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  1. #1
    Forum Member bjlffire's Avatar
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    Default Wanted, Sample Spec's for new pumper

    I am hoping someone will be able to share some bid spec's for a commercial pumper. We hope to start the process this fall and are looking for some examples on how you did it.

    Need ideas for 2/4 door comercial truck, 750-1000 gallon, 1250-2000 pump.

    This is for a small volly dept, needs to be simple to use and maintain.

    Thanks
    Brian


  2. #2
    MembersZone Subscriber N2DFire's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wanted, Sample Spec's for new pumper

    Originally posted by bjlffire
    This is for a small volly dept, needs to be simple to use and maintain.
    Take a look at the Rattlesnake VFPD rig's - these have got to be some of the easiest to use rigs I have ever seen.

    http://www.geocities.com/Baja/Trails/7873
    Check out the Photo Story & Pay special attention to the Page / Link titles "If we did it again". This is a straightforward no BS commentary of things they have had problems with and how they would remedy it if building a new truck from scratch.

    Be forewarned (in advance ) that these rigs may be a little large overall for what you're looking for, but they have some great ideas that you can use.
    Last edited by N2DFire; 08-27-2003 at 09:22 AM.
    Take Care - Stay Safe - God Bless
    Stephen
    FF/Paramedic
    Instructor

  3. #3
    Forum Member bjlffire's Avatar
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    Default

    Rattle Snakes and church/Fallon, both have great rigs.
    We just can swing the 500,000 + for a truck.

    We will try to incorporate some of there ideas. I like the donut
    roll hose lay's.

  4. #4
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    The same Rat and Fal rigs were built last year in Grasshopper Valley MT, Marion VA, and Squaw Oregon with price tags of 135 to 200K.

    Annaville rigs are 400K, and the three that finally work work really well.

    Marion VA 75' quints were 408K each.

    Lets look at how:

    But a demo that is on the line make simple minor changes.

    Ask for 1, 2, or 3 year old demos and modify them a tad.

    Cancel the pump panel. Say use a fire research governor pressure gauge combo. Use wyes on the discharges or exterior removable valves thiefs etc, No pressure gauges, charge handles or drains. You just lost 90 controls and labels.

    Add a few hose bed divered.

    Tell them to keep the check valve on the tank to pump.

    Cancel all the warning light and siren controls in the cab. You just need one on and off switch for each.

    Add a pump and roll pump, if wanted mid ship or front mount.

    Go make your dream bumper to bolt on their rig. Multiple preconnects, jaws reels and tooles etc. isn't that half the cool stuff on the big three?

    Hydraulic generator is too expensive...so ask for four magnafire 12 volt lights that put out 650 watts of flood each and fix one four directions. Place in cab swithces labeled front, driver passenger and rear. At most $3000

    Add a squirrel tail if you are rural 3 inch is ideal for most 4 inch a bit better. what 600 bucks?

    If rural, Don't settle for the 750 or 1000 tank a 1250, 1500 or 1750 can be mounted on a base rig on just two axles. Might add $3000

    If hose is more important have them raise the side walls, Bethoud CO did and carries 8000 feet of five inch per demo Ferrara pumper.

    A water powered foam system no electricity or pumps needed like a robwin can be added to the attack lines for 4K

    Have them plumb and wire the expensive stuff like a remote control guns, you add the gun later yourself for a lot less, Stang costs the less


    same with Big water level lights, have them wire them you add four ford turn signals,

    air hose or manual cord reels they plumb the stuff you want to last forever you finish them off with the cord and reels when you can afford it or get around to it. Four cord reels will allow you to match anyone flood light wise.

    One 1000 watt hallide from a harware store plumbed by the dealer to your generator by the dealer will provide the same lighting as 4 of the best 1500 watt flood lights.

    A 10 dollar homedepot light on the end of a 75 dollar cord reel with Lowes cord sure is less than the 250, 300 and 100 dollar jobs and is just a good.

    Genisis sells a cutter, preader, two hoses, a duo pump for a mere 10K, TOTAL

    Have them put a honda in cab starter for you, you add the generator later in the dunnage area next to where reels are normally carried, have them plumb the wire only, a trip to Sears and the genrator is yours, at least that is what those folks above did for rat, ann and fal abilities.

    Want more ladders bolt them on. There is nothing wrong with a commercial chassis and base engine.

