Why register? ...To Enhance Your Experience
+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 17 of 17
  1. #1
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    24

    Default Bucket mounted ventilation saw?

    I was curious if there was any information on such a device. My Lt. asked me to find whatever I could about either building or buying some kind of arm which would allow for roof ventilation while staying within the bucket. After doing many drills leaning out of the bucket door (while strapped in of course) we were hoping there was a faster way to make the cuts and simply use a long hook to pull the pieces up, being it's safer then having a FF lean outside the buckets walls, and hopefully faster.


  2. #2
    FH Mag/.com Contributor
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Cypress, TX
    Posts
    7,288

    Default

    Although such a device would make things a ton safer, which I'm very much in favor of, I think the safety increase would only be on the surface.

    Having opened many a roof with a saw, there's no way I could have felt the structural members or really known where the saw blade was had I not had my hands directly on it to get the feedback. With the strength of the saws nowadays, there's no way to tell what the saw is going through if you're using some kind of device that removes the FF from the saw. Mechanical arms would decrease feedback, so you couldn't tell if you hit some kind of retrofitted structural member from a remodel. Which could cause a collapse of course, which would be quite bad, and decrease safety on the whole for everyone else. Where I used to run up outside of Philly, PA, we had tons of 100+ year old houses that had been renovated, and on one fire we went to we found 4 roofs. Instead of tearing out the old ones, they laid 1x2s and playwood over the old roof(s) and put down new shingles.

    I believe the most important tool on the fireground is the FF and his brain. Using your senses to get feedback on a fire is the most important thing a FF can do, and however safe this type of device might make the guys in the bucket, the overall safety effect might not be there. But then again, that's just my opinion, and you might be on to something. If you can't find one, make one up. You might be on to the next great thing to happen to firefighting.

    Good Luck & Stay Safe.

  3. #3
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    177

    Default

    Good question! My first thought was one of those robotic arms used by the power companies to trim branches near power lines (in a smaller version) but after reading BC79's reponse I would have to agree it is very important to feel the blade feedback to know what you are cutting.

  4. #4
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    24

    Default

    Thanks for the responses first of all, bought up a few good points I'll have to bring up when I speak to her. BC, unfortunatly I can't think of any way to get around what you said, we were already wondering how we would know when we hit a joist, let alone some of the things you mentioned. Even on a pole the FF is disconnected so I can't imagine how he'd do with something like what we're thinking up. We'll take a look at it but with the biggest problem in the way I'm not sure whether it'll happen even if we have a design drawn up.

    Engine, we were thinking the same thing, or even a pneumatic arm that would be able to let the FF swing it around and position it, but given the extra weight and force being put on the bucket it would only be so useful and could probably only be worked with the bucket at a relativly low height, otherwise you could risk shaking the whole thing apart.

    Thanks for the info, I'll let everyone know if we do ever come up with a working design.

  5. #5
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Baltimore, MD
    Posts
    27

    Default

    I did see a demo of a cobra cutter mounted on a Bronto Firelift. The system used a high pressure cutter not a saw to make the cuts. By using water mixed with a media it blasted through shingle and the plywood. It was not left in one place long enough to make it through structural beams. I am not sure if it can be retrofitted to existing ladders. As for cast I am not sure but with an $750,000 tower whats a few more dollars?

  6. #6
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    24

    Default

    Interesting, I'll have to find some more info on that cutter, do you know of a homepage for it? It hopefully wouldn't be too hard to fit onto a bucket but Ive never seen the system so it might be.

  7. #7
    Forum Member HFRH28's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    573

    Default

    First thing that came to my mind was a "weed-eater" style chain saw, with the saw on the end of a shaft, (better known as a pole saw) but the bar is too short, and the 2smoke engine is probably too weak. Just my 2 cents worth.

    Here is an electric version of the Pole saw: http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/w...ategoryId=1467

  8. #8
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Oct 1999
    Location
    Louisville, KY
    Posts
    60

    Talking Cobra Cutter

    Here's the link to the website for the Cobra Cutter mentioned above

    http://www.ccs-cobra.com/

    It looks interesting but..................

  9. #9
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    24

    Default

    Originally posted by HFRH28
    First thing that came to my mind was a "weed-eater" style chain saw, with the saw on the end of a shaft, (better known as a pole saw) but the bar is too short, and the 2smoke engine is probably too weak. Just my 2 cents worth.

