately not much has changed with the liberals since Trudeau waved his third finger salute at BC.

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    manofire2

    It sounds like you're the one pitting region against region.

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    Forum Member ThNozzleman's Avatar
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    Wow...it's sort of nice to sit back and watch someone besides the donkeys and the elephants hash it out for a change!

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    Originally posted by Scoop422
    manofire2

    It sounds like you're the one pitting region against region.
    If expecting all persons to be treated with equality regardless of what part of the country they live in is pitting region against region.

    I guess I am guilty.

    If expecting honesty and impartiality from our elected officials is pitting region against region.

    I guess I am guilty.

    If expecting people left homeless in BC to get the same level of response from Ottawa as those affected by the ice storm in Quebec is pitting region against region.

    I guess I am guilty.

    Will I stop expecting these things from my government....Never!

    Will I stop believing that Ontario voters need to vote with the brain and not their heart (or whatever body part they use).

    I hope some day I can.

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    Originally posted by ThNozzleman
    Wow...it's sort of nice to sit back and watch someone besides the donkeys and the elephants hash it out for a change!
    The United States does not have a monopoly on morons in government or the idiots who vote them in. It is somehow appropriate that half your politicians are donkeys and half of ours are *****es.

  19. #39
    Forum Member ThNozzleman's Avatar
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    I'll have to admit; I've learned a lot about Canada by reading this forum. I used to date a girl from Canada, what province she lived in, I don't recall. I remember that she thought the healthcare system there was the best thing since sliced bread, though. Keep it up, guys; this is pretty interesting to me.

  20. #40
    Forum Member Smoke20286's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Scoop422
    manofire2

    It sounds like you're the one pitting region against region.
    But Scoop, he does have a point, there is a real feeling in Western Canada particularly that all of Canada's power base is in "Central Canada" (i.e. Ontario and Quebec) sure it can be argued that the majority of the population live in those regions, but that does nothing to relieve the feeling of lack of representation felt by those in Western and Eastern Canada
    A'int No Rocket Scientist's in The Firehall

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