Fdny too white too male??

[OFD226]

FDNY too white too male? Who are these people to state what the racial or gender makeup of the fire department should be? If more minorities applied, then more minorities would be accepted, it's as simple as that. There was even a statement that the test relied too much on physical strength!!!

It doesn't matter to me what the person dragging me or my family out of the building looks like as long as they can do the God d--n job!! God reporters SUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!! This make anybody else as mad as I?
?

[FFFRED]

It only takes a casual read to find that the individual who wrote this little piece didn't properly research the subject. They drew on many misconceptions about how the process works and who administers it.

FACT= You can't make anyone apply for a job they don't want.

FACT= This job is physically demanding and any applicants shall meet OUR standards. Lives after all do hang in the balance.

FACT= The CPAT has been cerified as an acurate test of physcial job requirements for firefighters. Not as the article claims "Women are graded against an abstract standard established years ago"

As if firefighting is any less physically demanding today than 6 years ago when the IAFF/ICHIEFS Heath and Fitness Initiative formed. And as everone who bothers to look into it or take it...the CPAT is far from abstract.

The writer never supports the claim that the blacks and females are "constantly discouraged". Funny that huge recruiting campaign in subways, high schools and all over the city, especaily in miniority communities doesn't seem like discouragement. You would have had to have been blind not to see the billboards. (Although this Mutt would probably make a case for too few blind persons in the FDNY)

The FDNY Fitness Unit provides a class at NYSC that women can take that helps prepare them for the physical, months in advance. They receive advice on proper training and diet. Most Cities I know do not do this to the extent FDNY does. Far from the claim of being "hostile to women's entry".

Although if you equate not lowering standards so as to allow fat-FU**s on the job then sure I guess that could be considered hostile as any attempt to do so threatens the lives of the members of the Dept and citizens at large...it seems no Chief wants to live with that as his legacy...hmm I wonder why.

I'm sure that there are plenty of qualified Women and Minorities who would do just fine...however it seems they haven't taken the exam because they do not like the pay, hours, risk of injury and death or whatever.

You take the test, you pass the test, you get hired...it is that simple, no BS. PERIOD.

FTM-PTB

[OFD226]

VERY well stated...

OFD226
(also a FOOLS member)
FTM-PTB

[erics99]

This ticked me off when I read it as well. It makes the FDNY look bad to the general public that read this BS article, because after all, the newspapers only publish the truth right .

[E229Lt]

" ALL THE FITS THAT'S NEWS TO PRINT"

[12282002]

While the New York Post may not have all the facts correct, some of the responses in the post amount to blind faith in the hiring practices of FDNY. If FDNY uses the CPAT test (which was validated by multiple cities around the nation), why can women still not pass it? I live in Austin, TX (a city that participated in the validation of the CPAT) and we have a large number of female FF's. One has to admit that 0.0025% (the percentage of femal FF's) is an incredibly small number. Despite the supposed difficulties of the CPAT for females, what would be the defenders of FDNY's repsonse to the lack of minority members. Surely, it is not only white men who are willing to perform a dangerous job, be away from their families, and have financial difficulties because of low pay. Let's look at this article from the point of policymakers, for they are the ones who discourage female and minority FF's. One can hardly blame the frontline responders. Pony up with responses, I'm interested to discuss this.

[Scoop422]

This is kind of off-topic, but the Toronto Star published a front page story that the Toronto Blue Jays discriminated because there are no Asians on the team and more Whites than any other team.

[FFFRED]

12282002,

I'll further clarify some of the issues at hand.

I'm not sure if the blind faith comment is directed towards me...but since I have gone through the process begining to end I have a pretty good idea how it works and what is involved.

-I can't tell you why women in Austin have been hired and in NY they are not. I imagine your system is completely different than ours.

The test is administered by the Dept of City Wide Adminstrative Services (DCAS). It has no ties to the FDNY and our Civil Service Exam system is designed to hire on the merit system. There is NO interview or FD input. You score high on the written and pass the CPAT you will get hired as you number comes up...provided you pass the background exam...which isn't hard. It is that simple. Women are not passed over, Minorities are not passed over. They are hired when their number comes up. Period

After 9-11 and even before the dangers of being a member of the FDNY have been widely known, thanks to plenty of media coverage not only of 9-11 but everday fires.
Just ask any group of kids in 5 Boros, "What do they want to be when they grow up?" and many tell us they want to be doctors, football players..etc. But not firefighters. When asked why they reply "they don't want to die." No recruitment campaign can work against that.

