Thread: WTC cross

  1. #1
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    887

    Angry WTC cross

    Sep 9, 2003 7:42 am US/Eastern
    (TRENTON, N.J.) A steel beam in the shape of a cross from the World Trade Center wreckage has drawn criticism from an atheist group.

    The American Atheists objects to the cross at ground zero because they say it's a religious emblem.

    Ellen Johnson, president of American Atheists based in New Jersey, told The Trentonian newspaper that the cross is -- in her words -- ``a Christian religious advertisement.'' Johnson said allowing the cross to remain, is -- in her words -- ``an insult to everyone who doesn't believe in that particular religion.''

    The group, founded by the late Madelyn Murray O'Hare, is considering a lawsuit to prevent the cross from becoming part of any permanent memorial to the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.

    Too bad she is so insulted, but I think there are alot more people that believe in God then don't. Tanker
    I.A.C.O.J. Firefighter/EMT-B

    "I'm gonna drill a hole in your skull and pump out all the stupidity"
    Gunny Ermey


    "Never underestimate the Power of Stupid People in Large Groups"


    Humpty Dumpty was pushed

    Polishing the Chrome on all the IACOJ "apparati"

  2. #2
    Forum Member
    PFire23's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    On a rock, surrounded by water
    Posts
    1,845

    Default

    Here's a solution for her............ if ya don't like it avert your damn eyes and DON'T look.
    To the world you might be one person, but to one person you just might be the world.

    IACOJ-WOT proud

    GO WHITE SOX!!!!!

  3. #3
    MembersZone Subscriber
    CJMinick390's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Sitting on my Laa Laa waiting for my Yaa Yaa
    Posts
    1,042

    Default

    I agree with Pfire on this one. While you have a right to express your opinion in the US, others also have the right to ignore you and/or tell you to bug off. It's gotten to the point where anything offends someone. There's lots of stuff going on that I don't like. I don't whine about it, I ignore it. This is just a way for someone to jump up and down and say "look at me."
    Chris Minick, P.E., Firefighter II
    Structures Specialist, MD-TF 1

    These statements are mine and mine alone
    I.A.C.O.J. Building crust and proud of it

  4. #4
    Fire Chaplain
    IACOJRev's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    SE Michigan
    Posts
    534

    Angry

    Don't get me started...
    Resident Chaplain of the IACOJ

  5. #5
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Posts
    2,983

    Default

    This is just a way for someone to jump up and down and say "look at me."
    CJ- I agree. If you don't like it don't look at it. If there is something I do not like to look at, I don't look at it. Along with freedom of expression, we also have freedom of choice in this country. Anyway as the Rev said...don't get me started.....

    Cheffie

  6. #6
    Forum Member
    RspctFrmCalgary's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Now in Victoria, BC. I'm from beautiful Jasper Alberta in the heart of the Can. Rockies - will always be an Albertan at heart!
    Posts
    6,329

    Default

    Don't get me started...
    That's what I just said to Tanker

    Think its a weeeeee bit more important of a cause to fight for to make sure that the victims who have not been identified have a proper burial at the WTC?? To btch and complain about a piece of debris which gave millions of people hope in a dark dark time, regardless of their religious or non-religious beliefs??!! These people need to get a grip!!
    Last edited by RspctFrmCalgary; 09-09-2003 at 10:59 AM.
    September 11th - Never Forget

    I respect firefighters and emergency workers worldwide. Thank you for what you do.

    Sheri
    IACOJ CRUSTY CONVENTION CHAIR
    Honorary Flatlander

    RAY WAS HERE FIRST

  7. #7
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    47

    Default

    Originally posted by CJMinick390
    I agree with Pfire on this one. While you have a right to express your opinion in the US, others also have the right to ignore you and/or tell you to bug off. It's gotten to the point where anything offends someone. There's lots of stuff going on that I don't like. I don't whine about it, I ignore it. This is just a way for someone to jump up and down and say "look at me."
    Amen to CJMinick's post. I'm not particularly religious and strongly support efforts to separate government from religion and vice versa.

    As I understand it, the WTC cross was a naturally left there as part of the collapse (as unnatural the collapse was). I don't recall hearing anyone saying that the workers at Ground Zero cut the beams to actually FORM a cross. This is something that happened as a result of a major tragedy. Some people find their own particular comfort in seeing a christian symbol appear out of such destruction and may interpret it as a sign from God. Others, like myself, may see it as one symbol in a tragedy that has inspired 3,000+ symbols, including the now-famous number 343.