    What is more people are dumping perfectly good newer pumpers just don't buy them from a dealer find who is getting new and ask. Hows this a 1997 with 55oo miles 1500 gpm 1500 tank two axle 4 door rig, gun, 6 precons, foam floods, 90K from the FD, or same thing with a 1000 pump cost, 14,000 miles 70K. Both were listed until they went off add with dealers for 175 and 120. heck it is only money, I ran down both FD and bought them.

    How about a international year 2000

    Small builder are more likely to allow you to do whatever you want to get your business, and the big guys can if they want to and have their dealers finish what they won't do.

    Supeiror, the canadian E-one dealer will do front mounts, want a really short 1500 gpm pumper with 1500 water tank and a ton of hose four door cab, free pump and roll...and spend less than 200K? That is a real easy way and Darley can dothe same.

    You think of the feature Fallon, Rattlesnake, Annaville, any of the really well tought out rigs has and I bet you the members of this board can tell you the simple low cost way of getting there.

    This stuff isn't that hard.

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    Default

    That rattlesnake rig has to be the most inivating bomb I have had the pleasure of viewing for many many years. Someone has definitely done their homework.

    Again, what was the price tag????



    STILL STANDING!!!!!

  6. #6
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    Here is the front bumper Station2 was talking about.

    http://www.geocities.com/annavillefd/

    And the demos with 8000 foot 5 inch supply beds

    http://www.berthoudfire.org/stations/apparatus.htm

  7. #7
    Forum Member bjlffire's Avatar
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    Default Hopes become reality

    Our hopes have become a reality, I was notified today of our award of a FIRE ACT grant for a New Pumper.

    We will start the work as soon as our city council appoints a committe.

    All of the posts are great.

    Thanks
    and keep them comming

    Brian Fowler
    New London Missouri Fire Dept.

  8. #8
    Forum Member bjlffire's Avatar
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    Default

    hazenfd: Where can I find info on the others.



    The same Rat and Fal rigs were built last year in Grasshopper Valley MT, Marion VA, and Squaw Oregon with price tags of 135 to 200K.

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    bjl

    If your dept. has 500k to drop on a new rig, why would you go commercial? You will more bang for your buck with a custom.

    I've seen the Rat and Fal rigs in magazines. I think those trucks have a ton of "over specked" items that are doomed for failure as the trucks age. They seem to have more electric wires and pneumatic components than the space shuttles. I agree with some of the items and systems on those rigs, but theres over kill as well.



    CaptD

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    Why would you go commercial? Could it be 350,000 of that chassis are built each year versus no more than 700 of any custom firefighting chassis? Possibly the one has more real world trial and error experience than the other by a factor of 400 to 1. Same engine, transmission, pump, bodies, etc as a custom. What else is there? Everyone at the shop has seen the Freightshakers before but never your custom job. Maybe it is because there are a ton of parts around? Can you buy brand new tires for $17 a piece on your custom job? They can, name brand too! things like windshields cost less. Do you have central tire inflation on your custom, is it even available like theirs? If pray tell you had to hit someone head on with your fire turck, true or false, someon will have to go through 7 feet fo engine before they get to the driver and officers feet and legs versus what 12 inches of tin bumper with a custom? There are what 48,000 emergency vehicle accidents in the US a year? In the end it is choice. Customs and commercials are all doing the job somewhere, their 400 ho motors are moving the rigs just fine.


    You say they, "have a ton of "over specked" items that are doomed for failure as the trucks age." Tell us about them. For whatever it is worth, the Fal rigs have 65,000 to 128,000 miles on each, a mere 400,000 between them. When will they start falling apart? What item or items on their rigs are doomed for failure and why aren't they failing? We have guys who went to both FD's other than plastic bodies in Rat they are pretty happy. Fal is to.

    You say. "They seem to have more electric wires and pneumatic components than the space shuttles." They are both plumbed (same builders)like their water systems, one 8/4 wire to each side of the rig that runs left or right floods and cord reels, I bet you have a circuit to each light and appliance on your rig, so wouldn't yours have a greater chance of failure? Pneumatic??? One air line to an reel and a Cafs system plumbed with pipe. So where is the failure going to occur there? You have more air lines on your brake system and air consditioning than they do, right?

    You state, "theres over kill as well." It seems thier insurance ratings (better than any FD in your state Florida), both the best in their state, huge memberships crews of 7 to 10 per rig, total support of their taxpayers, much much lower fire taxes in their areas than most FD's in the counry by several magnatudes, absolutely butt simple apparatus, things like automatic electronic accountability systems that almost no one owns, in cab gps navigation and cvomputers, radio interfasce integration sytems to connect and combine any radio system any channel into a network, 100% standardization of a fleet, sprinkled stations, thermal imaging two or more per rig, new air packs and turnouts for everyone every five years, no more water supply problems, and a reason for what they are doing more than makes their case for what they do and how they do it doesn't it? So tell us about over kill.