I realize you wouldn't understand living in Austin TX. But the last exam had a profesional ad firm develop a campaign to hire more minorities and women. They had vans that would park in the middle of minoritiy communities and push the local residents into signing up for the test. They would go to High Schools and sign up 100s (17yr olds can take the test but not be appointed until 21) Hand bills were posted all over on buses and trains, streets...you name it. And what was the result...Although the list isn't completed it appears they have a lower percentage of women and minorities that took this test than the previous test in '99. and they spent way more money this time promoting it.

The CPAT was not designed to have "women pass it" as you put it. It was developed to acurately reflect the duties, strength and endurance required to perfom the job of a firefighter. If women or men for that matter can't pass it...then too bad they need to work-out more or find a different job because not everyone was made to be a firefighter.

Today it seems just wanting something is justification enough to make that person quaified for the job. I would like to be a pro-football player but alas my parents gave me genes that didn't provide me with the body for it. I don't expect the NFL to lower their standards so I can play. And I don't expect my FD to lower their standards just so some tubby fat-body can get on.

Just passing the CPAT doesn't gauarntee a job for anyone. You must still past a medical exam which involves a stairmaster and monitoring of heart rate.

Then once accepted for appointment one must still graduate from the academey. This past class lost 20 probies who couldn't hack it.

Comparing the NYPD to the FD is unfair and not even close to being apples to apples. The PD accademy is a joke compared to the FDNY Probationary Firefighters School. Just ask and FDNY members who were former cops. Like the old saying goes: "If this job was easy, the cops would do it."

And for the same money one could take any number of other city exams for jobs that pay roughly the same with alot less work...or in some cases more money.

This might clear up some of the misconceptions you might have.

The FD is not the place to try a social experiment...nothing short of physcical strenght and calm & collected thought will help extinguish a fire. Fire doesn't care is your dept is racially ballanced or what percentage of women you have. Diversity at the expense of intelligence and strength is nothing more than a Death Sentance for the Brothers and civilians who rely on qualifed applicants to take FF jobs.

FTM-PTB

[FizzBRFD]

Well stated FFFred, I agree 100%.

[12282002]

Thanks for the reply so far. A couple of points. First of all, I could not agree with you more that a person should not be hired to fill a quota, they should be hired because they are the best-equipped to perform a specific job. I also agree that taking a test (and even passing it) does not guarantee a right to a position. Unfortunately, many in the world and in the current economic conditions have not realized this. If my department were to ever kowtow to hiring based on racial preferences, myself and the union would make a huge stink.

That all being said, I still think there is some valid criticism for FDNY (and other departments, unfortunately FDNY is the highest profile department around). Personally, what are your feelings on minority/women FF's. I'm sure that you don't mind them in the firehouse per se, but do you feel that your department is doing enough to recruit/retain them. If you feel that they do, I would be interested in learning what your department does. If you feel like there's room for improvement, what would you do as chief for a day? I know that my department has a nationwide recruiting machine that promotes our size, salary, and city. All in all, I think that my department is doing a good job of increasing women/minority FF's.

[DonnellyFire]

FFFRED.
RIGHT ON BUDDY!

[mallethead]

12282002,

You say you are against quotas yet you agree with recruiting. What do you think this so-called "recruiting" is? Let's be realistic here. Where are these fire depts. doing their recruiting? In minority neighborhoods. Why? To fill a quota system whether they admit it or not. Why else would they only recruit in these places. You don't see alot of fire depts. going around recruiting in middle class white neighborhoods.

I work for a dept. that serves a population of over 500,000 and when we hire, the only advertisment is in the minority neighborhoods and black radio stations.

My point is if your going to recruit, recruit everywhere or don't do it. As someone said earlier, you can't force people to apply for this job. The bottom line is if you want the job, apply for it. If you are the best and most qualified to do the job, you get hired. Period.

Are job is unlike any other. Hiring someone because of the color of their skin or what they don't have between their legs can get somebody killed.