    Hope that made sense.

  8. #8
    District Chief
    distchief60b's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    6,413

    Default

    Niel...I do beleive you are correct.... Those two beams were cause as a result of a natural phenomenon.

    In response to the group.... I agree with those who say..."don't look!" If that does not work...MOVE! Try living in Afghanistan or Iraq...I don't beleive they have crosses there....just crosshares from a terrorist's gun!

    I see the reverand is biting his tongue
    Last edited by captstanm1; 09-09-2003 at 05:53 PM.
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  9. #9
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    887

    Default

    The rev is indeed biting his tongue.

    Come on, Rev, lets hear your thoughts.

    Tanker
    I.A.C.O.J. Firefighter/EMT-B

    "I'm gonna drill a hole in your skull and pump out all the stupidity"
    Gunny Ermey


    "Never underestimate the Power of Stupid People in Large Groups"


    Humpty Dumpty was pushed

    Polishing the Chrome on all the IACOJ "apparati"

  10. #10
    Forum Member
    RspctFrmCalgary's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Now in Victoria, BC. I'm from beautiful Jasper Alberta in the heart of the Can. Rockies - will always be an Albertan at heart!
    Posts
    6,329

    Default

    Yes, the debris fell naturally into the form of the cross. It wasn't "deliberately" raised on behalf of Christians. It WAS like Neil said, a symbol rising out of the destruction that many took comfort from.
    September 11th - Never Forget

    I respect firefighters and emergency workers worldwide. Thank you for what you do.

    Sheri
    IACOJ CRUSTY CONVENTION CHAIR
    Honorary Flatlander

    RAY WAS HERE FIRST

  11. #11
    Fire Chaplain
    IACOJRev's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    SE Michigan
    Posts
    534

    Default Re: WTC cross

    Originally posted by tanker5117
    The American Atheists objects to the cross at ground zero because they say it's a religious emblem.

    Ellen Johnson, president of American Atheists based in New Jersey, told The Trentonian newspaper that the cross is -- in her words -- ``a Christian religious advertisement.'' Johnson said allowing the cross to remain, is -- in her words -- ``an insult to everyone who doesn't believe in that particular religion.''
    The great Constitution of the United States guarantees a person's freedom OF religion - it protects the right to choose to worship however you wish. The Constitution does not guarantee freedom FROM religion.

    The law does not state that relious symbols and references cannot be displayed. It simply protects the citizens of our Nation from the government mandating a particular form of worship as the King of England did a few hundred years ago - thus causing a bunch of folks to move here and form the United States of America.

    I respect the American Athiests choice not to acknowlege the God whom I serve. However, if the members of this organization knew what they were doing, they would insist that every human and animal were killed, every tree cut down, every star removed from the sky. Because these are all things that HE created and they proclaim His Glorious Majesty.
    Resident Chaplain of the IACOJ

  12. #12
    MembersZone Subscriber
    CJMinick390's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Sitting on my Laa Laa waiting for my Yaa Yaa
    Posts
    1,042

    Default

    Well put, Rev.
    Chris Minick, P.E., Firefighter II
    Structures Specialist, MD-TF 1

    These statements are mine and mine alone
    I.A.C.O.J. Building crust and proud of it

  13. #13
    IACOJ Agitator
    Adze39's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    In a van down by the CT River!
    Posts
    2,771

    Default

    These people claim we, as Christians, are pushing our ideals upon them. However, by taking away a natural phenomenon and taking words like "Under God" out from the Pledge, they are forcing their beliefs on everyone else.

    If you don't want to see a cross...don't look at it!

    If you don't want to say "Under God"...don't say it!

    If you don't like "In God We Trust"...don't use our money!...oh wait...they don't complain about that.

    We don't force them to say or look at anything because we respect their rights. In just return, they should respect ours.
    IACOJ Agitator
    Fightin' Da Man Since '78!

  14. #14
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,584

    Angry

    I heard that "coo coo clock" on the Laura Ingraham show on the radio the other night last night while I was putting around in my garage.

    She stated that she would have no problem with the "Ground Zero cross" if the Atheists symbol was also displayed on the site...

    What a (expletive deleted) hypocrite!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  15. #15
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    887

    Default

    you mean there is an atheists sysmbol? what is it, nothing?


    Tanker
    I.A.C.O.J. Firefighter/EMT-B

    "I'm gonna drill a hole in your skull and pump out all the stupidity"
    Gunny Ermey


    "Never underestimate the Power of Stupid People in Large Groups"


    Humpty Dumpty was pushed

    Polishing the Chrome on all the IACOJ "apparati"

  16. #16
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,584

    Default

    Originally posted by tanker5117
    you mean there is an atheists sysmbol? what is it, nothing?


    Tanker
    It's the atomic symbol with the letter A as the nucleus of the atom.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  17. #17
    Forum Member
    MOTOWN88's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    DETROIT
    Posts
    415

    Default

    Godless heathens. What is the symbol for an Athiest???

    I feel the need to go to confession now I am having bad thoughts and uttering many many bad words about this.
    I.A.C.O.J IRISH TATTOOED-HOOLIGAN

    DETROIT FIRE FIGHTER AND PROUD!

  18. #18
    Forum Member
    firemanpat29's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    florida
    Posts
    427

    Question

    Judgement day


    Catholic OH jesus
    Jewish OH lord
    Islamic OH alah
    Athiest OH SH*T

  19. #19
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    887

    Default

    from their website ( i have to go wash my hands now)

    "An international symbol for Atheism has long been needed. When American Atheists was formed in 1963, a contemporary scientific symbol was chosen; this acknowledges that only through the use of scientific analysis and free, open inquiry can humankind reach out for a better life."


    So, thousands of years of faith in all religions mean nothing? Give me a break.

    Tanker
    I.A.C.O.J. Firefighter/EMT-B

    "I'm gonna drill a hole in your skull and pump out all the stupidity"
    Gunny Ermey


    "Never underestimate the Power of Stupid People in Large Groups"


    Humpty Dumpty was pushed

    Polishing the Chrome on all the IACOJ "apparati"

  20. #20
    FIREMAN 1st GRADE
    E40FDNYL35's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 1999
    Location
    Malingering
    Posts
    3,643

    Default

    some people just don't get it......
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    ALL GAVE SOME BUT SOME GAVE ALL
    NEVER FORGET 9-11-01
    343
    CAPT. Frank Callahan Ladder 35 *
    LT. John Ginley Engine 40
    FF. Bruce Gary Engine 40
    FF. Jimmy Giberson Ladder 35
    FF. Michael Otten Ladder 35 *
    FF. Steve Mercado Engine 40 *
    FF. Kevin Bracken Engine 40 *
    FF. Vincent Morello Ladder 35
    FF. Michael Roberts Ladder 35 *
    FF. Michael Lynch Engine 40
    FF. Michael Dauria Engine 40

    Charleston 9
    "If my job was easy a cop would be doing it."
    *******************CLICK HERE*****************

  21. #21
    MembersZone Subscriber
    CJMinick390's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Sitting on my Laa Laa waiting for my Yaa Yaa
    Posts
    1,042

    Default

    If these people really want to help humankind reach a better life they would mind their own business. If they want to put their symbol up that is their right, but don't complain about the symbols of others just because they don't fit in with your belief (or is it non-belief?) system.
    Chris Minick, P.E., Firefighter II
    Structures Specialist, MD-TF 1

    These statements are mine and mine alone
    I.A.C.O.J. Building crust and proud of it

  22. #22
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    La Crosse, WI
    Posts
    33

    Default

    Excellent comments, all, especially Rev!

    La Crosse, WI, has been doing battle over a 10 Commandments monument in a City park, and a recent writer to the newspaper wondered what the plaintiffs would have to say about all the crosses in the public cemeteries. Imagine anyone trying to force removal of the crosses - and Stars of David - in Arlington??
    Joe O'Keefe

  23. #23
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Kansas USA
    Posts
    121

    Default

    As someone has already stated, "You cannot say anything without offending somebody." This, unfortunately, is so true. I think that something (I don't know what) in our culture has bred a generation that whines about every little thing. Its getting to be totaly obserd!

  24. #24
    Forum Member
    martinm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Northumberland, United Kingdom
    Posts
    1,156

    Default

    In the words of one of New Yorks Bravest, just days after 9/11...

    "You can kiss my royal Irish ***"

    I think that is a fitting reply to a statement such as this.

    Remembering the 343 from this side of the pond, always.
    United Kingdom branch, IACOJ.

  25. #25
    Forum Member
    zippo99's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Belgian Naval Base Zeebrugge
    Posts
    138

    Default

    I wonder what kind of money those atheist use to pay their bills.
    Doesn't it say on a dollar bill :" IN GOD WE TRUST"?
    *The BOSS rules*

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register