    Maybe you could tell us what department you are with so we can compare your apparatus feature for feature. Over or under kill for over or underkill or under spec'd and over spec'd item for item.

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    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    Default Oh no, here we go again.......HI LARRY!!!!

    DRA177- Now you've gone and done it.....You made fun of Larry's (WHOOPS!!!!) I mean errr....ahhhh.....HazenFD's pride and joy- the Churchill-Fallon Monster rigs! I strongly suspect that HazenFD is none other than LHS* himself, our old buddy Larry Stevens.....Dont argue with him. No matter what you say, no matter what you do....You will be wrong. Resistance is Futile!

    HI LARRY! HOW ARE YA? WE MISSED YA! How's Fire-Rescue Magazine?? Ohhhhh I'm sorry.....Sore subject!

    FTM-PTB-EGH-RFB

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    Forum Member bjlffire's Avatar
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    FWDbuff: What the hell was that all about!!

    I am looking for information, Ideas and a way to get the best truck I can for the Grant we have been awarded.

    We will be going commercial. but I have gotten alot of, what I think are good ideas from Rat and Fal.

    Look at the preconnects, I think that is way better than crosslays where you have to climb the truck and takes 2 men to do it.

    I know it will be a High dollar option, but come on the remote/cab control bumper guns are great. If I can pull up to a car fire and not have to drag hose or even get out of the cab, with somtimes only 2 men to start with, thats great.


    Please, I hope this does not offend anyone.

    But, again, I want to get the best, most efficeint, easy to use and durable truck I can for my $180,00.00.

    Leave me some ideas and I can decide if they will work for me and my department.



    Thank You

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    Default On the subject....

    Brian,

    If you check out www.ferrarafire.com they have specs you can print out for a commercial cab pumper. They are stripped down and very basic but you can print them out and have something to start with... Make sure you geralize the parts that seem manufactuer specific. And just so you have something to go by, I think that rig goes for around $110k.

    -Nick

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    Man, Haz nice "term paper" response. I was making a "general" statement about wiring, why? Because I have no clue as to how those trucks are wired nor do I care too. I was not bashing Churchill FD, but you came to their rescue anyway! I tip my hat to their organization for being proactive and having a community that supports them.

    With that said lets get back to the trucks. Those trucks were clearly specked to help reduce the ISO rating, which is fine. Like having two hydraulic ladder racks per unit with X amount of feet of ladders. Now do you think they would ever come close to using a third of those at any one given time? Most likely they will not, ya..ya I know they have them if they need them. Would I like to have some of the components those trucks have on ours? Damn right I would, but our budget will not afford us those luxuries.

    "Doomed for failure" I as talking about manitenance issue's especially with that many components. Churchill avg. 400 calls per year so with any luck they will not have such problems arrise, but things brake and they got allot of things.

    You want to compare my dept. engines with Churchill's? What you be your point? There is no comparison not even close.

    Oh..one more thing, ISO ratings don't put out fires! Out of the thousand's of departments nation wide theres only 40 with a one rating and three of those are in Florida.

    CaptD

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    You say, "Those trucks were clearly specked to help reduce the ISO rating," light towers and flood lights don't count nor does the 2000 some odd feet of power cord, pump and roll pumps, at least 80% of ther loose equipment carried, the 10 man cabs don't get ISO credit or the 12 spare bottles, CAFS, all those pike poles, all the master streams, extrication gear, foam nozzles, the triple foam systems and four foam tanks, imagers, accountability system, moving map, computers, etc Doesn't seem so clearly, care to expand on the post?

    Nor does, "having two hydraulic ladder racks per unit with X amount of feet of ladders." The racks pack a lot more that the ISO requirement, so are they clearly spec'd to another criteria. Like maybe need.
    "Now do you think they would ever come close to using a third of those at any one given time?" I don't know, Apparently they have and do. Does anyone else carry extra ground ladders over ISO or NFPA? Yes do they use them? NFPA ground ladder standardfs have become a joke. Every rig in Boston, LA, Chicago and many more places carry more ladders, if anything seems like a more practical version of what Chicago does, two 1 story, two 2 story and 3 three story ladders per rig and a good selection of roof ladders.

    You state, "ISO ratings don't put out fires!"
    Maybe not, but the better the grade the lower the loss according to the insurance industries own data:
    Loss per $1000 valuation
    Class Commercial Residential Class Commercial Residential
    1 $0.25 $0.37 6 $0.45 $0.55
    2 $0.30 $0.37 7 $0.55 $0.75
    3 $0.35 $0.42 8 $0.60 $0.78
    4 $0.37 $0.45 9 $0.68 $0.79
    5 $0.38 $0.49 10 $0.85 $1.10
    Seems pretty clear, 90 years worth of data from every community seems to indicate a much lower rate of fire loss, doesn't it?

    Out of thousand's of departments nation wide theres only 40 with a one rating and three of those are in Florida.
    Three in the U.S. are volunteer, seems that is harder to achieve than with a paid outfit.

    Back to the main topic,
    Here's a start, 1500 gpm top mount pumper, 4 door diesel automatic, high sides, 24'/14' 5 SCBA seats, front suction, 1000 feet 5 inch bed, 6000 miles on it, traded in on fleet replacement, front bumper 1 ¾ precon, two crosslays and a booster. Easily simplified to incorporate rat or fal or anna i1deas. available for $110,000

    Simply contact the dealer or favorite fire turck shop and with the 60K you have left:
    Fully equip the rig.
    Then have the dealer modify the truck, like: Cancel the pump panel. Say use a fire research governor pressure gauge combo. Use wyes on the discharges or exterior removable valves thiefs etc, No pressure gauges, charge handles or drains. You just lost 90 controls and labels.

    Add a few hose bed diverers and or increase the hose bed volume..

    Tell them to remove the check valve on the tank to pump.

    Cancel all the warning light and siren controls in the cab. You just need one on and off switch for each.

    Go make your dream bumper, it is 24 inch extended, Multiple preconnects, jaws reels and tooles etc. isn't that half the cool stuff on the big three?

    Hydraulic generator is too expensive...so ask for four magnafire 12 volt lights that put out 650 watts of flood each and fix one four directions. Place in cab swithces labeled front, driver passenger and rear. At most $3000

    Add a squirrel tail if you are rural 3 inch is ideal for most 4 inch a bit better. what 600 bucks?

    A water powered foam system no electricity or pumps needed like a robwin can be added to the attack lines for 4K

    Have them plumb and wire the expensive stuff like a remote control guns, you add the gun later yourself for a lot less, Stang costs the less

    same with Big water level lights, have them wire them you add four ford turn signals,

    air hose or manual cord reels they plumb the stuff you want to last forever you finish them off with the cord and reels when you can afford it or get around to it. Four cord reels will allow you to match anyone flood light wise.

    One 1000 watt hallide from a harware store plumbed by the dealer to your generator by the dealer will provide the same lighting as 4 of the best 1500 watt flood lights.

    A 10 dollar homedepot light on the end of a 75 dollar cord reel with Lowes cord sure is less than the 250, 300 and 100 dollar jobs and is just a good.

    Genisis sells a cutter, preader, two hoses, a duo pump for a mere 10K, TOTAL

    Have them put a honda in cab starter for you, you add the generator later in the dunnage area next to where reels are normally carried, have them plumb the wire only, a trip to Sears and the genrator is yours, at least that is what those folks above did for rat, ann and fal abilities.

    That is what Squaw, Kingston and Grasshopper did with their grants last year, this year they have new lower ISO ratings.
    Odds are you'd and the community would be better served with a fully equipped simple rig than a brand new one that is stripped and complex.

  16. #16
    Forum Member bjlffire's Avatar
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    Simple is what I want, New is what I have to have(that is what my grant says)

    Liley a 2 door cab, 1250 min pump, 1000 gallon min tank.
    The rest is NFPA then ISO then what we want extra.

    We want foam, havnt check the CAFS prices yet, I think that would be a good investment(have all the studies).

    I like the preconnects in a roll.
    I like the idea of simple pump panel/gates and valves at the line.
    We want a deck and preconnected Blitz device.

    What Manufacture did Squaw,Kingston and Grasshopper use, and where can I find some Pic's?

  17. #17
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    Default Just agree with everything he says

    Let me tell you guys a little about HazenFD:

    His name is Larry. I (and others here on the boards) know his full name, but for reasons of his retribution, I will not post his full name. He has come in the threads as LHS*, LHS, and some other names that I can't think of right now. If egos could be measured in physical size, his would be measured in miles and tons. He is (or at least was, I dont know what his current status is) a member of the Fallon-Churchill FD.