[E40FDNYL35]

Firefighter Application/Appointment Process

All firefighters are appointed from a civil service list of eligibles, in list order, who have passed both a competitive multiple choice & physical fitness examination, as well as a medical, pyschological and background investigation. There are no exceptions to this process, regardless of prior firefighting experience.

Once every three years the Department offers the public an opportunity to file an application to take the firefighter examination. Applications are not made available to the public prior to the actual release of the Notification of Examination. The lists that are generated from the firefighter exams usually last 4 years. The actual time frame from filing, to taking the examination, to the creation of the list of passers from that examination could take one or more years, depending on the needs of the Department.

The last written firefighter examination was administered on December 14, 2002. The next written examination will not be offered until sometime in 2005. Click here for current list and appointment updates.


The Firefighter Physical test is currently being administered to those candidates from the Promotion to Firefighter Exam & Open-Competitive Firefighter Exam who passed the December 14th multiple-choice written test.


In order to be appointed, you must:

Pass both the written and physical exams and have your name placed on the Firefighter list;


Pass a medical exam and background investigation;


Be a minimum of 21 years of age and a U.S. citizen;


Have 30 college credits or 2 years of satisfactory military service (see FAQ);


Hold a motor vehicle driver's license valid in the State of New York;


Be a resident of the NYC or Nassau, Westchester, Suffolk, Orange, Rockland or Putnam Counties.
CFR-D Info: For those probationary firefighters who lack a CFR-D certification, the FDNY will provide on the job training, and upon receipt of the certification, payroll deductions for the cost of the training will commence.See the Notice of Examination for the details.

CFR-D Class Info: See Below

CFR-D COURSES

If you are interested in finding out about CFR-D courses, you may call:

REMSCO at (212) 870-2301 for courses within the five boroughs
(516) 542-0025 for courses Nassau
(631) 853-5800 for courses Suffolk
(845) 567-6740 for courses in Hudson Valley Region
(Rockland Country, Orange County,Westchester County)

NYS Department of Health EMT Program
Telephone: (914) 654-7111
For courses outside the five boroughs

[E40FDNYL35]