    Here is an electric version of the Pole saw: http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/w...ategoryId=1467
    We actually tried a little bit more powerful version of a pole saw, 2HP I believe, even it couldn't do the job properly. It would cut with the right blade, but it did so so slowly and kept on jamming that it was worthless, the operator was so tired after using it from having to press so hard on the pole for enough bite that it would take a second person up there to pull the roof off. Does look like a good idea, but I'm thinking a K12 on a pole is a little too heavy

    Bulldog, interesting but. . . what? I'm actually goign to present that system to my Lt. so any bad news on it would be appreciated I was actually curious if anyone here has actually used the system before? Thanks for the homepage link, its alot of help.

  10. #10
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Oct 1999
    Location
    Louisville, KY
    Posts
    60

    Exclamation But............

    I haven't used the Cobra system for fire service but do have experience with High Pressure water cutting and cleaning for Industrial uses. High pressure water with abrasive can cut anything as Cobra states but without appropriate feed speed (rate across material) you can cut a lot behind what you want. There is also a significant personnel safety issue especially when it's hand held. If it can cut wood metal etx so fast imagine what it can do to skin! Also high pressure waer injected into the skin can cause severe infections. With just water (No abrasive) it's much safer but also much slower. Also in industrial environment the abrasive is injected at the head so the water feed equipment isn't worn by the abrasive, the water is feed as high pressure while the abrasive is feed at low pressure until it reaches the cutting head. With abrasive mixed with water I imagine the maintenance would be very high.

    Just my opinion based on Industrial work but I feel there are many issues to look at before adoption.

  11. #11
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    24

    Default

    Good points to bring up, we were worried that if we bought the portable system it might become a safety hazard, the consensus is that we'd keep the unit on some kind of mount on the bucket, but until we get the wand I'm really not sure whether thats possible or not. I wasn't aware that the water had alot of oer penetration though, I assumed ( no wonder I'm in the dark) that the water gets significantly slowed down once it begins cutting and just drips down, assuming you dont hold it in a spot you've just cut through already, but I guess this isn't the case. Guess it wouldnt be a good thing if we had an attic apartment while we were cuttin.

    Never thuoght of the abrasive wearing the wands bore, I'm assuming that isn't a cheap part to replace either, thanks for the heads up on that I'll make sure to pose that question to a rep if we go for a demo.

  12. #12
    dazed and confused Resq14's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    1,993

    Default Cobra Cutter

    I just read the propaganda on the Cobra Cutter... wow. Seems like a very cool way to vent a roof, amongsth other things. Very interesting.

    Last edited by Resq14; 08-21-2003 at 01:50 PM.
    God Bless America!Remember all have given some, but some have given all.
    Google Is Your Friend™Helpful forum tip - a "must see" if you're new here
    Click this to search FH Forums!

  13. #13
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    51

    Default

    I have wondered about such a device quite often. The tree trimming companies in our area use a hydraulic powered high speed disk saw (similar size to a 7-8" circluar saw blade)on an approx. 6ft fiberglass pole. While I have never handled one of these myself, the guys that you see running them often hold them in one hand (yeah I know...not exactly safe) so they must not be too heavy or anything and they cut through 2-3" tree limbs like a hot knife through butter. I doubt any of the apparatus mfgrs would be very thrilled about adding an auxilliary hydraulic port to their aerials, but seems like it wouldn't be too hard of an addition. With a max of 3-4" of penetration, the risk of cutting thru supporting members would probably be minimal. Anyway, just some food for thought.

  14. #14
    FH Mag/.com Contributor
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Cypress, TX
    Posts
    7,288

    Default

    And just like the Ventmaster or some other depth guard devices, something could be made to change the depth on that blade to something shallow enough that nicking a support member wouldn't compromise structural integrity, just like what's on a circular sa now. Range from .5" to about 3" ought to be more than enough. And while I haven't seen hydraulic lines up at the end of a bucket, there sure are pneumatic (breathing air) ports. I mean if Hurst and Holmatro are making rescue tools that can run off of air, why not something similar here? Hmmmmmm.......