    I DO know that he is NO longer an editor and writer for Fire-Rescue magazine, and that every time you ask him what happened, he either changes the subject, ignores you all together, or dissappears and re-appears as a new name: hence HazenFD......Notice he only has 10 posts.....

    He will make posts.....he will sound like a know-it-all because he IS a know-it-all. He is arrogant, cocky, and a MUTT. He degraded FDNY for operations and decisions made at the WTC on 9-11, which basically sealed his fate for ever having any credibility ever again. Should you make the mistake of questioning him or making negative comments (I tried to warn you guys about that earlier) he will turn everything around, and make you appear stupid. If you present evidence proving him wrong (HEY LARRY- WHAT ABOUT THAT FEMA REPORT ON ONE MERIDIAN PLAZA IN PHILADELPHIA WHERE I PROVED YOU WRONG???? YOU NEVER CAME BACK WITH A COMMENT?????) he will turn everything around to make himself sound right. Resistance is futile. Suggested course of action is to ignore him. Should you choose to respond to his posts, agree with everything he says. Trust me, it will take less time and use less space here in the forums.

    Anyhoo.....as for your sample specifications, contact any manufacturer. They are usually more than happy to send out a few customer specs, their own specs, and sales literature. I know that HME has a feature called "build-a-truck" on their website (hmetrucks.com) where you sign up, and then go through all their features and options, and build your own chassis. Afterwards, they will give you a ballpark figure on the cost, and a factory rep will even contact you if you wish.

    FTM-PTB-EGH-RFB

  18. #18
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    Write a simple, but specific, bulleted-line item spec. It will give you the most generic, competitive and effective spec you can create.

    That’s what we did for our ’93 International, which goes out for refurbishment this month, and saved a bundle. We were originally working with one of the ‘big five’. Had we used their spec, we would be paying out $70,000 right now. A high-quality local shop which specializes in refurbs not only beat their bid, but cut the price in half.


    Our upgrade will be very similar to what HazenFD outlines above. For $35,000, we’re getting all of the standard refurbishment work: complete strip-down and repaint, new lettering and Scotchlite triple striping, pump overhaul, complete NFPA warning light upgrade, Poly tank inspection and repair, a Class 1 load management system, and repair of broken doors and crunched diamond plate.

    We get all new H.O. Bostrom SCBA seats to replace the old bench-style ones, incremental water level lights, a rear direct tank fill, and spray-in compartment lining.

    The hosebed will be enlarged to hold 2,000 feet of color-coded Angus Hi-Vol 5” in dual beds, and we get a squirrel tail suction and TurboDraft preconnect added.

    A Fire Research Focus Optimum 150 watt instant-on metal halide floodlight will be mounted on all four sides, facing away from the truck, with switches in the cab.

    We simplified wherever possible:

    We get a bunch of new ground lights, but no switch. They’ll go on when an adjacent door is open, and automatically activated when the apparatus’ headlights are on and the parking break is set.

    All the new in-cab red night-lighting will go on when adjacent doors are ajar, and all but the driver’s will go on automatically with the headlights, so that firefighters won’t have to get unbuckled and fumble around for a switch in the dark with gloved hands.

    With the addition of all our new warning lights, we asked them to throw out all the switches but the master and an auto-reset white light cutout switch for driving in thick fog and snow.

    We’re still talking about pump panel simplification and a bumper extension with jaws.

    A low cost Zico pool-style ladder for topside access is a nice addition if there is room for it.

    We even get some goodies like polished wheel covers, On-Spot tire chains, and custom equipment mounting.


    When it comes back, the rig will be fully functional and ready to make its final debut before moving into reserve status. Next spring we go out to bid for two brand-new Fallon style rigs. They’ll have huge pumps, MASSIVE hose beds, and all the good stuff that the Fallon, Rattlesnake, and Annaville rigs have. As they’re coming off the assembly line, our 2001 pumper-tanker will be sent in for a complete upgrade to come back and match the new ones.

    When all is said and done, we should have a fully functional, volunteer friendly, ISO ready, fire-eating fleet that’s the envy of any department.

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    Love to see your refurb, when you get a chance email me some shots chiefmikeC@aol.com

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    FWD

    I've heard you'll talk about this guy on other post and was aware.
    The funny thing is, it took me ten minutes to make my post. I did not research all the technical data because I don't care.


    Hazen

    I did not read your post - way to long! Try getting your point across in under three paragraphs, your posts resemble the Code of Federal Regulations.


    CaptD

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