THE CITY OF NEW YORK DEPARTMENT OF CITYWIDE ADMINISTRATIVE SERVICES
APPLICATIONS CENTER
18 WASHINGTON STREET
NEW YORK, NY 10004
N O T I C E O F E X A M I N A T I O N
READ CAREFULLY AND SAVE FOR FUTURE REFERENCE
FIREFIGHTER
ACCOMMODATIONS” sections.
WHAT THE JOB INVOLVES: Under supervision, Firefighters assist in the control and extinguishment of fires, in providing pre-hospital emergency medical care, and in the enforcement of laws, ordinances, rules and regulations regarding the prevention, control and extinguishment of fires, as well as perform Fire Safety
Education activities; perform inspections and related enforcement duties to assure compliance with provision of Fire Prevention Code and applicable section of Building Code, multiple Dwelling Code, Housing Maintenance Code, Labor Law and other laws, rules, regulations, within enforcement purviews of Fire Department; perform inspection of equipment and schedule as necessary the maintenance of various tools and equipment, including but not limited to S.C.B.A. power tools, company apparatus, and personal safety equipment; and perform related work. Some of the physical activities performed by Firefighters and environmental conditions experienced are:
wearing protective clothing, such as bunker suit, helmet, boots and breathing apparatus; crawling, crouching and standing, often for prolonged periods, while extinguishing fires; driving fire apparatus and other Department vehicles; climbing stairs, ladders and fire escapes; raising portable ladders; using forcible entry
tools, such as axes, sledge hammers, power saws and hydraulic tools; searching for victims in smoke-filled hostile environments; carrying or dragging victims from dangerous locations; connecting, stretching and operating hose lines; locating hidden fire by feel and smell; providing medical assistance to injured or ill
citizens; and providing control and mitigation of hazardous materials incidents while wearing chemical protective clothing.
(This is a brief description of what you might do in this position and does not include all the duties of thisposition.)
THE SALARY: The current minimum salary is $32,724 per annum. This rate is subject to change. In addition, employees will receive holiday pay and night differential.
HOW TO APPLY: There are two ways to apply for this exam:
1. Online at the DCAS Website: If you wish to apply online, browse to Online-Apps at
http://nyc.gov/applyforexams, and follow the on-screen application instructions for filling out any
required forms and electronically submitting your application. Fees for applications submitted
online are payable only with a valid credit card.
Exam. No. 2043 - Page 2
2. By mail: If you believe you meet the requirements in the “How to Qualify” section, refer to the
“Required Forms” section below for the form (s) that you must fill out. Return all completed form (s)
and the application fee to DCAS Applications Section, 1 Centre Street, 14th floor, New York, NY
10007. Fees for applications submitted by mail are payable only by money order to D.C.A.S.
(EXAMS).
Applications will not be accepted in person.
CFR-D REQUIREMENT: You will be required to possess Certified First Responder Certification with
Defibrillation (CFR-D) by the end of your probationary period. This certification must be maintained for the
duration of employment.
Note: If you do not possess a CFR-D at the time of appointment, you will be required to obtain CFR-D training
at your own expense, either at a training program of your own choosing or a training program provided by
FDNY. The training course provided by FDNY will cost $775, although that cost is subject to change based
upon the latest collective bargaining agreements regarding uniformed services salaries and the number of
training hours in effect at the time of training. Upon successful completion of FDNY’s CFR-D course and
receipt of your CFR-D certificate, payroll deductions will commence at a rate of $30 per pay period until the
total cost is recouped by FDNY.
HOW TO QUALIFY:
Education and Experience Requirements: By the date of appointment, you must have
(1) successfully completed 30 semester credits from an accredited college or university, or
(2) a four year high school diploma or its educational equivalent and have completed two years of
honorable full-time U.S. military service.
You may be given the test before we check your qualifications.
Driver License Requirement: By the time you are appointed to this position, you must have a motor vehicle
driver license valid in the State of New York. This license must be maintained for the duration of your
employment.
Medical and Psychological Requirements: Medical and psychological guidelines have been established for
the position of Firefighter. Candidates will be examined to determine whether they can perform the essential
functions of the position of Firefighter. Additionally, employees will be expected to continue to perform the
essential functions of the position of Firefighter throughout their careers, and may, therefore, be medically
tested periodically throughout their careers. Where appropriate, a reasonable accommodation will be provided
for a person with a disability to enable him or her to take these medical and psychological examinations, and/or
to perform the essential functions of the job.
Drug Screening Requirement: You must pass a drug screening in order to be appointed. Drug tests will also
be administered to all probationary Firefighters as part of the medical examination prior to the completion of
probation.
Residency Requirement: The New York Public Officers Law requires that any person employed as a
Firefighter in the Fire Department of New York be a resident of the City of New York or of Nassau,
Westchester, Suffolk, Orange, Rockland or Putnam Counties.
English Requirement: Candidates must be able to understand and be understood in English.
Proof of Identity: Under the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986, you must be able to prove your
identity and your right to obtain employment in the United States prior to employment with the City of New
York.
Citizenship Requirement: United States citizenship is required at the time of appointment.
Age Requirement: Pursuant to Section 54 of the New York Civil Service Law and Section 15-103 of the
Administrative Code, you must be at least 17½ years of age by the end of the application period and you must
not have reached your twenty-ninth birthday by the beginning of the application period to be eligible to take this
examination. However, you must have reached your twenty-first birthday to be eligible for appointment.
Exception to the Age Requirement: All persons who were engaged in military duty as defined in Section 243
of the New York State Military Law may deduct from their actual age the length of time spent in such military
duty provided the total deduction for military duty does not exceed six years.
Exam. No. 2043 - Page 3
Character and Background: Proof of good character and satisfactory background will be an absolute
prerequisite to appointment. In accordance with provisions of law, persons convicted of a felony or who have
received a dishonorable discharge from the Armed Forces are not eligible for appointment to this position.
REQUIRED FORM(S):
Application for Examination: Make sure that you follow all instructions included with your application form,
including payment of fee. Save a copy of the instructions for future reference.
THE TEST: There will be a written multiple-choice test, weight 50, and a physical test, weight 50. The pass
mark for the written test will be determined after an analysis of the test results.
The written test is designed to test the candidate’s ability to learn and to perform the work of a Firefighter.
It may include questions involving the understanding of written language and information, using language to
communicate information or ideas to other people, memorizing information, recognizing or identifying the
existence of problems, applying general rules to specific situations, applying prioritized rules to specific
situations, determining position or spatial orientation within a larger area, visualizing how objects or structures
might appear from different perspectives or after changes, finding a rule or concept which fits or describes
a situation, and other related areas.
The physical test will consist of a series of events designed to test the candidate’s capacity to perform the
physical aspects of a Firefighter’s job. A more detailed description of the physical test will be made available
at a later date. Candidates called to participate in the physical test will be required to pay an additional fee
prior to taking the physical test and will be notified of the method of payment prior to the physical test. Failure
to pay the additional application fee, in a timely manner, will result in disqualification from further participation
in the examination. The additional application fee for the physical test will be waived for a New York City
resident receiving public assistance who submits a clear photocopy of a current Benefit Card at the time of the
physical test.
Candidates must pass the written test to be summoned for the physical test. Medical evidence to allow
participation in the physical test may be required.
For candidates who pass both the written and physical tests, scores on the written and physical tests will be
converted to standard scores. The standard score on each test will then be multiplied by the weight of that test,
and these products will be added resulting in a combined weighted standardized score. Ranking of candidates
will be based on this combined weighted standardized score. This combined weighted standardized score will
then be transformed to scores between 70 and 100. Only those candidates who receive a score between 70 and
100 will be credited with Veterans’ credit, if applicable, and New York City Residency credit, if applicable.
New York City Residency Credit: Five points will be added to the final exam score of those candidates who
qualify for New York City Residency Credit. To be eligible for the residency credit, a candidate must achieve
a passing score on both the written test and the physical test, and must maintain a continuous period of residency
in New York City from March 1, 2003 through March 1, 2004. Candidates interested in seeking the residency
credit will be given an opportunity to request the credit at the written examination. Candidates who pass the
written test will also be provided with an opportunity to request the credit at the time of the physical test. In
any event, all requests for the residency credit must be received by the Department of Citywide Administrative
Services, Bureau of Examinations, 1 Centre Street, 14th floor, New York, NY 10007, in writing, prior to the
establishment of the list.
Eligibility for the residency credit will be investigated by the Fire Department of New York. Candidates will
be required to produce written verification of the candidate’s New York City residency from March 1, 2003
through March 1, 2004. The documents presented must represent the period of time for which you are
claiming City residency. Inability to produce the required verification of residence documents for the
continuous period of residency will result in the forfeiture of the New York City Residency Credit and an
adjustment in the final score. Documents that will be investigated to prove New York City residency will
include, but are not limited to, a copy of a lease or mortgage in the candidate’s name plus one of the following
(also in the candidate’s name): telephone bills; gas, electric or water utility bills; checking or savings account
statements; cable TV bills; or credit card statements. The Fire Department of New York reserves the right
to accept other documents, in lieu of the above, under special circumstances which validate various living
arrangements, such as residing with parents, etc., as determined by the Department. As in the case of any
intentional misrepresentation of a material fact on an employment application, candidates who claim New York
City residency credit and who are determined to have intentionally misrepresented facts concerning New York
City residency shall be disqualified and their names shall be removed from the eligible list, and they may be
subject to criminal sanctions.
Legacy Credit: Five points will be added to the final score of those candidates who qualify for the “Legacy
Credit.” A candidate shall qualify for the “Legacy Credit” if his or her parent has died while engaged in the
discharge of his or her duties as a uniformed member of the New York City Fire Department, New York City
Police Department, New York City Transit Police Department, New York City Housing Authority Police
Department, or New York City Department of Correction.
Exam. No. 2043 - Page 4
The General Examination Regulations of the Department of Citywide Administrative Services apply to this examination and are part of
this Notice of Examination. They are posted and copies are available in the Applications Center of the Division of Citywide Personnel
Services, 18 Washington Street, NY, NY.
The City of New York is an Equal Opportunity Employer.
Title Code No. 70310; Fire Service.
For Information About Other Exams and Your Exam or List Status, Call 212-669-1357
Internet: nyc.gov/html/dcas
To be eligible for this credit, a candidate must achieve a passing score on both the written and the physical
tests.
Candidates who pass the written test and are summoned to the physical test will be able to claim legacy credit
at the physical test site. Candidates who become qualified for “Legacy Credit”after taking the physical test,
but before the date the eligible list is established, can apply by writing to DCAS, Examining Service Section,
1 Centre Street, 14th floor, New York, NY 10007. Claims for “Legacy Credit” cannot be made once the
eligible list is established. All such claims will be investigated.
ADMISSION CARD: You should receive an Admission Card in the mail about 10 days before the date of the
written test. If you do not receive an Admission Card at least 4 days before the test date, you must go to the
Examining Service Section, 1 Centre Street, 14th floor, Manhattan, to obtain a duplicate card.
THE TEST RESULTS: If you pass the multiple-choice test and physical test, your name will be placed in score
order on an eligible list and you will be given a list number. You will be notified by mail of your test results.
If you meet all requirements and conditions, you will be considered for appointment when your name is reached
on the eligible list.
ADDITIONAL INFORMATION:
Investigation: This position is subject to investigation before appointment. At the time of investigation, eligibles
will be required to pay a $50.00 fee for fingerprint screening.
At the time of investigation and at the time of appointment, eligibles must present originals or certified copies
of all required documents and proof, including, but not limited to, proof of date and place of birth by transcript
of record of the Bureau of Vital Statistics or other satisfactory evidence, naturalization papers if necessary,
proof of any military service, and proof of meeting educational requirements.
Any willful misstatement or failure to present any documents required for investigation will be cause for
disqualification.
Probationary Period: The probationary period is 12 months. As part of the probationary period, probationers
will be required to successfully complete a prescribed training course. Probationers who fail to complete
successfully such training course, at the close of such training course, may be terminated by the agency head.
List Termination: The eligible list resulting from this examination will be terminated one year from the date
it is established, unless extended by the Commissioner.
Promotion Test: A promotion examination for this title is being held for eligible City employees. The names
appearing on the promotion list will be considered first in filling vacancies.
SPECIAL TEST ACCOMMODATIONS: If you plan to request special testing accommodations due to disability
or an alternate test date due to your religious belief, and
1. you are filing an application online, follow the on-screen instructions, or
2. you are filing an application by mail, follow the instructions included with the “Application for
Examination.”

[E40FDNYL35]

1-TAKE TEST
2-PASS THE TEST
3-SCORE HIGH
4-GET JOB
GOOD LUCK TO ALL!!!

[shenry32]

All great posts so far. The bottom line is that this isn't a job that you can recruit for. Period. Black, Asian, Hispanic, White, Woman, Man...it doesn't matter, the person has to want to do the job. Recruiting, in any neighborhood, is like trying to talk people into doing our job. You know what, I don't want to work with someone who has to be talked into being a firefighter. I want to work with people who searched out the job.
Good luck to all of those Departments across the country who go out of their way to recruit, train and hire people who wouldn't normally do the job. I trust all the brothers I work with because they all truely want to do the job. They arent doing it because they were handed an application, had help filling it out and can get 2 days off and retire early.

Scott


Sorry to offend

[rookiemove]

Stumbled across this old thread doing a Web search.

It seems like no matter how much official recruiting there is, most people take the test because someone close to them, usually family, encouraged them to do it.

I've asked many of my coworkers if they encourage their daughters to be firefighters. Most said no and some said they actually discouraged their daughters' interest in firefighting. When I pressed them, most said it isn't that they don't think their daughters can do it, but that the firehouse can be a tough place for women and they don't want to see their daughters get picked on. I think that until this changes, the number of women firefighters won't grow much. Maybe the next generation will be different.

I'm curious. How many of you would encourage your daughter to be a firefighter?

[firemedic214]

It like that everywhere.... I live in North Carolina and to be hired at some of the bigger cities ie: Greensboro Raleigh.... you have to wait till the right time because they either do gender or minoirte campigans. you have to wait till they are done with these before you have a chance of being hired.

[Dave1983]

$32,724 per annum, WTF!

Its a wonder FDNY gets anyone to apply.

I dont do this job to make a fortune either, but, damn. Thats almost $4K less then we start and our job isnt half as tough as FDNY, and its cheaper to live here.

That may be the problem...

[CaptOldTimer]

Well meathead berkman is retireing from the FDNY.


I know the Brothers are happy to see that day arrive!!