  15. #15
    MembersZone Subscriber N2DFire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2000
    Location
    S.W. Virginia
    Posts
    1,286

    Default

    I read this thread a while back and didn't have time to post, but I too thought of the hydraulic powered pole saws. One point to remember in the design of said system - The hydraulic lines from the truck to the bucket are going to suffer the same effects of friction & gravity that your pre-piped waterway suffers. Thus you will have to make sure that the plumbing can supply the needed pressure AND VOLUME that the saw requires.

    That's why we have such small diameter hoses on the hydraulic rescue tools - they use a lot of pressure but not much volume so we can get by with the small hose.

    In this case I think that pneumatic is going to be the way to go as Air will not suffer the same problems. It's something you already have a source of (be it piped to the bucket or carried in an SCBA bottle).

    Try doing a google search for "pneumatic chain saw" or "pneumatic pole saw" - pretty interesting stuff.

    Like the Maibo ST-3 Click Here & Scroll Down
    Take Care - Stay Safe - God Bless
    Stephen
    FF/Paramedic
    Instructor

  16. #16
    Forum Member tripperff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Homer, NY
    Posts
    130

    Default

    After reading some of the possible solutions to the questions posed by this thread I think there are still a few things that need to be addressed-

    With the Cobra tool you have a whole big bag of new things to deal with even if you can justify the cost, such as:

    Support-after a quick scan of the website I learned this is a Swedish company. Do they have a US Dealer? If so do they maintain/repair the equipment or just sell it? If not can you justify either sending someone to Sweden to learn all this or have someone come to you to do it? From the list of orders there are only 2 US Fire Depts. that have ordered one. Maybe you ought to ask them what they think about the equipment. Also what is the "media"? Is it the same as used in sandblasting or is it something you can only get from the manufacturer? ($$cha-ching$$)

    Space-looking at the pictures it looks like you'd give up an entire compartment for the equipment or if it was mounted in the bucket there might be room for a firefighter leftover. maybe.

    Weight-not of the equipment, of the water. At the advertised rate of 50 liters per minute, (about 12 and a half gallons for those who'd rather skip the math) you add about 100 pounds per minute into the space over the heads of the crews working inside. Even without the equipment damaging the sheetrock, or worse yet drop, ceiling, it's still not going to take long for all that to come down on someone's head(s). Also, and this may not be an entirely correct comparison but it gets the point across, have you ever seen someone from an interior crew AFTER some nitwit pointed a hoseline, or worse yet ladder pipe, through a vent hole? They are usually pretty cranky, and looking for whoever is responsible for par-boiling them.

    Finally, and this basic problem crops up in ALL solutions to cutting from the bucket, if by some miracle you run into the "ideal" conditions (the water from the tool turns 100% to steam and doesn't damage the ceiling), How are you going to open that ceiling from the bucket?? Move the bucket over the hole and use a 16' or 20' pike pole?

    The problems with a pole mounted hydraulic saw have mostly been addressed.

    Anything with a 7" or 8" circular saw blade is only going to give you a couple inches of cutting depth. What happens when you get to that place that has been tarred a few dozen times over the years? Or the one where the owner just put down the plywood, tarpaper and shingles over the old roof? Twice, or three times? Yes, it does happen.

    So I guess by now anyone reading this has figured out that my personal opinion is that you can't beat putting down a roof ladder, hooking in your ladder belt and firing up a good old chain/vent/rotary saw and cutting a hole then poking a 6' pole through and opening the ceiling. If the roof is too spongy to get on and do it that way then the structure will most likely vent itself very soon and you should get off the roof.....NOW!


    Remember, your most useful tool is that thing inside your helmet. Use it wisely and you'll be just fine

  17. #17
    dazed and confused Resq14's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    1,993

    Default

    Originally posted by tripperff
    So I guess by now anyone reading this has figured out that my personal opinion is that you can't beat putting down a roof ladder, hooking in your ladder belt and firing up a good old chain/vent/rotary saw and cutting a hole then poking a 6' pole through and opening the ceiling. If the roof is too spongy to get on and do it that way then the structure will most likely vent itself very soon and you should get off the roof.....NOW!
    hehe

    I'll have to agree. But it's still interesting to consider alternatives, as unconventional as they might be.
    God Bless America!Remember all have given some, but some have given all.
    Google Is Your Friend™Helpful forum tip - a "must see" if you're new here
    Click this to search FH Forums!

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts